Momentum moved to FG (DISCUSSION)

Vesper_BR · October 2017

Hi guys,

I don't know if we already have a post about this discussion, so let us theorycraft and talk about one move that would compensate the adjustments to heavy armor at the same time would create more diversity on Stam builds.
Allowing for example, dual bars of same type of weapons.

What do you guys think about it?
Momentum should be moved to fighters guild?
What skill could be traded?
What are Implications of this change?

Let us discuss and please try to be polite and unbiased on your comments.

Thanks

Vesper_BR · October 2017

I would be very pleased with this change that would allow me to play with Stam dk using sword and board in medium armor in PvP without depending on heavy.
And other option would be dual wield a d bow on nightblade, I really prefer to use dual over two handed, and the need of rally is what make us use two handed to have the heal and wd buff.

Tannus15 · October 2017

Momentum (well, Rally really) is probably the strongest and most defining ability in the two-handed skill line.
Moving it to the fighters guild would basically gut the weapon line.

If any stam heal should be moved to the fighters guild line it should be Vigor, but that's a different discussion and it's been discussed to death.

DDuke · October 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

Momentum (well, Rally really) is probably the strongest and most defining ability in the two-handed skill line.
Moving it to the fighters guild would basically gut the weapon line.

If any stam heal should be moved to the fighters guild line it should be Vigor, but that's a different discussion and it's been discussed to death.

Crit Rush
Reverse Slice
Brawler (with Master Weapon next patch)
Better passives

There's a lot more reasons to use 2H than just Rally.

kyle.wilson · October 2017

This has been mentioned before.
And no it shouldn't be done.
Stop looking for a way to avoid pvp to get vigor.

Strider__Roshin · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Momentum (well, Rally really) is probably the strongest and most defining ability in the two-handed skill line.
Moving it to the fighters guild would basically gut the weapon line.

If any stam heal should be moved to the fighters guild line it should be Vigor, but that's a different discussion and it's been discussed to death.

Crit Rush
Reverse Slice
Brawler (with Master Weapon next patch)
Better passives

There's a lot more reasons to use 2H than just Rally.

Lol no, not really. I'm not oppose to this change though. It would be nice to not be handicapped for the sake of using Rally.

Vesper_BR · October 2017

It's not about avoiding PvP to get vigor, since these two skills have different purposes, I think about the burst healing being available to Stam classz without being forced to run 2h, and snare removal by the same reasons.
Magicka based characters have access to major sorcery via mages guild, would be fair enough to provide Stam characters to have acess to equivalent buff.

Another thing is that maybe creating another buff that allowed Stam player acess to some kind of stamina steal or life steal, would make two handed more appealing.
Not mentioning that it's a weapon line that have acess to gap closer and execute. What other weapons don't.
Like I said before, let us chill. It's just a theorycraft.

Vesper_BR · October 2017

My two choices of replacing it are rearming trap (for logical reasons of magicka toons abusing it to get more DPS) or a buffed version of circle of protection (one that maybe would be pbaoe and dispelled it player switch to another weapon type).

Vesper_BR · October 2017

kyle.wilson wrote: »

This has been mentioned before.
And no it shouldn't be done.
Stop looking for a way to avoid pvp to get vigor.

Why would one think it? Vigor is much easy to get... I have it on every character... I didn't even thought about it... Lol

Tannus15 · October 2017

Vesper_BR wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

This has been mentioned before.
And no it shouldn't be done.
Stop looking for a way to avoid pvp to get vigor.

Why would one think it? Vigor is much easy to get... I have it on every character... I didn't even thought about it... Lol

Because it's the only stamina heal available other than Momentum?

Vesper_BR wrote: »

I would be very pleased with this change that would allow me to play with Stam dk using sword and board in medium armor in PvP without depending on heavy.
And other option would be dual wield a d bow on nightblade, I really prefer to use dual over two handed, and the need of rally is what make us use two handed to have the heal and wd buff.

Wait what? Stam DK has easy access to major brutality, and you've got vigor, pots and green dragon blood, why do you need rally?
So you want major brutality on your bow/bow sniper.
Just use pots.
how about we don't take away the main feature of two-handed skill line just so your bow/bow niche build doesn't have to use pots.

I mean, wouldn't it just make more sense to ask for silver bolts to get a morph which adds major brutality, like daggers on the DW line?

Vesper_BR · October 2017

The problem is the healing it provides and snare removal (what many players are asking for heavy armor balances and since it's not available to have either at same time, it's vary fair),
Making rally to be a defining feature of two handed is some kind of misconcept, since two handed is a DD weapon by nature... Why not switching vigor over rally? I don't think just about dks... Stam Templars need it too... It would not destroy any existing two handed build (since every one has access to fighters guild) and at the same time it would create a big opportunity to balance classes and create freedom of choices.

