What’s with all the indirect nerfs to Stamina Dk this patch?

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2017

Riggsy wrote: »

Remove CP from PVP and all these issues go away.

Ah,

krathos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

What I want to know is why does everyone assume just because you use 1hd/shield you're a Block Bot

Lets take a fairly standard Stamina DK setup

Werewolf Hide/Fury/Bloodspawn

Most and I say pretty much damn near everyone of them...don't run Sturdy on that setup...you run impen

That is not a block bot setup, yet every time I see a post about how Heavy is overpowered in PvP, you have a bunch of people talking about how you have these heavy users running around blocking everything and doing massive damage.

These are TWO different setups....They're not the same..

It's not the perma block Stam dks, I havnt met one that could bring me near death. It's the mag dks perma blocking casting all their dots and Buffs Finishing with a leap never releasing block. I'm a solo player so I usually avoid them since my med armor dk doesn't have the deeps to affect the perma blocking. Either way a player shouldnt be able in my opinion to perma block indefinitely and still have really high dps

See that’s a problem I have; people are saying heavy armor is overpowered because ravaged and fury with permablocking; ravager and fury aren’t perms block setups and magicka dks you’re talking about don’t run those sets either. If you want to perma block on a magicka dk it’s generally impregnable armor with sturdy... and you can do that in light and be far more effective then heavy armor.

So what I think is people are dying to dks; and grouping them all together in some pile of builds and just not accepting they died.

Let's consider the block calculation:

BlockCost = (((180 + 30*EffectiveLevel)*(1 - Item.Sturdy)*(1 + CP.BlockCost))*(1 + Set.BlockCost + Skill.BlockCost + Buff.BlockCost) + Item.BlockCost)*(1 + Skill2.BlockCost)

So, full sturdy, 100 points into shadow ward CP tree and 1h/shield gives us a block cost of around 700. That can be triggered 4 times every second meaning when you're pressured even in this so called magdk permablock build is costing 2,800 stamina per second. You're not blocking very long like that outnumbered and you've sacrificed any and all damage sets already to get this far. The problem comes when you add in the block cost glyphs. That's where the real perma blocking comes from. Take a look at the calculation above and note that ITEM block cost is taken off second to last... after all major % reductions. A gold shielding glyph reduces the cost of block by 203. Run three of those and your block cost is now 95. That's where the big difference comes from. That's why no matter what ZOS does, such as the recent block nerfs, you will harm the normal player using block and always have perma blocking tanks. Changing the block cost from 2x per second to 4x per second didn't do anything to change the real perma tanks because they can get their block cost down to under 100.

Now, any magdk doing this isn't doing damage. This whole story people try to prop up that magdk can perma block these huge numbers and then kill people is ridiculous unless they are just absolutely the worst and most unaware players who are not healing, not using unblockable CC's such as fear, etc. MagDK can be a great pug stomper but its abilities have some of the highest costs, lowest damage modifiers, and the class has terrible mobility, useless and watered down defensive abilities, no execute, and relies heavily on DoT which is fairly useless in PvP. Not to mention it has some of the absolute worst passives in the game and the only ones worth a damn continue to be nerfed. Please, go look at DK passives compared to sorc, nightblade, and warden.

I play both StamDK and MagDK as well as other classes and I can tell you MagDK is the hardest to 1vX on by far and whenever I am on my other classes I literally just ignore the DKs and leave them for last because they're never a threat. Watch out for leap, maybe, that's the only burst you're going to see and it's predictable as hell.

People will forever complain about DKs, stam or mag, because we are forced to build tanky and that's annoying to people. Our class has been watered down horrendously over the years. I run 1h/shield resto and do not perma block and lean towards a high damage setup. That's my style and I find i have more success (and fun) with it solo than the impreg/desert rose build that is popular right now... and I still get accused of being a perma blocking piece of *** even when I only time my blocks to avoid burst, etc. Instead of ZOS fixing the DK class and giving them more options they continue to pigeon hole them into tanks and then everyone wonders why they're so tanky.

