how much more must the core game suffer because of CP?

Wing · October 2017

repost from pts:

the core gameplay, classes, armor, weapons, etc. are all so much weaker then they were years ago.

skills are far less fun, classes far less unique, lines of skills and passives, racials, ults, everything has been nerfed patch after patch.

why?

because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS has to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.

Examples including but not limited to:
-recovery was getting out of hand due to CP, so ZOS nerfed recovery from light, medium, heavy armor, and some races, instead of removing CP recovery
-blocking has always been an issue yet instead of removing CP nodes in relation to block cost they time and again nerf skills or base blocking and leave CP untouched
-damage of skills getting nerfed while damage CP remain unchanged
-stackable forms of mitigation and healing nerfed or made impossible to use yet damage mitigating CP remain unchanged.

ZOS

CP is NOT FUN, it is boring numbers on a page, its a spreadsheet, nothing else.

and yet skills that were interesting or could be fun, that do have cool animations or gameplay changing mechanics have continually been beat into the ground patch after patch.

if you removed the CP system characters would be in a substantially weaker state then they were a year ago let alone years ago because so much of the uniqueness and strength of characters has been nerfed and moved into a soulless, uninteresting, boring, power creep of a system known as the champion system.

and until CP is changed or removed, it wont stop, CP caps will increase, and classes, races, weapon lines, armor lines, passives, etc. will continue to be nerfed as a result.

its really quite sad, I rue the day this system was ever implemented T_T

quotes from the thread:

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I don't think your everyday casual gamer understands how much damage the CP system is doing to this game. Damage to class uniqueness, to build uniqueness, to the very way your character feels powerful charging into battle. The champion system has been slowly ruining all those things.

nolangrady wrote: »

Yet another post ZOS will not read or consider as feedback.

Chrysa1is wrote: »

ZOS. Please just listen to the players for once. Pause your crown crate ideas, pause anything that involves milking the cash from our wallets and just listen to what we, the players are saying. CP is problem, we all know it, you know it, so please swallow your pride and just admit it isn't working. The very fact that your nerf skills then raise the CP is proof in itself that you literally are ruining the ''diversity'' that you want, because it forces players to compensate by going for the thing that somewhat replaces what was lost.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I'm glad someone has resurected this discussion. CP is still killing the game. Nerfs to block when the points into Shadow Ward still remain. Nerfs to gap closers when damage boosts from CP still remain.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · October 2017

i was one of only a handful of people who protested the introduction of CP's to replace levels (Vet levels included)... and the amount of hate i got for voicing what i knew would happen (due to the fact that we were allowed on the PTS with full 3600 CP chars and could solo trials) compels me to prepare you for the backlash you will receive for posting this

but i for one at least commend you for it...more power to your elbow

Wing · October 2017

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

i was one of only a handful of people who protested the introduction of CP's to replace levels (Vet levels included)... and the amount of hate i got for voicing what i knew would happen (due to the fact that we were allowed on the PTS with full 3600 CP chars and could solo trials) compels me to prepare you for the backlash you will receive for posting this

but i for one at least commend you for it...more power to your elbow

well now its not speculation, its confirmed that its been bad for the game.

zaria · October 2017

Hybrid is broken because damage scales with resource + weapon / spell damage.
If you put everything into magic your magic abilities does more damage and you can cast more spells.
Its like replacing an 10 round magazine in an gun with an 30 round causes each bullet to do double damage and you would be able to shoot 3 time as much before reloading.

Still an hybrid build would need both spell and weapon damage so they would not be optimal but it might be worth using some class skills on an stamina build.

Wing · October 2017

zaria wrote: »

Hybrid is broken because damage scales with resource + weapon / spell damage.
If you put everything into magic your magic abilities does more damage and you can cast more spells.
Its like replacing an 10 round magazine in an gun with an 30 round causes each bullet to do double damage and you would be able to shoot 3 time as much before reloading.

Still an hybrid build would need both spell and weapon damage so they would not be optimal but it might be worth using some class skills on an stamina build.

okay yes that's true, I forgot to mention that.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · October 2017

How much more must the core game suffer because of PVP?

FTFY

Cpt_Teemo · October 2017

I left 3 months after launch then came back last december with 100 Cp, and by morrowind i was like Cp 500 then after 2 months into morrowind about cp 670 wasn't so bad imo.

Thannazzar · October 2017

The diminishing returns on CP benefits should be applied to base stats to precent glass cannons and min-maxed builds.