SodanTok · October 2017

Momentum is wrong choice to pick and FG is bad skill line to put it into.

What is really needed is proper stam burst heal (like spores on warden), because it does not really make sense why there is tens of useless skills yet only 2 stam (available to all) stam heals. Momentum is 2H skill and 2H it should remain.

As for skill line. Fighters guild is not good skill line to offer heal. It is good skill line to offer maybe some snare removal or major brutality buff, but not heal. As for where, one more bursty heal on some weapon could be enough. Even better would be if every class had healing skill. Undaunted skill line is kinda underused and nothing says that there could not be new skill added to soul skill line

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2017

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Hi guys,

I don't know if we already have a post about this discussion, so let us theorycraft and talk about one move that would compensate the adjustments to heavy armor at the same time would create more diversity on Stam builds.
Allowing for example, dual bars of same type of weapons.

What do you guys think about it?
Momentum should be moved to fighters guild?
What skill could be traded?
What are Implications of this change?

Let us discuss and please try to be polite and unbiased on your comments.

Thanks

I would rather Silver Leash be a single click Stamina-based Chain pull like DK has.

Vesper_BR · October 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Hi guys,

I don't know if we already have a post about this discussion, so let us theorycraft and talk about one move that would compensate the adjustments to heavy armor at the same time would create more diversity on Stam builds.
Allowing for example, dual bars of same type of weapons.

What do you guys think about it?
Momentum should be moved to fighters guild?
What skill could be traded?
What are Implications of this change?

Let us discuss and please try to be polite and unbiased on your comments.

Thanks

I would rather Silver Leash be a single click Stamina-based Chain pull like DK has.

It's would really improve the other classes tank utility in trials... A good thing to be analysed. But I don't have experience in pve tanking to give opinions.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

Vesper_BR wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

This has been mentioned before.
And no it shouldn't be done.
Stop looking for a way to avoid pvp to get vigor.

Why would one think it? Vigor is much easy to get... I have it on every character... I didn't even thought about it... Lol

Because it's the only stamina heal available other than Momentum?

Vesper_BR wrote: »

I would be very pleased with this change that would allow me to play with Stam dk using sword and board in medium armor in PvP without depending on heavy.
And other option would be dual wield a d bow on nightblade, I really prefer to use dual over two handed, and the need of rally is what make us use two handed to have the heal and wd buff.

Wait what? Stam DK has easy access to major brutality, and you've got vigor, pots and green dragon blood, why do you need rally?
So you want major brutality on your bow/bow sniper.
Just use pots.
how about we don't take away the main feature of two-handed skill line just so your bow/bow niche build doesn't have to use pots.

I mean, wouldn't it just make more sense to ask for silver bolts to get a morph which adds major brutality, like daggers on the DW line?

Lol, someone is jumping the gun.

Perhaps your assuming players based pn suggestions and confusing them in the process?

Regardless, green dragon blood is an absolute crap heal. Good luck spending 4k of your 9k magicka pool to heal yourself for 2k, you cant really be serious.

Igneous Weapons is hands down the worst possible source of major brutality. That is unless you are counting on someone else giving you the buff for free.

Momentum isnt close to the main feature of 2H nice try. It is one of their better skills but main feature? Get a grip.

All of that said. I dont think moving momentum to the FG is the best option, or even a realistic solution. Even if ZOS wanted to move it, it would come disguised as a skill change. So if the OP really wants a change, they need to market it as a change to existing skills in a way that isnt explicitly: "moving momentum to FG".

I think if you want major brutality from FG you need to look at expert hunter and buffs received from skill activation.

DDuke · October 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I think if you want major brutality from FG you need to look at expert hunter and buffs received from skill activation.

Buffing Expert Hunter could be a good idea. They could make it like a "reverse Rally": Major Brutality & activate to heal based on how much damage you've dealt to target.

Just an idea

Tannus15 · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I think if you want major brutality from FG you need to look at expert hunter and buffs received from skill activation.

Buffing Expert Hunter could be a good idea. They could make it like a "reverse Rally": Major Brutality & activate to heal based on how much damage you've dealt to target.

Just an idea

I really like this idea, however putting major brutality AND major savagery on the same skill that also buffs your weapon damage by 3% is pretty strong.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I think if you want major brutality from FG you need to look at expert hunter and buffs received from skill activation.

Buffing Expert Hunter could be a good idea. They could make it like a "reverse Rally": Major Brutality & activate to heal based on how much damage you've dealt to target.