In summary:

- Change the block cost calculation to remove flat value glyphs before % values (like magicka/stamina cost reduction).
- Nerf the effectiveness of sets like 7th legion, fury, etc.

After that, you will see both stam and magicka dk are just one-dimensional watered down classes who are but a shell of their former selves crutching on game mechanics because their own class passives and actives just plain suck.

Completely agree on your summary and the paragraph about block costs. But I like to point a few things out:

"unless they are just absolutely the worst and most unaware players who are not healing, not using unblockable CC's "

I think that is a bit condescending. Even for good players it's hard to crack a permablocker. Only difference is, that they just don't let those tanks bait them into an endless struggle. Also, fear etc. good that every class has an unblockable and useful CC on live right now...

"relies heavily on DoT which is fairly useless in PvP"

I have to disagree. Since you use your build as proof of your arguments, I will do the same. I run a DW DoT build and I have far more fun and success than on a 2h burst build against anyone without a pocket Templar. Massive DoT pressure keeps people on their heels and, you know, not everyone runs or even could afford to run a cleanse. It's far less expensive to keep dots and debuffs up than to cleanse them all.

"the only burst you're going to see and it's predictable as hell"

I can imagine that every mag Sorc would like to have a word with you about predictable burst.

But then again, you are completely right about leaving the real offenders of problematic HA builds untouched. I still have no words about why a blanket nerf to all HA is a good thing when the issues lie elsewhere, when 1k+ dmg stats from sets, permablocking, undodgeable abilities and permasnaring seem to be completely fine to ZOS.

krathos · October 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Riggsy wrote: »

Remove CP from PVP and all these issues go away.

Ah,

krathos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

What I want to know is why does everyone assume just because you use 1hd/shield you're a Block Bot

Lets take a fairly standard Stamina DK setup

Werewolf Hide/Fury/Bloodspawn

Most and I say pretty much damn near everyone of them...don't run Sturdy on that setup...you run impen

That is not a block bot setup, yet every time I see a post about how Heavy is overpowered in PvP, you have a bunch of people talking about how you have these heavy users running around blocking everything and doing massive damage.

These are TWO different setups....They're not the same..

It's not the perma block Stam dks, I havnt met one that could bring me near death. It's the mag dks perma blocking casting all their dots and Buffs Finishing with a leap never releasing block. I'm a solo player so I usually avoid them since my med armor dk doesn't have the deeps to affect the perma blocking. Either way a player shouldnt be able in my opinion to perma block indefinitely and still have really high dps

See that’s a problem I have; people are saying heavy armor is overpowered because ravaged and fury with permablocking; ravager and fury aren’t perms block setups and magicka dks you’re talking about don’t run those sets either. If you want to perma block on a magicka dk it’s generally impregnable armor with sturdy... and you can do that in light and be far more effective then heavy armor.

So what I think is people are dying to dks; and grouping them all together in some pile of builds and just not accepting they died.

Let's consider the block calculation:

BlockCost = (((180 + 30*EffectiveLevel)*(1 - Item.Sturdy)*(1 + CP.BlockCost))*(1 + Set.BlockCost + Skill.BlockCost + Buff.BlockCost) + Item.BlockCost)*(1 + Skill2.BlockCost)

So, full sturdy, 100 points into shadow ward CP tree and 1h/shield gives us a block cost of around 700. That can be triggered 4 times every second meaning when you're pressured even in this so called magdk permablock build is costing 2,800 stamina per second. You're not blocking very long like that outnumbered and you've sacrificed any and all damage sets already to get this far. The problem comes when you add in the block cost glyphs. That's where the real perma blocking comes from. Take a look at the calculation above and note that ITEM block cost is taken off second to last... after all major % reductions. A gold shielding glyph reduces the cost of block by 203. Run three of those and your block cost is now 95. That's where the big difference comes from. That's why no matter what ZOS does, such as the recent block nerfs, you will harm the normal player using block and always have perma blocking tanks. Changing the block cost from 2x per second to 4x per second didn't do anything to change the real perma tanks because they can get their block cost down to under 100.

