Stamina in not as good as magic in PvP

Vireys · October 2017

SugaComa wrote: »

Sorry op but you're an fool ...

Nope you are mistaken, youre the fool.

Imthe cool cat! Actually some call me freezer RATATATA!

Then to reply on youre story.

This one time i went to store but there was this dude who said the fish is better than cheese then i used spam heals but after i block all my heals are missing then i go to town and got some grapes and went to watch simpson. later fool! Made you read,lol

alephthiago · October 2017

So you think sprinting 22m is better than gapclosing to close distance?
Gap closers are:
Faster
Cheaper
Do damage (a bit too much if you ask me)
Take you to the enemy's position

Sprinting is:
Slower
Expensive
Dont do damage
Have no assurance of getting to the enemy

Its not an advanced math problem, its just logic to gap close.

Vireys · October 2017

alephthiago wrote: »

So you think sprinting 22m is better than gapclosing to close distance?
Gap closers are:
Faster
Cheaper
Do damage (a bit too much if you ask me)
Take you to the enemy's position

Sprinting is:
Slower
Expensive
Dont do damage
Have no assurance of getting to the enemy

Its not an advanced math problem, its just logic to gap close.

The sad fact remains, that the target for the said capcloser wont prolly wait for me to use cap closer, instead he will sprint away from me, so in order to be close enough (22m) i need to sprint to be able to use cap closer, in the first place. If he knows anything hes doing im prolly snared too.

You didnt factor in this now did you?

For you to get to him you need to press dat sprint untill youre 22m away from him to be able to use capper now dont you?

SanTii.92 · October 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

but as a whole magika is stronger than stam this patch.

Debatable, there is no clear cut winner currently.

Mazbt · October 2017

Both are pretty similar in pvp. Depends on what you are doing. Neither is going to excel in absolutely everything.

agingerinohio · October 2017

I've been experimenting with both magica and stamina in PvP. I find stamina more survivable if you don't chase the bunny hopping/streaking away foo's. Draw them back to you. It's a playstyle thing for sure. I'm still learning the ropes though..

Lexxypwns · October 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

but as a whole magika is stronger than stam this patch.

Debatable, there is no clear cut winner currently.

Look at it like this. If you've got equally good players playing each, what specs would you be most excited to group with?

For me it's all magika except stamden

Dredlord · October 2017

Hollery wrote: »

Your title is correct... But flawed reasoning. Magicka can outheal a lot of damage done. And there are so many skills that can't be bodge it put stam in a bad place. With the death of viper (Stam's crutch) it's hard to effectively be a stamina user outside of hit and run tactics

Luckily hit and run tactics have proven the most effective so..... /Thread?

Dredlord · October 2017

Vireys wrote: »

MagDK don't have speed or gap closer so stop complaining. This thread is nonsense.

Sure they do, I use mine all the time and it's more reliable than the templar charge AND it gives major expedition.

Let me end by saying I dont agree with the op though.

Joy_Division · October 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

but as a whole magika is stronger than stam this patch.

Debatable, there is no clear cut winner currently.

Look at it like this. If you've got equally good players playing each, what specs would you be most excited to group with?

For me it's all magika except stamden

Depends. I think the smaller the group, the better stam becomes.

Izaki · October 2017

This is what gap closers are made for afaik..

kyle.wilson · October 2017

From the title i was thinking thos was going to be a thread necroed from late 14 early 15.

Lexxypwns · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

but as a whole magika is stronger than stam this patch.

Debatable, there is no clear cut winner currently.

Look at it like this. If you've got equally good players playing each, what specs would you be most excited to group with?

For me it's all magika except stamden

Depends. I think the smaller the group, the better stam becomes.

I totally agree, about stam becoming better in smaller groups, but I think that's because of how poorly stam plays in big groups. However, I think the only stam spec that will provide the same impact as a non-DK magika spec is stam warden. I truly believe that you will feel the improvement to your group comp much more sharply by adding a magplar, magden, mageblade, or magsorc than you will adding any of the stam specs outside of warden. It's because magika builds can offer so much more to allies than stam builds without compromising their build. This goes back to the itemization issues I brought up earlier in the thread.

What can a stamina build wear that's going to bring the group utility of trans or riposte without compromising something else in their build? Most magika based solo builds, of the non-DK variety, are taking advantage of these excellent sets anyway so you can fluidly transition into a small group and provide incredible synergy.

A typical solo stam setup is 5 Fury/7th/Ravager + sustain set + Selene/BS/X. None of these sets will allow two players to achieve the same synergy as the meta solo magika set ups. This means you need to start changing in different sets and adjusting your build.

