PVP: Breaking ZOS' myth "Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability"

Zbigb4life

EnOeZ wrote: »

Quote from ClockWork City Natch Potes:
"
Wrath: This passive ability has been replaced with the Revitalize passive, which increases the resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 12/25%.
Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore, as that effect has been moved to the new Revitalize passive. It continues to increase your healing received by 4/8%.
Developer Comment:
Spoilerhide
We want each of the three armor types to have unique trade-offs. Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability, while the disadvantage is its lower damage and healing power. To emphasize this distinction, we’ve removed the Wrath passive.
"

PVP is NOT PVE
Everyone agrees ?

What defines then PVP survivability ?
Would everyone agree that it is the ability to stay alive, whatever the mean ?

How to stay alive in TESO then ?

1. Stay and Block damage (PVE-style, ZOS-logic Style)
2. Roll dodge (medium armor style)
3. Heal through Damage (Healer Style, the "Wrath" change is also a nerf to healing)
4. Shield through (Magicka Sorc Style)
5. Clever positioning and re-positioning (Teleporting Sorcs Style, Ranger Archer Style)
6. Not running out of resources (Resource build style, not accessible to HA anymore, but still available to LA and MA)
7. Speed (sprint style + some class abilities like Warden + some Weapon abilities like DW + some gear like "Coward's Gear")
8. Become untargetable (Nightblade style, vanishing in the shadows)
9. Evasion (medium armor + some abilities in NB and Warden)
10. Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)
11. A combination of everything above of course (but let's not count this as a "true" 11th)

So on the 10 ways to stay alive in TESO, 1 is at pure Heavy Armor advantage... 1.

If one want to be very survivable in Cyrodiil, he/she should NOT slot Heavy Armor at all, except if they play in zerg and/or with a healbot to stand still in the middle of fights like in PVE.
Being survivable is not relying only on passive measures (like armor).

In fact being truly survivable in Cyrodiil consist of having at one's disposal the maximum number of options to evade/ignore/mitigate damage/deflect incoming damage. In fact, like in any fight DAMAGE itself is a much better defensive option since with enough damage your opponent will have to play defensively de facto reducing greatly your own incoming damage.

I would like ZOS combat developer in charge of Heavy Armor to review it's copy. NO Heavy Armor is currently NOT THE BEST OPTION for survivability in Cyrodiil.
Passive survivability is tenfold inferior to active survivability. With less resource and now (thanks to the absurd Wrath Nerf) No damage component at all, HEAVY ARMOR is simply the worst option by far for Cyrodiil active and smart Survivability (points 2 to 10 are not accessible or not specific to HA).

This Wrath change and comment is PVE biaised.
Let's wish one day there is a visionary PVP developer at Zenimax to understand HA combat specifics and needs and make it desirable and enjoyable one day.

• Bring back original built-in block cost
• Bring back Wrath (it takes so much time to build up, do not listen to youtubers who compares it misleadingly to MA Agility passive straight)
• Build In Heavy Attack Damage (additional +25%)
• Build In Counter CCs features (-25% duration on all debuffs including CCs and dots)
• Build in "Second Wind" like passive (+6% health, magicka and stamina over 6 sec after incurring hard CC)
• Or massively boost HA passive mitigation through armor rating (least fun option)

Any of this will do.

Run the stats, publish the stats @ZOS...
Out of Zergs, HA does NOT survive longer than LA and MA users in Cyrodiil.

Once again (stated it in numerous threads):
Active defense > Passive defense (we agree ?)
Moving, repositioning > Standing still (still agree ? Therefore...)
LA, MA > HA even for survivability (except if you like standing still ofc like a harmless flowerpot in hell)

CQFD*.
(*What was meant to be demonstrated in French)

You forget one thing: almost everyone wears heavy armor in PVP, why is that you think??? Because it's bad...

FloppyTouch

I run heavy bc it was the only way my mdk could survive long enough to lay down my dots. I can’t shield stack like sorcs I can’t disappear like NB I can’t heal like Templar so I have to stand there and hold my ground.

I already have very low damage 1,800 in pvp and even less now. When people talk about heavy armor and perma blocking I feel out of all the classes mdk gets forget about and hurts the most from these changes.

