Stamina in not as good as magic in PvP

Vireys

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Challenge question 2

How to capture the flag without sprinting?

Being fast and to be able to sprint is imperative to this game mode.

Kill your opponents.
Next?

What if they runaway and wont let me just kill them?

Some enemies i met have the audacity to CC me and even try to kill me in exchange, how rude!

Valencer

Stamina is really weak in terms of group play (Stamina warden does offer some slight utility because of class ultimates and a spammable AoE burst heal) but in a 1 on 1 fight most of the stamina classes can put a good fight afaik.

Stamblades, stamplars and stamina wardens can all be pretty dangerous to fight. Only class I feel like I can usually ignore nowadays is stam DKs, since more often than not their damage is just too low and they dont offer anything to group play if they get ignored. Stamina sorcs are a bit of a mixed bag..

Stamina warden is the only one I'd say is really overperforming at the moment because of tree ulti spam, abilities that ignore defensive mechanics, and an absorb that makes them untouchable to projectile-based builds like mag sorcs and magblades. It's nice feeling useful in groups as a stamina build though

Vireys

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

If you're melee and let a target outside of your range at some point in the battle, you made a significant mistake and should be punished.

Just roll a mag DK and talk about mobility again, you'll see.

Im not asking should i be punished or did i make a mistake.

Please just answer the scenario with not using sprinting

(since this thread has told me newer use sprint on stam char page 1).

Easy.

Don't let them get away in the first place. 22 meter gapcloser is well enough to keep close to them. You are, after all, melee. You expect ranged characters to voluntarily fight on your terms?

Also, snare them. If they don't get rid of it, it nullifies sprint advantage. Use a Major Expedition buff and you're golden. Mist Form is also available, but it's overkill and therefore rarely seen on stam toons.

And finally, if you really must know, magicka builds can sprint even less than you. You would catch them, eventually. Only Sorcs have a chance, if their sustain is super high, in which case you probably didn't pressure them enough in the fight.

And that is why you're being punished. Mistakes must be punished, and you just described that.

In the scenario what i asked you to answer you the opponent is on low HP and pressing sprint to run away 23 m away from you.

So youre answers dont work:

1. "Dont let them get away" they are allready gotten away you didnt understand even the question
2. "snare them" target not in range of snare
3. "tou would catch them eventually" yes but my whole point is that when i catch them my most valuable resource is really low (stamina) and teirs is at 100% (magica) so they have the upper hand.


Not answering the question. 0 points. It seems it wasnt as "easy" as you thought it would be

Izaki

Vireys wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

You move towards them. If you are running smart setups you have major expedition and should close the distance required for 22m gap closers quickly.

Fear will not cause you to create a 22m gap. Three dodge rolls cannot generate a 22m gap. Knockback and a dodge roll could conceivably give a gap greater than 22m, but return to the concept of moving towards your target with a speed buff.

I accept this answer , this would work but for me to get that low HP magic user target chased down i would have to:

1.Use not optimal armorset so i can get runspeed. (Majority wont run with these anyways, why should i?)
2. waste my potion slot to not optimal potion (runspeed+hot) (I have heals, dont need extra hot as mcuh as i need extra +power+critt)
3. Not to get feared/KB/or CC'ed.
4. Use one of my 5 ability slots for cap closer. (I could use it on extra CC or extra utility/dmg anything else really)

Now if i do all of the above dont you guys see its putting me on a handicapped position ?

If i was NOT a stam base class i dont have to use anything on that list ! NOTHING!

And still peoples dont see this as a handicap wich puts stam users in PvP in a weaker position? I think some of you sees my point but are too proud to change anything or even milden theyre statements.

It would be reasonable to milden this statement for example:

"Stamina builds should not ever use sprint!" (page 1) we all know now this is not the case.

For the speed buff, just use a bow on your back bar (which is arguably the best back bar weapon for every class except Stam DK anyway) and roll dodge when you need the speed buff... Hasty Retreat passive.

And really, CC breaking fast is something you're going to have to learn how to do, because chasing people is one thing, being CC'd while being chased by 5 angry dudes is something else entirely.

Gap closers do a ton of damage and you have plenty of ways to combo a burst with them. Crit Rush is a guaranteed Crit for example and there are plenty of ways that you can take advantage of that and on top of that, the other morph gives a 60% snare which is just ridiculous (no magicka build will be able to get away with that debuff on them). Ambush Empowers your next attack. Gap closers things are must haves on your bar and if you don't have them...

As far as using sprint goes, you do indeed use sprint, but not to mindlessly chase a target.

Vireys

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Why are you asking questions on your thread yet you title as if you know what you state is a fact?

I felt the need to do so, and please dont create strawmen.