Imo, magika is too versatile and has too much utility for stam to be on the same level. The biggest things that seperated stam for ages, a large gap in single target controlled burst damage combined with superior mobility have either been nerfed or are getting nerfed. Now stam burst has been toned down, removing the need for magika builds to rock heavy to stay alive. Now that magika builds can access the superior light armor passives they've started to perform slightly better than stam.

Also, there's the disparity in defensive ultimates. Most stam builds are running SnB as their defensive ultimates for when they need to turtle. At least 2 of the mag specs are tied to a resto staff which means when they turtle they also help their group do the same. Cycling resto ultimates is one of the best ways to survive heavy pressure from a larger group if you get caught and can't out maneuver them

I don't feel like there's a huge gap, but I think magika builds have the better tools right now

Thogard · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

but as a whole magika is stronger than stam this patch.

Debatable, there is no clear cut winner currently.

Look at it like this. If you've got equally good players playing each, what specs would you be most excited to group with?

For me it's all magika except stamden

Depends. I think the smaller the group, the better stam becomes.

Agreed. In small group vs small group fights, Stam groups with a magplar healer in heavy tend to win. This is because Stam has better synergies with the defenses against being focused ... Mag drops really fast with 3+ people attacking and usually they are able to be burst killed through spam heals or spam ward, by nature of their low defense outside of dmg shield.

Stam classes can usually survive 3-6 people attacking if they are getting healed

TheDoomsdayMonster · October 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that magicka will be meta once Shuffle is taken away from heavy armor. Medium armor is weaker than light and heavy magicka and heavy armor stam gets a huge nerf with CwC. Last time which I visited the duel spot I only saw magicka builds running around - mag dks and magblades in specific... making magicka stronger at this point is ridiculous. Not starting to talk about the utility and AoE magicka brings with, nobody can disagree that magicka is far superior in group play compared to stamina, just look at busted magicka toys like riposte, transmu, eye of wrobel, spammable and strong aoe heals, restoult... Well... one stamina maneuver bot is probably useful in a group...

Eye of Wrobel...LoL!!!

Comedy Gold...

Adenoma · October 2017

I hate how magicka gets so many cool sets. Whenever I want to set up my gear for duo play I feel selfish if I'm on my stamwarden - sure, I can get a lot of burst and I provide some minor buffs as well as going into tree spam, but that means I'm not dropping fat dawnbreakers.

Since one of my buddies is getting back into ESO and I have another duo partner who is pretty flexible gear-wise I can't help but plan to play a magicka class due to itemization. Just based on our gear setups we get increased critical resists, minor maim, major defile (well, not a light armor set), and minor vulnerability on everyone. You don't get a chance to run that with stamina builds (besides the major defile).

Vireys · October 2017

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

Adenoma · October 2017

Wait, in that scenario why don't you just use a gap closer if you're stamina? It's pretty unlikely you were the cause of them being at low life if they're more than 22m away and you need to catch up. The only scenario I can think of is a niche one involving a NB or sorc.

So 60% of the time this isn't an issue in the most far flung of scenarios where they have used shades or streaked to get out of your 22m radius. Otherwise it sounds like you're saying stamina is disadvantaged when at extreme range and attempting to poach kills from others - I don't think that's too important of an issue anyways.

GrigorijMalahevich · October 2017

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

Haha, funny troll. Under what bridge do you live?

Lord-Otto · October 2017

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

If you're melee and let a target outside of your range at some point in the battle, you made a significant mistake and should be punished.

Just roll a mag DK and talk about mobility again, you'll see.

Azurya · October 2017

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Horse crap. That's just crazy, stop chasing the Sorc.

imho, it is not about chasing the sorc, it is about the costs of abilities in PVP-areas. My magicka builds are non-sorc, but still rely on their magicka -pools. and yeah that bit of stam they have, is enough to cover their needs in that area, but I can see the point that it is not very fair against players relying on their stam-pool for all and everything that they also must cover with that amount also their costs of rolldodging, blocking, sprinting and whatever.

Houston, we have a problem!

Vireys · October 2017

Challenge question 2

How to capture the flag without sprinting?

Being fast and to be able to sprint is imperative to this game mode.

Vireys · October 2017

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

If you're melee and let a target outside of your range at some point in the battle, you made a significant mistake and should be punished.

Just roll a mag DK and talk about mobility again, you'll see.

Im not asking should i be punished or did i make a mistake.

Please just answer the scenario with not using sprinting

(since this thread has told me newer use sprint on stam char page 1).