Now, any magdk doing this isn't doing damage. This whole story people try to prop up that magdk can perma block these huge numbers and then kill people is ridiculous unless they are just absolutely the worst and most unaware players who are not healing, not using unblockable CC's such as fear, etc. MagDK can be a great pug stomper but its abilities have some of the highest costs, lowest damage modifiers, and the class has terrible mobility, useless and watered down defensive abilities, no execute, and relies heavily on DoT which is fairly useless in PvP. Not to mention it has some of the absolute worst passives in the game and the only ones worth a damn continue to be nerfed. Please, go look at DK passives compared to sorc, nightblade, and warden.

I play both StamDK and MagDK as well as other classes and I can tell you MagDK is the hardest to 1vX on by far and whenever I am on my other classes I literally just ignore the DKs and leave them for last because they're never a threat. Watch out for leap, maybe, that's the only burst you're going to see and it's predictable as hell.

People will forever complain about DKs, stam or mag, because we are forced to build tanky and that's annoying to people. Our class has been watered down horrendously over the years. I run 1h/shield resto and do not perma block and lean towards a high damage setup. That's my style and I find i have more success (and fun) with it solo than the impreg/desert rose build that is popular right now... and I still get accused of being a perma blocking piece of *** even when I only time my blocks to avoid burst, etc. Instead of ZOS fixing the DK class and giving them more options they continue to pigeon hole them into tanks and then everyone wonders why they're so tanky.

In summary:

- Change the block cost calculation to remove flat value glyphs before % values (like magicka/stamina cost reduction).
- Nerf the effectiveness of sets like 7th legion, fury, etc.

After that, you will see both stam and magicka dk are just one-dimensional watered down classes who are but a shell of their former selves crutching on game mechanics because their own class passives and actives just plain suck.

Completely agree on your summary and the paragraph about block costs. But I like to point a few things out:

"unless they are just absolutely the worst and most unaware players who are not healing, not using unblockable CC's "

I think that is a bit condescending. Even for good players it's hard to crack a permablocker. Only difference is, that they just don't let those tanks bait them into an endless struggle. Also, fear etc. good that every class has an unblockable and useful CC on live right now...

"relies heavily on DoT which is fairly useless in PvP"

I have to disagree. Since you use your build as proof of your arguments, I will do the same. I run a DW DoT build and I have far more fun and success than on a 2h burst build against anyone without a pocket Templar. Massive DoT pressure keeps people on their heels and, you know, not everyone runs or even could afford to run a cleanse. It's far less expensive to keep dots and debuffs up than to cleanse them all.

"the only burst you're going to see and it's predictable as hell"

I can imagine that every mag Sorc would like to have a word with you about predictable burst.

But then again, you are completely right about leaving the real offenders of problematic HA builds untouched. I still have no words about why a blanket nerf to all HA is a good thing when the issues lie elsewhere, when 1k+ dmg stats from sets, permablocking, undodgeable abilities and permasnaring seem to be completely fine to ZOS.

@Chilly-McFreeze

It's not really that condescending or untrue. I'm not saying good players don't have a hard time killing a build that is perma blocking or one who can block a lot, I am saying that most of these "perma blocking" builds aren't actually perma blocking and that if you are getting 1vX'd by a magdk then you are fundamentally screwing up by not healing, not CC'ing them, or.... just walking away at a brisk pace. I'm calling out these players who lack fundamental knowledge and skills who claim magdk can perma tank a whole group while killing them all. A lot of the times I get whispered about being a broken permablock tank who can dish out insane damage it's by people who literally stood there and didn't do anything defensive while I a) walked up to them b) applied dots c) whipped them down while they never tried to heal, move away, etc. There's an insane amount of counter play against both stamdk and magdk. Even if killing them can be hard, ignoring them is easy and not getting killed by them is even easier.

And your comments about a DoT build are fine. I've had success with dot builds too on stamdk but nothing beats pure burst in pvp - especially outnumbered or in any size group as I think DK is really strong 1v1. And for magdk we don't have as easy of access to defile which is a huge part of DoT builds working. The quicker you kill your opponent the less you need to sustain, heal, etc. Also for most classes having access to passive mitigation (major evasion) and high mobility is cheaper and mitigates more potential damage than a DK standing their ground.