Personally I'd rather have CP than new gear level grinds every 6 months.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · October 2017

CP is cool for PvE in my eyes. CP in PvP is lame. Bring soft caps back and overcharge (what was it called again?).

Motherball · October 2017

Being a new player and just having reached cp100, I do not care for the cp system so far. I dont really feel like im gaining much power at all even if I stack points. I feel like i’m chasing cp160 for the gear access, but Im not really levelling up or advancing anymore. Maybe I just need a significant amount more.

I do like the idea of cp, but feel like the options are pretty lackluster. I was hoping to supplement my low crit and spell damage but was met with tiny increments of magic regen and passives that help people pick flowers faster. I also do not like being forced into each tree, because I have no need for extra defense at this time, so it feels like my cap is actually going to be 220 instead of 660. I apologize for my inexperience or if this is not exactly relevant to the OP.

Asardes · October 2017

I would like them to make a no-CP version of PvE where your stats and damage diminish but NPCs stay the same. Give special rewards for completing the content on this hardcore mode. It would give very strong players a challenge.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · October 2017

Thanks for re-posting this in the main discussion section. This needs more visibility.

I don't think your everyday casual gamer understands how much damage the CP system is doing to this game. Damage to class uniqueness, to build uniqueness, to the very way your character feels powerful charging into battle. The champion system has been slowly ruining all those things.

The controls have to go somewhere. If you have unlimited resources, no cooldowns, and raw damage multipliers, you have to nerf the skills themselves. As @Wing pointed out. Skills are fun. Numbers are boring. Why are we sacrificing skills, abilities, and sets that make our characters feel awesome in battle for a boring vertical progression treadmill?

@DeanTheCat pointed this out back in September 2015 I've had his post linked in my signature since then for all the good that has done.

The champion system must be destroyed for the good of this game. It is killing the fun of getting new gear. Killing theorycrafting, killing class identity, and choking the very life out of this game.

It is time for a group of heroes to come together and make a blood oath vowing to destroy the champion system, or get banned in the process.

For years we have sat by and watched as the champion system has ravages our gear, our class skills, our very identity. It is time to make a stand.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

How much more must the core game suffer because of PVP?

FTFY

Ahhh the eternal complaiing of pve only people that think being 5% less powerful against a raid boss is really a huge deal, and not realizing that being 5% weaker than someone in pvp is a big deal.

As for the OP, I agree, CP was a sloppy way to artificially have vertical progression. Personally I would prefer a system that allowed for a tritiary and fourth morph to each ability, which would create more unique gameplay, also add morphs to the passives in class, weapon, and armor lines.

I_killed_Vivec · October 2017

laced wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

How much more must the core game suffer because of PVP?

FTFY

Ahhh the eternal complaiing of pve only people that think being 5% less powerful against a raid boss is really a huge deal, and not realizing that being 5% weaker than someone in pvp is a big deal.

As for the OP, I agree, CP was a sloppy way to artificially have vertical progression. Personally I would prefer a system that allowed for a tritiary and fourth morph to each ability, which would create more unique gameplay, also add morphs to the passives in class, weapon, and armor lines.

How very dare you! ZoS told us repeatedly that the whole point of CP was to engender horizontal progression, not the vertical progression VR gave us

Now I like a bit of vertical progression, me. I enjoy struggling to complete content, growing in power and then being able to look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. I'm not an altaholic, so the removal of VR didn't do me any favours (I still like to do Cadwell's on a new character... tradition I suppose). But that vertical progression only works if they are constantly churning out new, harder content... and content has been somewhat thin on the ground.

Which is why we got CP and levelling... to distract us from a conspicuous lack of new content. Oh look, 1Tam and a continuous CP grind! That will keep me busy!!

But now everything is easy, and will only get easier as you progress through CP. Again, not a problem if you get new, hard content...

Jade1986 · October 2017

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

How much more must the core game suffer because of PVP?

FTFY

Ahhh the eternal complaiing of pve only people that think being 5% less powerful against a raid boss is really a huge deal, and not realizing that being 5% weaker than someone in pvp is a big deal.

As for the OP, I agree, CP was a sloppy way to artificially have vertical progression. Personally I would prefer a system that allowed for a tritiary and fourth morph to each ability, which would create more unique gameplay, also add morphs to the passives in class, weapon, and armor lines.