Oh well, I will adapt and over come for the 100th time

Sunburnt_Penguin

I can’t be bothered reading everyone else’s comments so ignore this if I’m repeating something but here’s why I think Heavy is best for survivability for Stamina builds:

1. It gives additional Health. This means that when coupled with a Medium jewellery set, you can go full Stamina enchants and still have 25+k health rather than 18-20k - essentially having more max stats that if you were in 5pc Medium. This additional Health also gives you more room for error because you’re less likely to be in a killable burst range.
2. While the added resistance is of marginal benefit compared to Medium when in a 1v1, it scales when fighting outnumbered. It also benefits builds which use Dizzy Swing much more than Medium because you’re exposed during the cast time.
3. The ability to restore Stamina while blocking reduces the importance to block tapping and allows you to hold block for longer periods with less impact to your Stamina than in Medium.
4. When you combine #3 with boosted Heavy Attack restore and the Shield Ulti (which synergises with Heavy, not Medium), you have an extremely easy way to both mitigate damage and get large amounts of Stamina back.

I mainly solo or duo and I’ve tried Medium on my StamWarden but even while switching up my playstyle, I’m noticeably less survivable than in Heavy. Of course it could be (and probably is) a L2P issue in me not fully understanding how to play Medium, however, to me, all that does is show that it’s easier to get more survivability in Heavy, compared to Medium, the less skilled you are.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Its completely and utterly ridiculous for the OP or anyone else to claim with a straight face that Heavy Armor did not give greater survivability than the other 2 armor types...

Anyone who has spent any significant time in Cyrodiil has withnessed first hand the amazing survivability of a well built Heavy Armor user who can withstand ridiculous amounts of damage, has mind boggling sustain, and can simultaneously hit hard enough to kill you...


As a result, Heavy Armor absolutely needed the nerfs its getting...

Heavy losing access to Shuffle is huge (and absolutely needed as the Heavy/Shuffle combo was very OP) and will do wonders at bringing Heavy in line with Light and Medium Armor...

hmsdragonfly

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Then why the meta? If HA wasnt offering so much then why was everyone in it? I mean, it’s just a question as I only wear medium armor, regardless of how bad people say it is.

It used to be meta in like 4 months ago. Since Morrowind, it depends on your class. People started realizing that for some classes medium outperforms heavy in open world PvP and BG no CP. Heavy outperforms medium in dueling, and that's it.

Now that you can't use Shuffle and Ward while wearing heavy, Heavy is not even viable now except for permablock builds.

hmsdragonfly

Zbigb4life wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Quote from ClockWork City Natch Potes:
"
Wrath: This passive ability has been replaced with the Revitalize passive, which increases the resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 12/25%.
Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore, as that effect has been moved to the new Revitalize passive. It continues to increase your healing received by 4/8%.
Developer Comment:
Spoilerhide
We want each of the three armor types to have unique trade-offs. Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability, while the disadvantage is its lower damage and healing power. To emphasize this distinction, we’ve removed the Wrath passive.
"

PVP is NOT PVE
Everyone agrees ?

What defines then PVP survivability ?
Would everyone agree that it is the ability to stay alive, whatever the mean ?

How to stay alive in TESO then ?

1. Stay and Block damage (PVE-style, ZOS-logic Style)
2. Roll dodge (medium armor style)
3. Heal through Damage (Healer Style, the "Wrath" change is also a nerf to healing)
4. Shield through (Magicka Sorc Style)
5. Clever positioning and re-positioning (Teleporting Sorcs Style, Ranger Archer Style)
6. Not running out of resources (Resource build style, not accessible to HA anymore, but still available to LA and MA)
7. Speed (sprint style + some class abilities like Warden + some Weapon abilities like DW + some gear like "Coward's Gear")
8. Become untargetable (Nightblade style, vanishing in the shadows)
9. Evasion (medium armor + some abilities in NB and Warden)
10. Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)
11. A combination of everything above of course (but let's not count this as a "true" 11th)

So on the 10 ways to stay alive in TESO, 1 is at pure Heavy Armor advantage... 1.

If one want to be very survivable in Cyrodiil, he/she should NOT slot Heavy Armor at all, except if they play in zerg and/or with a healbot to stand still in the middle of fights like in PVE.
Being survivable is not relying only on passive measures (like armor).