Just an idea

I don't think getting a heal and Major Brutality is really an option at this point. Sorc's already get that as a class option, and 2H has it as a skill option.

Expert Hunter is weak so it could use some sort of additional bonus, Major Brutality would be nice and fits the angle of the skill. But I don't think it gets anything else if you get Major Brutality from it. Because it gives Major Savagery I don't know that they would even give it Brutality.

Giving Expert Hunter snare removal would be another option, but I'm not sure they would do that either.

Straight up copying other skills isn't really ZOS style, they will usually do something that is very like another skill but with something different ie range, cost, additional benefit.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I think if you want major brutality from FG you need to look at expert hunter and buffs received from skill activation.

Buffing Expert Hunter could be a good idea. They could make it like a "reverse Rally": Major Brutality & activate to heal based on how much damage you've dealt to target.

Just an idea

I really like this idea, however putting major brutality AND major savagery on the same skill that also buffs your weapon damage by 3% is pretty strong.

Agreed.

Maulkin · October 2017

It's a no from me. You put a stamina burst heal on a non-Weapon line and you've created even more S&B block tanks. It will be Elder Trolls Online.

You can't have all utility stuff removed from weapon lines and attached to Guild/Class/Misc trees. Your're removing compromises that are needed when choosing weapons.

For example, if you give a magicka burst heal to MG skill line (similar to your request, only for magicka) then Resto staff is finished as a weapon outside of dungeon healing. Every magicka build running Resto on the off-hand (Sorc and NBs mostly) will just switch to S&B which has way more survivability, extra-piece, more stats.

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

Maulkin wrote: »

It's a no from me. You put a stamina burst heal on a non-Weapon line and you've created even more S&B block tanks. It will be Elder Trolls Online.

You can't have all utility stuff removed from weapon lines and attached to Guild/Class/Misc trees. Your're removing compromises that are needed when choosing weapons.

For example, if you give a magicka burst heal to MG skill line (similar to your request, only for magicka) then Resto staff is finished as a weapon outside of dungeon healing. Every magicka build running Resto on the off-hand (Sorc and NBs mostly) will just switch to S&B which has way more survivability, extra-piece, more stats.

Magika builds have Entropy to provide heal over time +bonus dmg.
Magika builds therefore can slot Destro staff, resto, DW, SnB and have access to Entropy.

MagDK magSorc magDen magNB magPlar have access to Heal over Time +bonus dmg via Mages guild. Stamina has to go 2h??

Is momentum the most Iconic skill of 2h? So is Crit Rush, and so is Execution and so is DizzStrike and so is StamRecov on kill. Stop with the BS argument. You don't want to protect 2h, you want to keep other builds handicapped.

Cyro will be full of momentum SnB trolls? It allrdy is. Nobody except stamSorc has a reason to slot DW over SnB.

You no sayers know that adding Momentum to FG would help stam classes have MORE FUN, since they won't be locked behind 2h and you are using bullcrap pretend arguements to oppose the idea.

At any rate. If Momentum doesn't go to FG you will still be owned by those that you loathe, because we will be forced to use Momentum+CritRush+Execution+DizzStrike to pummel you down. Enjoy us.

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

Oh ye Zos.
Where is the variety? Every stamClass has to slot 2h for Momentum.

Where is the play as you want? I want to play without 2h. Am I limited only to overland contect with this handicapped build? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Tannus15 · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Oh ye Zos.
Where is the variety? Every stamClass has to slot 2h for Momentum.

Where is the play as you want? I want to play without 2h. Am I limited only to overland contect with this handicapped build? @ZOS_GinaBruno

You do know that outside of PVP no one uses 2h right? If you took a two-hander build into a vet trial you'd be laughed out.

Like, trials, maelstrom, vet dungeons, it's all DW & bow.

brandonv516 · October 2017

Absolutely no. There are compromises in place that make sense.

The recent changes in limiting armor skills to their respective armor type is a very good direction for this game.

Moving utility skills from weapon trees to make up for changes like the one above is an excuse for the lack of will to compromise.

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

brandonv516 wrote: »

Absolutely no. There are compromises in place that make sense.

The recent changes in limiting armor skills to their respective armor type is a very good direction for this game.

Moving utility skills from weapon trees to make up for changes like the one above is an excuse for the lack of will to compromise.

Remove Entropy from Mages Guild then to be in line with the direction of the armor changes that the game is rightfully is heading.
Answer that.

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Oh ye Zos.
Where is the variety? Every stamClass has to slot 2h for Momentum.