How very dare you! ZoS told us repeatedly that the whole point of CP was to engender horizontal progression, not the vertical progression VR gave us

Now I like a bit of vertical progression, me. I enjoy struggling to complete content, growing in power and then being able to look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. I'm not an altaholic, so the removal of VR didn't do me any favours (I still like to do Cadwell's on a new character... tradition I suppose). But that vertical progression only works if they are constantly churning out new, harder content... and content has been somewhat thin on the ground.

Which is why we got CP and levelling... to distract us from a conspicuous lack of new content. Oh look, 1Tam and a continuous CP grind! That will keep me busy!!

But now everything is easy, and will only get easier as you progress through CP. Again, not a problem if you get new, hard content...

I agree with you. A problem amongst a lot of mmos is they make content, then slow down creating content and focus on crown store type nonsense, instead of bringing out more content to encourage more subs. Its a short term gratification thing they do , its gross tbh.

red_emu · October 2017

Completely agree with every word. With my favorite PvP guilds playing in non-CP only, it feels like my character gets a huge Nerf every time I enter Cyrodiil. When you strip CP in current state of the game every character feels lackluster and weak

I'm afraid we are way to much into CP system now to reverse it. ZOS will continue to make us feel weaker and weaker, and overland and end game PvE easier and easier until it's a mush of vanilla ice cream where classes don't matter, sets don't matter and the only challenge will be a CP pvP campaign.

Nevertheless, I am still enjoying the game while I can. There is so much content and beautiful settings and amazing game play that after 2000 hours I'm still finding things to do. There was a lot of work put into this game, I just wish the devs would listen to the community that makes what the game is, an MMO in elder scrolls setting.

Kodrac · October 2017

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

But now everything is easy, and will only get easier as you progress through CP. Again, not a problem if you get new, hard content...

New content... like flashy horsies and bears and ***? A dozen or so new quests on a pretty island somewhere? Because that's all the new content you'll be getting.

Drummerx04 · October 2017

Unfortunately, scrapping the CP system would be equivalent to ZOS admitting that they made a mistake which the higher ups will never allow.

I can't really comment on the CP itself as I've never know a time where CP wasn't a thing, (but I remember CP enabled BWB PvP as a brand new player... which was bull). I can't imagine the Wrobalance that would arise from the chaos of a CP removal, but I imagine it would start with, "A sorc killed me, nerf sorcs"

But hey at least crystal blast looks better now! Oh wait it doesn't, they just nerfed frags.... DOWN WITH CP GIVE ME MY STUN BACK

Also give the poor templars the shard stun back so they'll stop hitting me with javelin so much.

BrianDavion · October 2017

Thannazzar wrote: »

The diminishing returns on CP benefits should be applied to base stats to precent glass cannons and min-maxed builds.

Personally I'd rather have CP than new gear level grinds every 6 months.

Although I'd like to see 170-180 gear added just so that they could stop with the red weapons

red_emu · October 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

But now everything is easy, and will only get easier as you progress through CP. Again, not a problem if you get new, hard content...

New content... like flashy horsies and bears and ***? A dozen or so new quests on a pretty island somewhere? Because that's all the new content you'll be getting.

Wait! You found more than 12 quests in Vvardenfell?

Wing · October 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

But now everything is easy, and will only get easier as you progress through CP. Again, not a problem if you get new, hard content...

New content... like flashy horsies and bears and ***? A dozen or so new quests on a pretty island somewhere? Because that's all the new content you'll be getting.

well speaking on content when ZOS's world building team is able to do there own thing they do a good job (orsinium is testament to that) the problem is so much of the recent content has been ESO ports of TES locations (vvardenfell, gold coast)

I'm actually looking forward to the upcoming update because its an in house design and that means its actually new, not that I don't like revisiting old zones its just that with orsinium the build team seemed to find there stride, then were told to port old designs. . .

nolangrady · October 2017

Yet another post ZOS will not read or consider as feedback.

Lylith · October 2017

they should've just gone with v18, v20, etc. look at how c/p has 'evolved' since it's original inception; imo, it's really not been for the better.

Urza1234 · October 2017

BrianDavion wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

The diminishing returns on CP benefits should be applied to base stats to precent glass cannons and min-maxed builds.

Personally I'd rather have CP than new gear level grinds every 6 months.

Although I'd like to see 170-180 gear added just so that they could stop with the red weapons

Also PvE players would have less time to complain, they would be busy grinding out their new BiS.

Granted they would still complain but they would enjoy doing it more.

