Isn't it interesting how ZOS design hybrid...

Lyserus · October 2017

Hybrid usually doesn't work at all. However:
1.Hybrid sets like pelinal are the hardest sets to obtain in game.
2.Recipes/Enchant that provide tri-stats are the rarest and most expensive
3.Tho hybrid only works on tank （tho still not the best in anyway）, the only way for hybrid build to work （becomes one of the best build） is--- being emp with 100% boost on tri stat.

So ZOS want most hardcore, experienced players to be able to use it, but making it sucks so those players won't touch that??

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

It is interesting that we have a bunch of attribute points that we are supposed to allocate in HP stamina MP.
Somehow that is not the case.

It is interesting that ZOS gives us access to so many skills and proclaims variety yet all those skills cost magika or stamina, which narrows down the options (which is against variety)

It is interesting that ZOS gives us the ability to become ww vampires or stay normal, yet somehow everything performs better as a vampire.

Tommy_The_Gun · October 2017

At lest in PvE. ^

In PvP it is a completely different story. Even If you are fully stamina build often you need to use some utility skills that cost magicka. And "the hardest to obtain" sets is a very relative term.... For me it is much harder to get some trail / arena sets rather than crafted 9 trait sets....
And to be honest I tried out Pelinal's Aptitude set and it is not a "full hybrid set". It is rather a "semi - hybrid" set... you need to sacrifice A LOT to get at lest 4K weapon dmg in order for Pelinal's Aptitude set build to work.

Turelus · October 2017

As long as damage is tied to max stat value hybrids will never be viable.

Huyen · October 2017

9-traits sets just take a load of research-time to complete and make. Grinding trial-sets on the other hand usally take a lot longer (if you arent lucky on the RNG like me).

VaranisArano · October 2017

1. Hybrid Sets are extraordinary easy to obtain, assuming you have friends or guildmates with nine traits researched are the money to pay them for it.
2. You don't need the recipe in order to buy the tri-stat drink or the food. You just need gold, which is fairly easily obtained.
3. Okay, fair enough...assuming the tank even needs to be a hybrid, which they usually don't. Emp makes every build amazing, so if it takes Emp to make your hybrid build viable, its going to be outclassed by a non-hybrid Emp, if Emp-to-Emp combat were a thing which it sadly isn't.

At most, my builds need maybe one or two skills tied to their off-stat. Stam sorcs need crit surge and maybe Dark Deal. My Magicka characters need stamina to run, roll dodge, block, and interrupt and that's about it. My magDK tank does just fine in group dungeons with no attribute points put into stamina, though it would possibly help with resource management if I did.

VaranisArano · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It is interesting that we have a bunch of attribute points that we are supposed to allocate in HP stamina MP.
Somehow that is not the case.

It is interesting that ZOS gives us access to so many skills and proclaims variety yet all those skills cost magika or stamina, which narrows down the options (which is against variety)

It is interesting that ZOS gives us the ability to become ww vampires or stay normal, yet somehow everything performs better as a vampire.

1. You got points you could allocate in health, stamina, and magicka in Skyrim too. Somehow, if you were a warrior, you probably put points in health and stamina, or a mage you put points in health and magicka. Fighting with weapons costing stamina and fighting with magic costing magicka is not new to ESO.
2. From dividing up the skills between magicka and stamina, ZOS managed to create a system where players came up with effectively 10 classes + hybrids, the 5 stamina versions and the 5 magicka versions of the classes. While we all know in general what to expect from a magDK or a stamDK, a magblde vs a stamblade, etc. there's still a huge variety within those classes for how players play them, assuming they aren't following the meta or pre-made builds at every turn.
3. Everything performs better as a vampire, except for that pesky, pesky fire damage. Hope you have a good healer in certain dungeons or under siege in PVP. I'm honestly not sure what the complaint here is. Is vampire OP compared to the other two? Is WW underpowered? Like, what's the problem? From what I see, vampire is geared towards benefiting magicka players but has its drawbacks. Personally, I was unimpressed with it on a stam character I leveled as vampire in order to get the dye. Just like I thought WW sucked on my magicka character - it did, but it was amazing when I got WW on a stam character who actually had weapon damage, LOL.

Sixty5 · October 2017

The problem is that there isn't really anything that hybrid builds can do that normal ones can't.