I don't run HA anymore. I haven't since morrowind. It's way too much damage loss already from lack of penetration after the sharpened nerf and having to stack more sustain after the CP and constitution nerf.

The fact is DKs aren't scary and I don't find them a threat when I am on my other classes. At most they're a nuisance and I just ignore them.

krathos · October 2017

Like, who knows how many times I've been jumped by some random stam nb, who just stands there spamming surprise attack taking my dots, get him/her down to 25% health, and then instead of moving or healing he/she ambushes me again from melee range and then dies and whispers me "perma block ******". Or the sorc who stands there with his/her wards down, with vampirism, and gets bursted and then cries to me about how magdk needs to be nerfed. These are the types of players crying that magdk are 1vX gods. Red shirt cannon fodder no matter what class you're fighting them with.

Wikter_Bravo · October 2017

If you really want medium Armour to be more competitive in PvP, then we need to reduce the amount of abilities that can't be dodged. Maybe not all, but most, yes there is an argument to have them but the whole point of medium is to mitigate damage from dodging. I play medium Armour on my stam dk, i like it but what gets me the most is undodgeable damage. Im gonna pick on sorc for a bit here (nothing against them) but I was at 15k health and i EXPLODED to 0. Why? because i had curse on me. Now i get that sorc is a bursty class but if i could have dodged that damage, I wouldn't have exploded. Its not only sorcs, wardens have divers, templars have power of the light and dks have CC. All the classes need to be reworked and looked at but in my opinion, less undodgable damage the more viable medium armour is.

krathos · October 2017

DarkVector_PL wrote: »

If you really want medium Armour to be more competitive in PvP, then we need to reduce the amount of abilities that can't be dodged. Maybe not all, but most, yes there is an argument to have them but the whole point of medium is to mitigate damage from dodging. I play medium Armour on my stam dk, i like it but what gets me the most is undodgeable damage. Im gonna pick on sorc for a bit here (nothing against them) but I was at 15k health and i EXPLODED to 0. Why? because i had curse on me. Now i get that sorc is a bursty class but if i could have dodged that damage, I wouldn't have exploded. Its not only sorcs, wardens have divers, templars have power of the light and dks have CC. All the classes need to be reworked and looked at but in my opinion, less undodgable damage the more viable medium armour is.

lol except we're getting the opposite now. Sorcs just got a 41m undodgeable, unblockable, stun (compared to the DK 8m version of the same skill). So except every Xv1 zergling chasing you across the map to be spamming that as well.

Wikter_Bravo · October 2017

krathos wrote: »

DarkVector_PL wrote: »

If you really want medium Armour to be more competitive in PvP, then we need to reduce the amount of abilities that can't be dodged. Maybe not all, but most, yes there is an argument to have them but the whole point of medium is to mitigate damage from dodging. I play medium Armour on my stam dk, i like it but what gets me the most is undodgeable damage. Im gonna pick on sorc for a bit here (nothing against them) but I was at 15k health and i EXPLODED to 0. Why? because i had curse on me. Now i get that sorc is a bursty class but if i could have dodged that damage, I wouldn't have exploded. Its not only sorcs, wardens have divers, templars have power of the light and dks have CC. All the classes need to be reworked and looked at but in my opinion, less undodgable damage the more viable medium armour is.

lol except we're getting the opposite now. Sorcs just got a 41m undodgeable, unblockable, stun (compared to the DK 8m version of the same skill). So except every Xv1 zergling chasing you across the map to be spamming that as well.

Not even surprised, cliff diver is pretty much spammable and you cant dodge it. But hey, at least it doesn't cc.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2017

I wish they would have taken my advice on the way I think Blocking should work. They should have lowered what it resists but simultaneously have kept stamina regeneration while blocking. Between this and DoT's damage could have poked through and it would have made tanking tanky without overpowering it. I also think damage scaling and any kind of resistance shielding should not be sitting on the same stat. I am also of course not a big fan of the continual power creep upward. It is all an illusion because we the players build to the next new maximums which are often ludicrously overpowered. This overpowered state is not tenable and so they have to rewrite the rules of the game or nerf items that have been hard-won. I don't think either solution is good. I point to the old Star Wars Galaxies for the gear system that I think was one of the best I've seen in an MMO.