In fact being truly survivable in Cyrodiil consist of having at one's disposal the maximum number of options to evade/ignore/mitigate damage/deflect incoming damage. In fact, like in any fight DAMAGE itself is a much better defensive option since with enough damage your opponent will have to play defensively de facto reducing greatly your own incoming damage.

I would like ZOS combat developer in charge of Heavy Armor to review it's copy. NO Heavy Armor is currently NOT THE BEST OPTION for survivability in Cyrodiil.
Passive survivability is tenfold inferior to active survivability. With less resource and now (thanks to the absurd Wrath Nerf) No damage component at all, HEAVY ARMOR is simply the worst option by far for Cyrodiil active and smart Survivability (points 2 to 10 are not accessible or not specific to HA).

This Wrath change and comment is PVE biaised.
Let's wish one day there is a visionary PVP developer at Zenimax to understand HA combat specifics and needs and make it desirable and enjoyable one day.

• Bring back original built-in block cost
• Bring back Wrath (it takes so much time to build up, do not listen to youtubers who compares it misleadingly to MA Agility passive straight)
• Build In Heavy Attack Damage (additional +25%)
• Build In Counter CCs features (-25% duration on all debuffs including CCs and dots)
• Build in "Second Wind" like passive (+6% health, magicka and stamina over 6 sec after incurring hard CC)
• Or massively boost HA passive mitigation through armor rating (least fun option)

Any of this will do.

Run the stats, publish the stats @ZOS...
Out of Zergs, HA does NOT survive longer than LA and MA users in Cyrodiil.

Once again (stated it in numerous threads):
Active defense > Passive defense (we agree ?)
Moving, repositioning > Standing still (still agree ? Therefore...)
LA, MA > HA even for survivability (except if you like standing still ofc like a harmless flowerpot in hell)

CQFD*.
(*What was meant to be demonstrated in French)

You forget one thing: almost everyone wears heavy armor in PVP, why is that you think??? Because it's bad...

Heavy meta in PvP: StamDK, Magplar, MagDK, StamWD

Medium meta in PvP: Stamplar, Stamblade, StamSorc

Light meta in PvP: MagSorc, Magblade, MagWD

Yeah everyone wears heavy in PvP, especially those Magsorcs and stamblades.

Urza1234

EnOeZ wrote: »

[*] Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)

The OP also completely misses the fact that HA offers resistances. Instead the OP diverts into comparing resistances to damage shields and impen.

Shields
Pen
Yes shields are impervious to Pen, but thats irrelevant because shields are also unaffected by your own resistances. Enemies effectively have 100% pen against your shields.

Crit
Yes, its true that you cannot crit on shields, but you also cannot crit -with- shields. Relying on shields for mitigation makes your crit stat irrelevant defensively.

Scaling
Go look at the scaling of shields vs the scaling of direct damage abilities. All good direct damage fillers have at least a slightly better damage to cost ratio than even the most efficient shields do. DoTs have a considerably better ratio. The shield user is thus at a baseline disadvantage.

Effective Health
This is where shields are truly powerful, as they allow a glass cannon character to have an effective health pool double their normal size. Shields are thus frankly better at preventing burst than they are at actually mitigating damage over time, but they are powerful because they do both simultaneously.

Impen
The fact of the matter is that resistances reduce the damage that crits deal as well.

Impen from Traits
The value of 7 gold impens is 1806, ie 27% crit resistance. This value however is only subtractive from the enemy's crit damage multiplier, ie 150% crit damage becomes 123% crit damage. Thus the value of Impen scales with the crit chance of the enemy.
Consider an enemy with a fairly average crit chance of 40%
100% * (1 + 0.4 * 0.5) = 120% - sans impen
100% * (1 + 0.4 * .23) = 109.2% - avec impen
1.092 / 1.2 = 0.91
A full set of impen thus only reduces your average damage taken by 9%.
Heavy armor wearers have crit chances as low as 22%, making impen even weaker against heavy armor users or anyone who doesnt stack crit.