I dont know this for a fact , but i strongly believe so at this time.

Vireys

Izaki wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

You move towards them. If you are running smart setups you have major expedition and should close the distance required for 22m gap closers quickly.

Fear will not cause you to create a 22m gap. Three dodge rolls cannot generate a 22m gap. Knockback and a dodge roll could conceivably give a gap greater than 22m, but return to the concept of moving towards your target with a speed buff.

I accept this answer , this would work but for me to get that low HP magic user target chased down i would have to:

1.Use not optimal armorset so i can get runspeed. (Majority wont run with these anyways, why should i?)
2. waste my potion slot to not optimal potion (runspeed+hot) (I have heals, dont need extra hot as mcuh as i need extra +power+critt)
3. Not to get feared/KB/or CC'ed.
4. Use one of my 5 ability slots for cap closer. (I could use it on extra CC or extra utility/dmg anything else really)

Now if i do all of the above dont you guys see its putting me on a handicapped position ?

If i was NOT a stam base class i dont have to use anything on that list ! NOTHING!

And still peoples dont see this as a handicap wich puts stam users in PvP in a weaker position? I think some of you sees my point but are too proud to change anything or even milden theyre statements.

It would be reasonable to milden this statement for example:

"Stamina builds should not ever use sprint!" (page 1) we all know now this is not the case.

For the speed buff, just use a bow on your back bar (which is arguably the best back bar weapon for every class except Stam DK anyway) and roll dodge when you need the speed buff... Hasty Retreat passive.

And really, CC breaking fast is something you're going to have to learn how to do, because chasing people is one thing, being CC'd while being chased by 5 angry dudes is something else entirely.

Gap closers do a ton of damage and you have plenty of ways to combo a burst with them. Crit Rush is a guaranteed Crit for example and there are plenty of ways that you can take advantage of that and on top of that, the other morph gives a 60% snare which is just ridiculous (no magicka build will be able to get away with that debuff on them). Ambush Empowers your next attack. Gap closers things are must haves on your bar and if you don't have them...

As far as using sprint goes, you do indeed use sprint, but not to mindlessly chase a target.

These are all valid resonings for me on " how to chase down a lof HP mag player " yes, and thanks for the write up.

But what im blabbering about in this thread is the fact that after all this is said and done and i finally catch the mag player he is in better state in regards he has 100% of his most valuable resource (magica) and i have much lower pool of my most valuable resource (stamina). So when the fight resumes he can use his pool for longer than i can use mine (assuming similiar regens)!

Do you agree on this or do you disagree, and why?

Zbigb4life

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Horse crap. That's just crazy, stop chasing the Sorc.

Yeah, nerf them instead. Oh sorry that was just to easy to let it pass

Vireys

Thanks for all answers i think i have now a better understanding on this issue than i had before , and i certainly have more knowledge on how to chase down runners and what to NOT do, so this was fruitful in a sense.

Still i have the original opinion that stam users are on the weaker side on PvP because sprinting is important in PvP and it costs us oure most valuable resource, but it wont cost most valuable resource to mag users.

Also i feel we need to make too much compromises to even the playfield :

1.sacrifice one action slot (i admit cap closer is not useless, but i dont like to be forced to use it if mag players dont have to)
2.sacrifice potion to speedpot (its not useless but again i dont like its forced on us if its not forced on mag users)
3. Using weak DPS bow as secondary (mag users dont have to use weak backbar because of sprint issues)

Thank you for the conversation!

Izaki

Vireys wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

You move towards them. If you are running smart setups you have major expedition and should close the distance required for 22m gap closers quickly.

Fear will not cause you to create a 22m gap. Three dodge rolls cannot generate a 22m gap. Knockback and a dodge roll could conceivably give a gap greater than 22m, but return to the concept of moving towards your target with a speed buff.

I accept this answer , this would work but for me to get that low HP magic user target chased down i would have to:

1.Use not optimal armorset so i can get runspeed. (Majority wont run with these anyways, why should i?)
2. waste my potion slot to not optimal potion (runspeed+hot) (I have heals, dont need extra hot as mcuh as i need extra +power+critt)
3. Not to get feared/KB/or CC'ed.
4. Use one of my 5 ability slots for cap closer. (I could use it on extra CC or extra utility/dmg anything else really)

Now if i do all of the above dont you guys see its putting me on a handicapped position ?

If i was NOT a stam base class i dont have to use anything on that list ! NOTHING!

And still peoples dont see this as a handicap wich puts stam users in PvP in a weaker position? I think some of you sees my point but are too proud to change anything or even milden theyre statements.

It would be reasonable to milden this statement for example:

"Stamina builds should not ever use sprint!" (page 1) we all know now this is not the case.