RoamingRiverElk · October 2017

Morvane wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

lol, ok. Maybe if DKs had some sort of defense other than block then we wouldn't need to rely on it. Sorry we don't have Streak and Shields and Cloak to carry us.

While I agree to an extent, streak/shields/cloak all require thoughtful, moderated usage. When you build into permablocking you can just tape down that right mouse button. I know you still have to ulti, still have to heal, still have to do several things to stay alive, but having played everything in the game, I really think that permablocking is the easiest thing to manage, and does need tuning.

That being said, ZOS is going about fixing what people perceive to be wrong with DKs (because, judging by some of these responses, those people haven't played a DK) in 110% the wrong way. I think part of the problem is how little they seem to actually care about PVP, compared to PVE. I am mostly inferring this under the assumption that they are hesitant to nerf blocking further due to the design of trials that basically require permablocking. Changing that would require changing the content radically - making it possible to drop block by adding in grace periods / other mechanics that add another layer of complexity to the design.

But guess what? Players don't hit as hard as raid bosses. So having the 'tank' aspects of player design tuned around taking 80k hits and surviving is incredibly unhealthy for PVP, and it shows.

Before HA gets nerfed, for the love of god, and as others have said here, get a clue on what the actual issues are, ZOS. You should know, it's your game. If you don't know, please get in touch with people that do. Many players here on the forums and out in the community at large would be more than happy to point you all in the right direction. There are simpler things that can be changed to make this game more fun for everyone. Removing wrath doesn't even register on the list of things that are wrong.

What infuriates me the most is that There is a very simple fix so we pvpers don't screw the pvers over. And that's separating EVERYTHING about pvp/pve. Like Guild wars two did this. If something was Amazing in pvp, but op in Pve. They would change the skill's behavior depending on what activity you're doing.

Worse part is, ZOS HAS ALREADY DONE THIS BEFORE! Look at Ambush. It stuns Pve enemies for two seconds, but for players, it only snares them.

And yet Zos is making nonsensical excuses as to why they don't want something like this, when they already done it before.

So many player are leaving. Zos lost Deltia, Sypher, and among other Popular players over stupid *** like this. Even Fengrush is struggling to find interest in the game. The only reason he's still playing this game now is because of the playerbase. Everyone is finally fed up with this game. And who can blame them when Zos can't keep it togeather?

these streamers, especially crying sad Sypher are no names without TES
who know about Sypher before his NB streams? No one. And after year a lot of just forget him and will find someone new on YouTube. Stop sticking on good old times pls. Its not constructive

Sypher was very well known as a DK first...

WuffyCerulei · October 2017

Asmael wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Well, stamDKs are top in PVE and PVP, so it's probably time they get nerfed.

Says the dude who doesn't have a single stamina char in his signature.

I don't need one to know they're the top DPS in trials and crap.

Subversus · October 2017

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Well, stamDKs are top in PVE and PVP, so it's probably time they get nerfed.

Says the dude who doesn't have a single stamina char in his signature.

I don't need one to know they're the top DPS in trials and crap.

??????????

Stamdk is utter garbage in pvp against any real opponent

Stamdk is the only class I can go against on my stamblade, magblade and magsorc without going like "oh well this will be a *** long and hard fight". They have absolute *** defenses, terrible sustain if pressured and no damage outside their leap which they can't use because they need o spam shield ult in order to survive any real burst pressure, especially now with shuffle gone.

So I'll repeat myself

?????????????????????????

Adenoma · October 2017

@Subversus , this is the same player who pops into warden threads and talks about nerfing bird spam. Don't get me started on folks that rant about dying to bird spam (they deserve to).

StamDK could use a rebalance of green dragons blood to give a burst heal now that rally is gone.

Subversus · October 2017

Adenoma wrote: »

@Subversus , this is the same player who pops into warden threads and talks about nerfing bird spam. Don't get me started on folks that rant about dying to bird spam (they deserve to).