Best you can do is use off resource as utility

stevepdodson_ESO888 · October 2017

Turelus wrote: »

As long as damage is tied to max stat value hybrids will never be viable.

this

Kolzki · October 2017

Turelus wrote: »

As long as damage is tied to max stat value hybrids will never be viable.

Agreed, this. At least for damage dealers in PVE.

This is also why Pelenias is an very niche set for partial hybrids as its 5 piece bonus only applies to weapon/spell damage while damage is also determined by max stat pools and crit.

Myyth · October 2017

I do admit I hate the stat system that gives you a bonus to damage the more points you put into a stat.

This forces DPS to dump every single point into Stam or Mag or suffer a DPS loss. Completely removes any variety, all my dps builds are the same. All points into one stat.
This also makes hybrids weak because youll do less damage if you split points. which also kills variety.

The game motto should be - "Play as you want!!!....and suffer the consequences..."

DocFrost72 · October 2017

Turelus wrote: »

As long as damage is tied to max stat value hybrids will never be viable.

I keep seeing this said, but the reality is even worse.

Spell pen vs weapon pen.
Spell crit vs weapon crit.
Spell dmg vs Weapon dmg.
Max magicka vs max stamina.
Elemental expert vs mighty.

Even if max stat did not affect your damage, there is just a buttload of barriers to successful hybridization of pve dps in the game at present.

Elsonso · October 2017

They made several design "mistakes" early on, and so we have what we have.

They originally expected hybrids, so they designed all the classes to by Magicka and all the physical weapons to be Stamina. The intent was that there would be no "Fighter" class, but instead everyone would be "Magic Users", some of whom used physical weapons. Magic is fun, right? They figured that people would put attribute points into all three, based on the mix class vs weapon skills. Then they made it so there was a bias, so virtually no one ended up doing it. The game design, as implemented, encouraged one or the other, mostly Magicka.

Unfortunately, once they realized this, they took the cheap way out and designed pretty band-aids. They decided to make "morphs" to sort of convert the Magic User classes (which are all of them) into something else. I say "sort of" because they never really accomplished this goal. All the classes are still Magic User classes, they just used words to "fix" the problem. They changed the word "Magicka" to "Stamina" and then rewrote the "spell definition" to use "stamina-sounding" words.

So, in the end, we still have four, now five, Magic User classes.

This all goes back to who ever it was that laid out the classes and attempted to blend the Elder Scrolls single player games with the typical MMO game. They got it wrong.

Basically, they never should have built the classes so they were all Magic User classes. For example, Nightblade and Dragonknight should have been stamina classes from the start. One-handed, two-handed, and bow would be stamina while Destruction and Restoration were magicka. In this way the class and weapon skills could be paired with better variability. The game design would support hybrids better, and supporting game design could blend with that. That is something for them to think about in their next game.

For this game, we are well beyond comprehensive fixes. However, they are squawking like they want to rework the class skills. The way to do this is to completely eliminate the idea of skill lines changing resources. If a skill line is magicka, it should be magicka all the way to the end. No "stamina morphs". Instead, there should be stamina skill lines that are always stamina and never change to magicka.

They won't do this, so no one needs to panic. They are busy simplifying the class design around "tank, damage, healer" so that it is clear what skill line to pick for the preferred role. In this way, they can trim the game down to three different Magic User classes, with 5 clever names, each one with magicka and stamina variants. Now when you see the Stamina DK Tank class character, you know not to expect damage. You need a Stamina DK Damage character, which underperforms, so you can kick them.

Kolzki · October 2017

I do wonder how many hybrids there are out there. The super high dps meta-builds that everyone talks about aren't required for the majority of the content. I bet a player could easily put dozens or hundreds of hours into a hybrid character without having any trouble.

For end game pve though hybrids are far from optimal. At that point it can be hard for a hybrid to find a group, which is pretty sad given how many hours a player may have put into their character before getting there.

SanTii.92 · October 2017

How is pelinal a hard set to get lol

Gilvoth · October 2017

Myyth wrote: »

The game motto should be - "Play as you want!!!....and suffer the consequences..."

amen! i agree
"Play as you want!!! and suffer the consequences"

Elsonso · October 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

The game motto should be - "Play as you want!!!....and suffer the consequences..."

amen! i agree
"Play as you want!!! and suffer the consequences"

Which is, honestly, to be expected. There are always trade--offs. I certainly never expected that any "play as I want" build would be optimal compared to other play styles. I expected that it would be possible, even likely, to pick combinations that simply are not as good as others.