MehrunesFlagon · October 2017

Thannazzar wrote: »

The diminishing returns on CP benefits should be applied to base stats to precent glass cannons and min-maxed builds.

Personally I'd rather have CP than new gear level grinds every 6 months.

no

aeowulf · October 2017

Thannazzar wrote: »

The diminishing returns on CP benefits should be applied to base stats to precent glass cannons and min-maxed builds.

Yes. Diminishing returns is present on CP, but not on a lot of other things. To reduce the gap between a new player and a maxed cp, diminishing returns should be on most things, especially stats.

Issues bein the way % stack on reduction vs the way they work on amps, take the following example:

10,000 damage
with a 10% reduction is 9000
with a further 10% reduction is 8100
total change with two 10% reductions is 1900

10,000 damage
with a 10% amp is 11000
with a further 10% amp is 12100
total change with two 10% amps is 2100

difference between 2100 and 1900 is about 9%...

so whilst diminishing returns is present in reduction already, it it literally the opposite when amping up. This is why there are purpose build single role BIS builds. Cured by not stacking the amps, and always calculating from the base value (could also do this for reduction, which would fix things like the nord damage redux being pretty much useless, whilst on paper it looks awesome)

Jeremy · October 2017

Wing wrote: »

repost from pts:

the core gameplay, classes, armor, weapons, etc. are all so much weaker then they were years ago, and hybrids are still non existent despite having access to better sets then ever before

skills are far less fun, classes far less unique, lines of skills and passives, racials, ults, everything has been nerfed patch after patch.

why?

because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS has to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.

ZOS

CP is NOT FUN, it is boring numbers on a page, there are no skills in it, no flashy graphics or gameplay changing mechanics, just boring, flat, power, nothing else.

and yet skills that were interesting or could be fun, that do have cool animations or gameplay changing mechanics have continually been beat into the ground patch after patch.

if you removed the CP system characters would be in a substantially weaker state then they were a year ago let alone years ago because so much of the uniqueness and strength of characters has been nerfed and moved into a soulless, uninteresting, boring, power creep of a system known as the champion system.

and until CP is changed or removed, it wont stop, CP caps will increase, and classes, races, weapon lines, armor lines, passives, etc. will continue to be nerfed as a result.

its really quite sad, I rue the day this system was ever implemented T_T

CP is just a way to level after reaching the 50 cap. So I don't see why it's bad for the game. What would be worse for the game is if your player stopped progressing after level 50.

This isn't to say the CP system couldn't be improved with more interseting options - like abilities as you suggest. So I'm all for that. But I believe the system itself is sound.

Huyen · October 2017

laced wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

How much more must the core game suffer because of PVP?

FTFY

Ahhh the eternal complaiing of pve only people that think being 5% less powerful against a raid boss is really a huge deal, and not realizing that being 5% weaker than someone in pvp is a big deal.

As for the OP, I agree, CP was a sloppy way to artificially have vertical progression. Personally I would prefer a system that allowed for a tritiary and fourth morph to each ability, which would create more unique gameplay, also add morphs to the passives in class, weapon, and armor lines.

5% in pve is a huge deal, and could very well mean the difference between a kill and a full wipe.

Bashev · October 2017

The problem is that CP make PvE players feel extremely powerful. This exactly what they want. Let s be honest 90% of the PvE players dont want balance, they want to be really overpowered and this could be achieved with the current CP.

If only mobs were able to complain and post nerf topics

zaria · October 2017

Bashev wrote: »

The problem is that CP make PvE players feel extremely powerful. This exactly what they want. Let s be honest 90% of the PvE players dont want balance, they want to be really overpowered and this could be achieved with the current CP.

If only mobs were able to complain and post nerf topics

You want progression in PvE, you counter it with harder content.
CP is one way to do it and it works in ESO, the other common way is gear tires as in WOW, however wow don't have to gear options we have in eso, imagine the fun if they rater increased level cap and gear cap with 3 levels every dlc

srfrogg23 · October 2017

I’ve played my fair share of MMOs where character progression stops at max level, and becomes tied solely to gear progression. I wasn’t a fan of that. It’s just a sneaky way to funnel players into specific content types, like raiding.

I like the continuous character progression from CPs. I think it adds more to theory crafting. Not less. It equates to more numbers to work with and opens more opportunities for hybrid builds by filling in the gaps left by the weapon/resource system.

I’d rather not see the game get dumbed down by removing the CP system.