Resistances and Exponential Scaling
Consider that a full set of light armor grants only 7501 resistances, which results in 88.5% damage taken, whereas the minimum resistances in full heavy are 17431, which results in 73.4% damage taken. The ratio between these numbers shows that just by putting on heavy armor the wearer is already 20.1% tankier than the light armor wearer, taking 17.2% less damage. Heavy armor is thus baseline more defensively valuable than impen, regardless of what trait the HA has.
Consider that every 6554 resistance is 10% damage reduction, stacking to 50%. Let me demonstrate the multiplicative value of this system.
0.9/1.0 = 90% _ Your first 6554 armor makes you 11% tankier
0.5/0.6 = 83.3% _ Your last 6554 armor makes you 20% tankier
The value of each point of armor up to doubles in value as you approach cap. The value of the baseline difference between LA and HA means that each additional point of resistance an HA user garners, from CP, sets, etc, is thusly more valuable.

BohnT

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zbigb4life wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Quote from ClockWork City Natch Potes:
"
Wrath: This passive ability has been replaced with the Revitalize passive, which increases the resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 12/25%.
Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore, as that effect has been moved to the new Revitalize passive. It continues to increase your healing received by 4/8%.
Developer Comment:
Spoilerhide
We want each of the three armor types to have unique trade-offs. Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability, while the disadvantage is its lower damage and healing power. To emphasize this distinction, we’ve removed the Wrath passive.
"

PVP is NOT PVE
Everyone agrees ?

What defines then PVP survivability ?
Would everyone agree that it is the ability to stay alive, whatever the mean ?

How to stay alive in TESO then ?

1. Stay and Block damage (PVE-style, ZOS-logic Style)
2. Roll dodge (medium armor style)
3. Heal through Damage (Healer Style, the "Wrath" change is also a nerf to healing)
4. Shield through (Magicka Sorc Style)
5. Clever positioning and re-positioning (Teleporting Sorcs Style, Ranger Archer Style)
6. Not running out of resources (Resource build style, not accessible to HA anymore, but still available to LA and MA)
7. Speed (sprint style + some class abilities like Warden + some Weapon abilities like DW + some gear like "Coward's Gear")
8. Become untargetable (Nightblade style, vanishing in the shadows)
9. Evasion (medium armor + some abilities in NB and Warden)
10. Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)
11. A combination of everything above of course (but let's not count this as a "true" 11th)

So on the 10 ways to stay alive in TESO, 1 is at pure Heavy Armor advantage... 1.

If one want to be very survivable in Cyrodiil, he/she should NOT slot Heavy Armor at all, except if they play in zerg and/or with a healbot to stand still in the middle of fights like in PVE.
Being survivable is not relying only on passive measures (like armor).

In fact being truly survivable in Cyrodiil consist of having at one's disposal the maximum number of options to evade/ignore/mitigate damage/deflect incoming damage. In fact, like in any fight DAMAGE itself is a much better defensive option since with enough damage your opponent will have to play defensively de facto reducing greatly your own incoming damage.

I would like ZOS combat developer in charge of Heavy Armor to review it's copy. NO Heavy Armor is currently NOT THE BEST OPTION for survivability in Cyrodiil.
Passive survivability is tenfold inferior to active survivability. With less resource and now (thanks to the absurd Wrath Nerf) No damage component at all, HEAVY ARMOR is simply the worst option by far for Cyrodiil active and smart Survivability (points 2 to 10 are not accessible or not specific to HA).

This Wrath change and comment is PVE biaised.
Let's wish one day there is a visionary PVP developer at Zenimax to understand HA combat specifics and needs and make it desirable and enjoyable one day.

• Bring back original built-in block cost
• Bring back Wrath (it takes so much time to build up, do not listen to youtubers who compares it misleadingly to MA Agility passive straight)
• Build In Heavy Attack Damage (additional +25%)
• Build In Counter CCs features (-25% duration on all debuffs including CCs and dots)
• Build in "Second Wind" like passive (+6% health, magicka and stamina over 6 sec after incurring hard CC)
• Or massively boost HA passive mitigation through armor rating (least fun option)

Any of this will do.

Run the stats, publish the stats @ZOS...
Out of Zergs, HA does NOT survive longer than LA and MA users in Cyrodiil.