Vireys · October 2017

Adenoma wrote: »

Wait, in that scenario why don't you just use a gap closer if you're stamina? It's pretty unlikely you were the cause of them being at low life if they're more than 22m away and you need to catch up. The only scenario I can think of is a niche one involving a NB or sorc.

So 60% of the time this isn't an issue in the most far flung of scenarios where they have used shades or streaked to get out of your 22m radius. Otherwise it sounds like you're saying stamina is disadvantaged when at extreme range and attempting to poach kills from others - I don't think that's too important of an issue anyways.

Dont dance around, answer the question.

How to catch that runner without using sprint.

To humor you i answer this:

Wait, in that scenario why don't you just use a gap closer if you're stamina?

1. I got feared for 2 sec and it made me run the other way, the distance is now over 22m.
2. Or i dodge rolled opposite way and he dodge rolled other way 2x times distance is now over 22m
3. I got Knockbacked and he dodge rolled away from me to gain distance
4. etc...

Its not like its impossible in PvP to get outside of 22m with youre opponent without me even making a mistake...

Vireys · October 2017

Azurya wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Horse crap. That's just crazy, stop chasing the Sorc.

imho, it is not about chasing the sorc, it is about the costs of abilities in PVP-areas. My magicka builds are non-sorc, but still rely on their magicka -pools. and yeah that bit of stam they have, is enough to cover their needs in that area, but I can see the point that it is not very fair against players relying on their stam-pool for all and everything that they also must cover with that amount also their costs of rolldodging, blocking, sprinting and whatever.

Houston, we have a problem!

Yeh this is what im on about basically.

Adenoma · October 2017

You move towards them. If you are running smart setups you have major expedition and should close the distance required for 22m gap closers quickly.

Fear will not cause you to create a 22m gap. Three dodge rolls cannot generate a 22m gap. Knockback and a dodge roll could conceivably give a gap greater than 22m, but return to the concept of moving towards your target with a speed buff.

Vireys · October 2017

Valera Progib wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

Haha, funny troll. Under what bridge do you live?

Can you answer the question or can you explain what you hope to achieve with *** posts like this?

Are you capable of a normal dialog?

Lord-Otto · October 2017

Vireys wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

If you're melee and let a target outside of your range at some point in the battle, you made a significant mistake and should be punished.

Just roll a mag DK and talk about mobility again, you'll see.

Im not asking should i be punished or did i make a mistake.

Please just answer the scenario with not using sprinting

(since this thread has told me newer use sprint on stam char page 1).

Easy.

Don't let them get away in the first place. 22 meter gapcloser is well enough to keep close to them. You are, after all, melee. You expect ranged characters to voluntarily fight on your terms?

Also, snare them. If they don't get rid of it, it nullifies sprint advantage. Use a Major Expedition buff and you're golden. Mist Form is also available, but it's overkill and therefore rarely seen on stam toons.

And finally, if you really must know, magicka builds can sprint even less than you. You would catch them, eventually. Only Sorcs have a chance, if their sustain is super high, in which case you probably didn't pressure them enough in the fight.

And that is why you're being punished. Mistakes must be punished, and you just described that.

Lord-Otto · October 2017

Vireys wrote: »

Challenge question 2

How to capture the flag without sprinting?

Being fast and to be able to sprint is imperative to this game mode.

Kill your opponents.
Next?

Vireys · October 2017

Adenoma wrote: »

You move towards them. If you are running smart setups you have major expedition and should close the distance required for 22m gap closers quickly.

Fear will not cause you to create a 22m gap. Three dodge rolls cannot generate a 22m gap. Knockback and a dodge roll could conceivably give a gap greater than 22m, but return to the concept of moving towards your target with a speed buff.

I accept this answer , this would work but for me to get that low HP magic user target chased down i would have to:

1.Use not optimal armorset so i can get runspeed. (Majority wont run with these anyways, why should i?)
2. waste my potion slot to not optimal potion (runspeed+hot) (I have heals, dont need extra hot as mcuh as i need extra +power+critt)
3. Not to get feared/KB/or CC'ed.
4. Use one of my 5 ability slots for cap closer. (I could use it on extra CC or extra utility/dmg anything else really)

Now if i do all of the above dont you guys see its putting me on a handicapped position ?

If i was NOT a stam base class i dont have to use anything on that list ! NOTHING!

And still peoples dont see this as a handicap wich puts stam users in PvP in a weaker position? I think some of you sees my point but are too proud to change anything or even milden theyre statements.

It would be reasonable to milden this statement for example:

"Stamina builds should not ever use sprint!" (page 1) we all know now this is not the case.