For the speed buff, just use a bow on your back bar (which is arguably the best back bar weapon for every class except Stam DK anyway) and roll dodge when you need the speed buff... Hasty Retreat passive.

And really, CC breaking fast is something you're going to have to learn how to do, because chasing people is one thing, being CC'd while being chased by 5 angry dudes is something else entirely.

Gap closers do a ton of damage and you have plenty of ways to combo a burst with them. Crit Rush is a guaranteed Crit for example and there are plenty of ways that you can take advantage of that and on top of that, the other morph gives a 60% snare which is just ridiculous (no magicka build will be able to get away with that debuff on them). Ambush Empowers your next attack. Gap closers things are must haves on your bar and if you don't have them...

As far as using sprint goes, you do indeed use sprint, but not to mindlessly chase a target.

These are all valid resonings for me on " how to chase down a lof HP mag player " yes, and thanks for the write up.

But what im blabbering about in this thread is the fact that after all this is said and done and i finally catch the mag player he is in better state in regards he has 100% of his most valuable resource (magica) and i have much lower pool of my most valuable resource (stamina). So when the fight resumes he can use his pool for longer than i can use mine (assuming similiar regens)!

Do you agree on this or do you disagree, and why?

While magicka on magicka builds is important, you can surivive while being out of magicka completely, however, if you're out of stamina, then you're dead. See stamina on magicka builds, is just as valuable as on stamina ones. However, for obvious reasons, magicka builds have less stamina, which means they must be much more careful with it, they have to always have enough to break free from the next CC (or they are toast), so spriting, blocking, dodging, bashing is usually only for very special occasions.

Plus, another thing: when you chase someone, you don't waste ressources, I mean, you shouldn't let someone get away in the first place (snares). In the scenario you've mentioned however, if the player was recovering and trying to escape, I highly doubt that he had full ressources (otherwise, why would he run?) so when you do catch up with him/her, there's a much higher chance for you to have higher of both ressources pools. Offense is always cheaper than Defense. Chasing someone with sprint alone is never a good thing, because most classes have ways to escape melee situations, which is why you need gap closers and snares. But yeah, to answer your question, its no big deal him/her having more resources than you, it only gives a mild advantage anyway, but like I said before, in the situation you described, its highly doubtful that the opponent has a full magicka and stamina bar.

Izaki

Vireys wrote: »

Thanks for all answers i think i have now a better understanding on this issue than i had before , and i certainly have more knowledge on how to chase down runners and what to NOT do, so this was fruitful in a sense.

Still i have the original opinion that stam users are on the weaker side on PvP because sprinting is important in PvP and it costs us oure most valuable resource, but it wont cost most valuable resource to mag users.

Also i feel we need to make too much compromises to even the playfield :

1.sacrifice one action slot (i admit cap closer is not useless, but i dont like to be forced to use it if mag players dont have to)
2.sacrifice potion to speedpot (its not useless but again i dont like its forced on us if its not forced on mag users)
3. Using weak DPS bow as secondary (mag users dont have to use weak backbar because of sprint issues)

Thank you for the conversation!

1. Magicka is a fundamentally different playstyle from Stamina, they aren't even comparable. So the whole "they don't use gap closers, why should I?" thing really isn't the right way to go about it.
2. Don't use speed pots unless you don't have a Bow. Even then, you aren't absolutely obliged to have a speed buff. It depends on your build and playstyle.
3. Bow is the best secondary weapon offering a melee build the strongest single target DoT in the game that can be applied from range: Poison Injection (an absolute must have). The amount of extra pressure this thing does is insane. Also: the Bow offers a lot of burst options: fully charged heavy attack > bar swap > gap closer > ultimate > execute for example. So don't say that Bow is weak, because its basically the best back bar option in PvE and in PvP alike. And it also offers some great passives. I really don't see why you would want anything else on your back bar. Unless of course you can make effective use of Sword and Board.

FearlessOne_2014

So this is another "Nerf Sorc" thread in disguise. Well done OP. Very nice and passive aggressive way to go about it.

You forgot one thing OP. You forgot to add the punchline. Your punchline should have been something witty. To passively announce your feelings for sorcs Bolt Escape, to be nerfed even more.

TheDoomsdayMonster

IMHO, both are very good and both are situational enough to where you cant declare either as better than the other...

Which is best is totally controlled by the situation and the skill/gear of the players involved...

Adenoma

@Izaki , lingering health + speed pots are the most overperforming potion right now. On my stamina warden it's basically equivalent to 2k health regen and full uptime of major expedition. I can't think of a potion that provides as much. If you're depending on potions to sew up your sustain then you likely don't have enough sustain.