Once again (stated it in numerous threads):
Active defense > Passive defense (we agree ?)
Moving, repositioning > Standing still (still agree ? Therefore...)
LA, MA > HA even for survivability (except if you like standing still ofc like a harmless flowerpot in hell)

CQFD*.
(*What was meant to be demonstrated in French)

You forget one thing: almost everyone wears heavy armor in PVP, why is that you think??? Because it's bad...

Heavy meta in PvP: StamDK, Magplar, MagDK, StamWD

Medium meta in PvP: Stamplar, Stamblade, StamSorc

Light meta in PvP: MagSorc, Magblade, MagWD

Yeah everyone wears heavy in PvP, especially those Magsorcs and stamblades.

Stamplar is so bad in medium armor i can't find words for it.
Jabs lock you out of dodge roll meaning you take the full dmg of the enemy on just your base resistances which are ofc much higher of you run heavy, the 8% healing help a lot aswell as the other passives.
Stamplar is the class that has the least chance of surviving Soulstrike due to bad mobility, problems with using a permablock build due to how jabs work. In heavy i can kinda survive a good Soulstrike attempt (curse, fury + Soul assault) in medium i have problems surviving against one pleb that just uses SA without dots.

Medium is just so bad and has so many counters that only stamnb can truely use it while being strong all other specs die too fast with no counterplay available

EnOeZ

Malic wrote: »

Anyway, the other armor lines needed a buff, wrath was OP because it as stacking with fury sets so you could take damage, while increasing your weap damage. Its counter intuitive to what armor should be doing. Meaning you take damage you armor should be DECREASING in viability it was just the opposite.

What a lack of vision!
Needless to say I heavily disagree!

So pushing the logic, since your armor should decrease in efficiency the more you get hits, you have two options:
-either HA users playing on front lines always get close to no benefit from their armor (they keep getting hits) => useless
-either HA is a hell of effective since it would be heavily decreased by hits from opponents (=> then would be used for range and gank ???) => overpowered and missing targeted melee fighters.

As you can see, from a gameplay perspective, you ought to NOT follow your prescriptions since it offers no desirable equilibrium.

EnOeZ

Dragath wrote: »

i agree that heavy armor should be about survivability, but they would have to change armor passives AND sets.
reduce the damage HA sets can do, compensate with more defensive stats and better HA passives.
medium armor as "the" stamina armor.
light armor as "the" magicka armor.
they made a mistake when giving some of the best damage sets to HA, instead of MA.

I have another vision I would like support from:
MA=Stamina -ok
LA=Magicka -ok
HA=Health Ultimate

Because I do not consider "health" a resource like stam and magic are.
Ultimate generation should be 3rd resource of the game and granted to HA.

EnOeZ

Zbigb4life wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Quote from ClockWork City Natch Potes:
"
Wrath: This passive ability has been replaced with the Revitalize passive, which increases the resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 12/25%.
Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore, as that effect has been moved to the new Revitalize passive. It continues to increase your healing received by 4/8%.
Developer Comment:
Spoilerhide
We want each of the three armor types to have unique trade-offs. Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability, while the disadvantage is its lower damage and healing power. To emphasize this distinction, we’ve removed the Wrath passive.
"

PVP is NOT PVE
Everyone agrees ?

What defines then PVP survivability ?
Would everyone agree that it is the ability to stay alive, whatever the mean ?

How to stay alive in TESO then ?

1. Stay and Block damage (PVE-style, ZOS-logic Style)
2. Roll dodge (medium armor style)
3. Heal through Damage (Healer Style, the "Wrath" change is also a nerf to healing)
4. Shield through (Magicka Sorc Style)
5. Clever positioning and re-positioning (Teleporting Sorcs Style, Ranger Archer Style)
6. Not running out of resources (Resource build style, not accessible to HA anymore, but still available to LA and MA)
7. Speed (sprint style + some class abilities like Warden + some Weapon abilities like DW + some gear like "Coward's Gear")
8. Become untargetable (Nightblade style, vanishing in the shadows)
9. Evasion (medium armor + some abilities in NB and Warden)
10. Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)
11. A combination of everything above of course (but let's not count this as a "true" 11th)

So on the 10 ways to stay alive in TESO, 1 is at pure Heavy Armor advantage... 1.

If one want to be very survivable in Cyrodiil, he/she should NOT slot Heavy Armor at all, except if they play in zerg and/or with a healbot to stand still in the middle of fights like in PVE.
Being survivable is not relying only on passive measures (like armor).