StamDK could use a rebalance of green dragons blood to give a burst heal now that rally is gone.

I actually agree, gdb and maybe a stam whip would help stamdk quite a bit.

I myself would much rather have the old resource sustain from ults back, but I haven't played stamdk since they nerfed that so idk really.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

I do believe stamina dragonknight needs serious quality of life changes, and mostly utility buffs.
The class is good at pve dps now, but lets be real, mobs wont complain about what kills them.

Battle roar and Helping hand changes in morrowind was a very wrong move, not only it killed stamDk sustain, It rewarded tanks for making troll builds, and it also gave magDK the oppportunity to permablock with no issues.
So, you got rid of those scary stamDKs zos, great job, now you created unkillable tank/mag Dks instead.
Whats the solution? Just admit that you did wrong for once in a decade, and revert this change.
You could just adjust the scaling instead of totally gutting it.

Also one thing that bugs me out is how much stuff stamDk lacks.
Right now a stamDk lacks:
1.class spammable.
2.Class gapcloser
3.Any real defence except blocking (which forces you into tanky builds)
4.class passives that reward agressive builds
5.Burst heal (GDB is garbage, pure garbage.)

before anyone says , but you compensate what you lack with heavy armor SnB/2h.
Yes you are right, but it also kills all the build options we have.
And this heavy armor playstyle is getting nerfed more and more while the unkillable tanks still remain, and they will remain as long as you keep punishing Dk for playing risky.

Take a look at stamwarden, It can go tanky like Dk but unlike a Dk, warden can heal his allies, debuff his enemies and has great utility overall, They can also build as medium armor dual wield dps in PvP.

They have options in their build paths.

Same with stamNb, they have class gapclosers,executes,spammables,cloak, very strong passives and overall much higher damage than a Dk, and on top of this cake they can now build like a stamDK with no issues.

Again, they have options.

So whats my point then? Why not play warden or nb if I hate Dk so much?
- I don't. I love stamDk. I just hate what ZOS is doing to my class.

My point is that StamDk lacks any real choice to make builds and they are basically forced into heavy armor-sword and board.
Open up the medium armor path for StamDk, They already lack cloak , give us working stamina wings, maybe a speed buff only for using medium armor. Like ,use your imagination a bit ZOS, DK is horribly outdated, You want us to use medium armor, then reward us a bit for using it.

Wreuntzylla · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Wrath removal
Evasion removal from heavy
Shield ult increasing cost

All these effect multiple classes, but one class is catching the brunt of this more then any other class and that’s stamina dk, are stamina dks out there really that big of an issue ZOS? Cause that’s who you’re hitting this patch.... and I certainly don’t see anything in the patch notes really improving on stamina dks.

The evasion bit is interesting from a PvP perspective.

Solo players wearing heavy and dodge rolling around are truly nerfed. In GvG of 12man or less, Gossamer becomes somewhat worthwhile in the same way as transmutation has been, and in zerging it probably is not worth it as zergs tend to be magicka AoE dominated fights.

You also still have two crafted sets that grant major evasion, Hist Bark and Spectre's. Gossamer tends to blow those away for healer use (stats), but not in every case. In PvE, the waling and gnashing of teeth when anyone wore Gossmaer in trials...

aeowulf · October 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I do believe stamina dragonknight needs serious quality of life changes, and mostly utility buffs.
The class is good at pve dps now, but lets be real, mobs wont complain about what kills them.

Battle roar and Helping hand changes in morrowind was a very wrong move, not only it killed stamDk sustain, It rewarded tanks for making troll builds, and it also gave magDK the oppportunity to permablock with no issues.
So, you got rid of those scary stamDKs zos, great job, now you created unkillable tank/mag Dks instead.
Whats the solution? Just admit that you did wrong for once in a decade, and revert this change.
You could just adjust the scaling instead of totally gutting it.

dk still the best tank in the game - this does not mean you should be best at everything else too. Also the changes to helping hands meant the sustain on my dk tank went UP, not down. It affected you one way, it affect me another way. I would love to see those class based sustain changes reverted, turned my NB tank into a boring as... standard tank without any crowd control or means to mitigate the lack of it

And i won't even start on the lack of ghroup utility. You think the changes hurt DK a lot? Try PVE templar or NB tank...