Where is the play as you want? I want to play without 2h. Am I limited only to overland contect with this handicapped build? @ZOS_GinaBruno

You do know that outside of PVP no one uses 2h right? If you took a two-hander build into a vet trial you'd be laughed out.

Like, trials, maelstrom, vet dungeons, it's all DW & bow.

The idea that DW is for PvE and 2h is for PvP is stupid. And those that proclaim it either have a vested interest or are not intelligent enough to understand how silly what they say is and how bad for the game these limitations are. I bet that they have an ulterior motive

brandonv516 · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Absolutely no. There are compromises in place that make sense.

The recent changes in limiting armor skills to their respective armor type is a very good direction for this game.

Moving utility skills from weapon trees to make up for changes like the one above is an excuse for the lack of will to compromise.

Remove Entropy from Mages Guild then to be in line with the direction of the armor changes. Answer that.

Entropy has nothing to do with the armor changes. It provides Major Sorcery. I'm guessing you are salty because FG still does not offer Major Brutality?

I would not be opposed to FG getting Major Brutality - but not in the form of Forward Momentum.

By the way, moving Entropy to either the destruction staff or restoration staff skill lines would not be as punishing as you want it to be for magicka players. Nice try though.

Vesper_BR · October 2017

And what about giving snare removal, and some kind of new mechanic healing to existent fighters guild skills? Or at least give some kind of stamina based healing to every class.
Sorc and nb have it integrated into skills that give healing over time (syphoning and crit surge), Wardens have tons of forms of healing itself. Dks and templars are the ones that suffer the most from absence of class heals.
What about transforming one of the morphs of cleanse ritual in one Stam based healing? So Templars have to choose from existing cleanse and a new kind of healing.
Dks could have dragon blood splited in three skills like syphoning from NBS is.
The base skill could like green dragon blood is live, the magica morph as coagulation and the stamina morph some kind of burst heall, increased maybe by players around you or something new...

Vesper_BR · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Oh ye Zos.
Where is the variety? Every stamClass has to slot 2h for Momentum.

Where is the play as you want? I want to play without 2h. Am I limited only to overland contect with this handicapped build? @ZOS_GinaBruno

You do know that outside of PVP no one uses 2h right? If you took a two-hander build into a vet trial you'd be laughed out.

Like, trials, maelstrom, vet dungeons, it's all DW & bow.

The idea that DW is for PvE and 2h is for PvP is stupid. And those that proclaim it either have a vested interest or are not intelligent enough to understand how silly what they say is and how bad for the game these limitations are. I bet that they have an ulterior motive

IMHO the two handed should be beast at trash mobs an damaging groups of enemies, and even causing more damage as low health you are. It could be a berserker kind of weapon. Great damage against more enemies, great burst against 1 enemy.
Dual wield instead could be the opposite, great defense against groups and more consistent damage with dots against single targets...

Opinions?

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

brandonv516 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Absolutely no. There are compromises in place that make sense.

The recent changes in limiting armor skills to their respective armor type is a very good direction for this game.

Moving utility skills from weapon trees to make up for changes like the one above is an excuse for the lack of will to compromise.

Remove Entropy from Mages Guild then to be in line with the direction of the armor changes. Answer that.

Entropy has nothing to do with the armor changes. It provides Major Sorcery. I'm guessing you are salty because FG still does not offer Major Brutality?

I would not be opposed to FG getting Major Brutality - but not in the form of Forward Momentum.

By the way, moving Entropy to either the destruction staff or restoration staff skill lines would not be as punishing as you want it to be for magicka players. Nice try though.

Ofcourse it wouldn't be as punishing. Thank you for showing us your agenda. A magika player that wants to prohibit fun options for stamina. Thank you for proving me right.

Entropy has nothing to do with the armor changes? And how does Momentum relate to that? Wasn't this your standing point of your arguement? You are losing the plot here furthering my point that you have bullcrap prete d arguements to cover up your ulterior motive, which you just showed to us with the "nice try" remark.

Entropy provides maj sorc +heal over time. Fixed it for you.

DocFrost72 · October 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Oh ye Zos.
Where is the variety? Every stamClass has to slot 2h for Momentum.

Where is the play as you want? I want to play without 2h. Am I limited only to overland contect with this handicapped build? @ZOS_GinaBruno

You do know that outside of PVP no one uses 2h right? If you took a two-hander build into a vet trial you'd be laughed out.

Like, trials, maelstrom, vet dungeons, it's all DW & bow.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-2h-build-pve/

I'm biting my tongue to keep it civil

Short response: 2h has fantastic cleave damage on a class already renowned for it, and it's survivability with brawler and surge is absolutely amazing.