In fact being truly survivable in Cyrodiil consist of having at one's disposal the maximum number of options to evade/ignore/mitigate damage/deflect incoming damage. In fact, like in any fight DAMAGE itself is a much better defensive option since with enough damage your opponent will have to play defensively de facto reducing greatly your own incoming damage.

I would like ZOS combat developer in charge of Heavy Armor to review it's copy. NO Heavy Armor is currently NOT THE BEST OPTION for survivability in Cyrodiil.
Passive survivability is tenfold inferior to active survivability. With less resource and now (thanks to the absurd Wrath Nerf) No damage component at all, HEAVY ARMOR is simply the worst option by far for Cyrodiil active and smart Survivability (points 2 to 10 are not accessible or not specific to HA).

This Wrath change and comment is PVE biaised.
Let's wish one day there is a visionary PVP developer at Zenimax to understand HA combat specifics and needs and make it desirable and enjoyable one day.

• Bring back original built-in block cost
• Bring back Wrath (it takes so much time to build up, do not listen to youtubers who compares it misleadingly to MA Agility passive straight)
• Build In Heavy Attack Damage (additional +25%)
• Build In Counter CCs features (-25% duration on all debuffs including CCs and dots)
• Build in "Second Wind" like passive (+6% health, magicka and stamina over 6 sec after incurring hard CC)
• Or massively boost HA passive mitigation through armor rating (least fun option)

Any of this will do.

Run the stats, publish the stats @ZOS...
Out of Zergs, HA does NOT survive longer than LA and MA users in Cyrodiil.

Once again (stated it in numerous threads):
Active defense > Passive defense (we agree ?)
Moving, repositioning > Standing still (still agree ? Therefore...)
LA, MA > HA even for survivability (except if you like standing still ofc like a harmless flowerpot in hell)

CQFD*.
(*What was meant to be demonstrated in French)

You forget one thing: almost everyone wears heavy armor in PVP, why is that you think??? Because it's bad...

I already answered to this.

EnOeZ

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Its completely and utterly ridiculous for the OP or anyone else to claim with a straight face that Heavy Armor did not give greater survivability than the other 2 armor types...

Anyone who has spent any significant time in Cyrodiil has withnessed first hand the amazing survivability of a well built Heavy Armor user who can withstand ridiculous amounts of damage, has mind boggling sustain, and can simultaneously hit hard enough to kill you...


As a result, Heavy Armor absolutely needed the nerfs its getting...

Heavy losing access to Shuffle is huge (and absolutely needed as the Heavy/Shuffle combo was very OP) and will do wonders at bringing Heavy in line with Light and Medium Armor...

If you are comparing robot-playing, you are right.
I am not a robot.

If you can use abilities and brain, you are wrong and I explained why.

EnOeZ

Urza1234 wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

[*] Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)

The OP also completely misses the fact that HA offers resistances. Instead the OP diverts into comparing resistances to damage shields and impen.

Shields
Pen
Yes shields are impervious to Pen, but thats irrelevant because shields are also unaffected by your own resistances. Enemies effectively have 100% pen against your shields.

Crit
Yes, its true that you cannot crit on shields, but you also cannot crit -with- shields. Relying on shields for mitigation makes your crit stat irrelevant defensively.

Scaling
Go look at the scaling of shields vs the scaling of direct damage abilities. All good direct damage fillers have at least a slightly better damage to cost ratio than even the most efficient shields do. DoTs have a considerably better ratio. The shield user is thus at a baseline disadvantage.

Effective Health
This is where shields are truly powerful, as they allow a glass cannon character to have an effective health pool double their normal size. Shields are thus frankly better at preventing burst than they are at actually mitigating damage over time, but they are powerful because they do both simultaneously.

Impen
The fact of the matter is that resistances reduce the damage that crits deal as well.