Honestly i think there are far too many changes going on far too often. Every time one gets implemented it runs the risk of annoying someone, possibly to the point of leaving the game. It will not attract players to the game. I have never played an MMO where the class changes are so drastic so often. Honestly I think ZOS should open up every 'class' skill tree to every character, (like the single player games) but only allow three to be selected at any time. Some big 4 hour quest to change one too so it's not a common thing. Would also allow some absolutely pve or pvp useless trees to be created without ruining a class, like a invis speed running harvester tree - potentially useful on an alt.

ZOS are very brave though, i'll give tem that. They are attempting to balance a game with more class freedom than everything else combined! Respect.

btw, it's not just your class, it's all classes, at least to a degree. Sorcs do seem to have escaped a lot of changes though. Their balance time will come, when cyrodiil is 100% sorc probably!

Mayrael · October 2017

Ok. 1. Dks dont need shuffle to perma block, but they need manuverability because even them when focused by few decent dpses wont hold the presure so they use LoS to heal up, without shuffle, they need to sacrifice Rally to stay mobile. Its a good change.

But what shuold be done isntead of heavy armor nerfs? Simple thing. Cut the dmg done and healing recieved by a half when blocking. This solves the issue of not only stam dks, but also magplars and wardens jblock casting heals.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I do believe stamina dragonknight needs serious quality of life changes, and mostly utility buffs.
The class is good at pve dps now, but lets be real, mobs wont complain about what kills them.

Battle roar and Helping hand changes in morrowind was a very wrong move, not only it killed stamDk sustain, It rewarded tanks for making troll builds, and it also gave magDK the oppportunity to permablock with no issues.
So, you got rid of those scary stamDKs zos, great job, now you created unkillable tank/mag Dks instead.
Whats the solution? Just admit that you did wrong for once in a decade, and revert this change.
You could just adjust the scaling instead of totally gutting it.

dk still the best tank in the game - this does not mean you should be best at everything else too. Also the changes to helping hands meant the sustain on my dk tank went UP, not down. It affected you one way, it affect me another way. I would love to see those class based sustain changes reverted, turned my NB tank into a boring as... standard tank without any crowd control or means to mitigate the lack of it And i won't even start on the lack of ghroup utility. You think the changes hurt DK a lot? Try PVE templar or NB tank...

Honestly i think there are far too many changes going on far too often. Every time one gets implemented it runs the risk of annoying someone, possibly to the point of leaving the game. It will not attract players to the game. I have never played an MMO where the class changes are so drastic so often. Honestly I think ZOS should open up every 'class' skill tree to every character, (like the single player games) but only allow three to be selected at any time. Some big 4 hour quest to change one too so it's not a common thing. Would also allow some absolutely pve or pvp useless trees to be created without ruining a class, like a invis speed running harvester tree - potentially useful on an alt.

ZOS are very brave though, i'll give tem that. They are attempting to balance a game with more class freedom than everything else combined! Respect.

btw, it's not just your class, it's all classes, at least to a degree. Sorcs do seem to have escaped a lot of changes though. Their balance time will come, when cyrodiil is 100% sorc probably!

You missed my point completely.
Dk tank was already in a great spot, now even better.
Why should you be rewarded with more stamina sustain for not building a stamina pool?
I don't see how buffing Dk further in PvE tanking helps diversity in any way. Or how does it solve the permablockers in PvP.
So yeah, my question still remains, how is the battle roar/helping hands change helping anyone at all?

PS: I'm also happy about heavy armor nightblade having a fitting and unique indirect buff with the shuffle change.
It just makes me sad to think once DK also had access to the same buff. And as you can guess Im mainly a PvP player, I honestly don't give any craps about how PvE goes(that does not mean Im a trash pve player, I got my vMA 2h after a very painful learning curve)
But I can tell you that next patch heavy armor nightblades will be somewhat similar to the old stamDk and Im actually considering to give it a try.