Impen from Traits
The value of 7 gold impens is 1806, ie 27% crit resistance. This value however is only subtractive from the enemy's crit damage multiplier, ie 150% crit damage becomes 123% crit damage. Thus the value of Impen scales with the crit chance of the enemy.
Consider an enemy with a fairly average crit chance of 40%
100% * (1 + 0.4 * 0.5) = 120% - sans impen
100% * (1 + 0.4 * .23) = 109.2% - avec impen
1.092 / 1.2 = 0.91
A full set of impen thus only reduces your average damage taken by 9%.
Heavy armor wearers have crit chances as low as 22%, making impen even weaker against heavy armor users or anyone who doesnt stack crit.

Resistances and Exponential Scaling
Consider that a full set of light armor grants only 7501 resistances, which results in 88.5% damage taken, whereas the minimum resistances in full heavy are 17431, which results in 73.4% damage taken. The ratio between these numbers shows that just by putting on heavy armor the wearer is already 20.1% tankier than the light armor wearer, taking 17.2% less damage. Heavy armor is thus baseline more defensively valuable than impen, regardless of what trait the HA has.
Consider that every 6554 resistance is 10% damage reduction, stacking to 50%. Let me demonstrate the multiplicative value of this system.
0.9/1.0 = 90% _ Your first 6554 armor makes you 11% tankier
0.5/0.6 = 83.3% _ Your last 6554 armor makes you 20% tankier
The value of each point of armor up to doubles in value as you approach cap. The value of the baseline difference between LA and HA means that each additional point of resistance an HA user garners, from CP, sets, etc, is thusly more valuable.

You are both precise and confusing. I don't understand your point.
When did I forego HA resistances, it is my point one...

SugaComa

VaranisArano wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

The problem with heavy armour for me is heavy armour should be cumbersome it should be slow it should have something on it that while it allows you to stack stamina so you can hit like a truck it should also protect against being hit like a truck

Problem is the game offers nothing in the way of weight

Players in heavy armour should be made slower, and certainly should see them building magicka builds utilising graveyard armour and zipping around at speeds to that of a lycra wearing sprinter which is what was happening

Armour should be weighted and more weight you add the slower you get ... But the added weight should offer more physical protection reducing all physical damage type but not magic damage

TLDR
switching from all light to all heavy with only 10k stamina should have me almost come to a stop not still run around like I'm wearing my pyjamas

Strangely enough, that's how my MagDK tank feels like when she's jogging behind all those speedy stamDPS players who just want the dungeon over with in the least amount of time possible.

On a more historical note, heavy armor is not quite as cumbersome as you seem to think it is. Knights in plate armor could be quite athletic and move surprisingly quickly. That's because armor of any type was designed for people to move and fight in it, and you can't move and fight well if your armor is weighing you down too much.

In a nod towards game design, if you want to move slower, that's on you. There's a walk toggle that you can use when you use heavy armor. Alternatively, may I suggest you play TES III: Morrowind where you can enjoy the experience of traveling at a crawl until you raise your speed stat? This game lets you move at a speed that is pretty well balanced with how far you have to travel between areas so that it doesn't feel like you can't get anywhere.

Finally, if it really bothers you, consider that a player sprinting in heavy armor will either be out of stamina soon or has invested enough points into stamina to make the sprinting believable. (Tip: don't let your immersion be the reason you suggest nerfing other players when it comes to something essential to exploring the game.)

Hi I'm not asking for a nerf, I can run 5 heavy or 5 light julianos and the difference in magica regen and damage out put is marginal between the two, but going medium and I really feel the loss in magica.

What I'm trying to say is maybe we should have it so light boosts magica, medium stamina and heavy health

If I go to a craft table to build a julianos set then the perks would adapt to what I create the armour weight in

Combat speed and riding speed don't need be changed I was using that merely as an example to illustrate my point

Chilly-McFreeze

Who in the right mind runs 5 medium on a mag char? I can only imagine you mean the difference between stamina in medium and heavy. And with the recent changes to Wrath and armor skills you will definitely experience a difference in damage and mobility - at least if you concern the passives only. Specific sets are a topic of its own.

Also neither light nor heavy boost max magicka.

If you want a "stamina julianos", use hunding's. Not everything should be the same. It should make a difference if I choose magicka or stamina and having the exact sets for both pools would make that choice further pointless.

Also, I doubt you feel no difference in dmg and resource management in heavy and light. 10% cost reduction, 2.2k crit and 4.9k penetration are definitely noticable. All I could agree on is that Constitution can outperform Recovery in certain situations.