Izaki

Adenoma wrote: »

@Izaki , lingering health + speed pots are the most overperforming potion right now. On my stamina warden it's basically equivalent to 2k health regen and full uptime of major expedition. I can't think of a potion that provides as much. If you're depending on potions to sew up your sustain then you likely don't have enough sustain.

I use tons of different potions in different situations on my stamblade and my magsorc. I'll check those pots out though lol

And I wouldn't take that statement as absolute truth. If you don't have enough sustain, then 20% extra recovery might transform that into more than enough sustain. It depends on how you build and what you do. The "burst" ressource restore is just a extra.

Joy_Division

Vireys wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

You move towards them. If you are running smart setups you have major expedition and should close the distance required for 22m gap closers quickly.

Fear will not cause you to create a 22m gap. Three dodge rolls cannot generate a 22m gap. Knockback and a dodge roll could conceivably give a gap greater than 22m, but return to the concept of moving towards your target with a speed buff.

I accept this answer , this would work but for me to get that low HP magic user target chased down i would have to:

1.Use not optimal armorset so i can get runspeed. (Majority wont run with these anyways, why should i?)
2. waste my potion slot to not optimal potion (runspeed+hot) (I have heals, dont need extra hot as mcuh as i need extra +power+critt)
3. Not to get feared/KB/or CC'ed.
4. Use one of my 5 ability slots for cap closer. (I could use it on extra CC or extra utility/dmg anything else really)

Now if i do all of the above dont you guys see its putting me on a handicapped position ?

If i was NOT a stam base class i dont have to use anything on that list ! NOTHING!

And still peoples dont see this as a handicap wich puts stam users in PvP in a weaker position? I think some of you sees my point but are too proud to change anything or even milden theyre statements.

It would be reasonable to milden this statement for example:

"Stamina builds should not ever use sprint!" (page 1) we all know now this is not the case.

For the speed buff, just use a bow on your back bar (which is arguably the best back bar weapon for every class except Stam DK anyway) and roll dodge when you need the speed buff... Hasty Retreat passive.

And really, CC breaking fast is something you're going to have to learn how to do, because chasing people is one thing, being CC'd while being chased by 5 angry dudes is something else entirely.

Gap closers do a ton of damage and you have plenty of ways to combo a burst with them. Crit Rush is a guaranteed Crit for example and there are plenty of ways that you can take advantage of that and on top of that, the other morph gives a 60% snare which is just ridiculous (no magicka build will be able to get away with that debuff on them). Ambush Empowers your next attack. Gap closers things are must haves on your bar and if you don't have them...

As far as using sprint goes, you do indeed use sprint, but not to mindlessly chase a target.

These are all valid resonings for me on " how to chase down a lof HP mag player " yes, and thanks for the write up.

But what im blabbering about in this thread is the fact that after all this is said and done and i finally catch the mag player he is in better state in regards he has 100% of his most valuable resource (magica) and i have much lower pool of my most valuable resource (stamina). So when the fight resumes he can use his pool for longer than i can use mine (assuming similiar regens)!

Do you agree on this or do you disagree, and why?

Disagree.

From what you type, it's clear you are either inexperienced at PvP or just trolling. Most magicka players have terrible mobility. Yes, you consume stamina by sprinting, but so do they and they have a lot less of it. If they try to run away you will catch them and, yes, you will have less stamina, but they will have NO stamina and a magicka player with no stamina should be an easy kill.

That is basic Cyrodiil PvP 101 and the fact that you are arguing against this means you are just arguing for arguments sake or do not understand PvP very well,

Stamina players have more and better options for mobility that magicka players. Medium armor has speed passives. Slotting bow gives major expedition passive on dodge roll. Dodge roll itself is fast. Two-Handed gives access to good gap-closer. Shuffle skill removes snares. Immovable-speed-stamina potion gives 45 potential permanent major expedition + replenishes your major attribute. And magicka classes can't blow their stam on the Rapid Maneuvers skill. Again, this is basic stuff.

You keep saying that magicka is a magicka players most valuable resource, but it's not. A magicka player who has no stamaina is an easy kill for any stam player who knows what they are doing. A magicka player with no magicka can still survive via blocking, kiting, etc.

Stamina has pretty much always been better at magicka at mobility and killing enemies quickly. Magicka is probably better at everything else at the moment, but those two aspects are incredibly important and why a lot of solo players go for a stam spec: they can get their kills and get out of trouble fast, which is pretty much what solo players are forced to do unless they want to play horse riding simulator. If you aren't playing to these strengths, and from what you are typing it's quite clear you are not, then, yes, stamina is going to seem and be terrible.

Lexxypwns

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

This is a nice strawman you've constructed.

The problem is stamina is better suited to use sprint than magika so the entirety of your argument is tainted by your flawed premise

Lord-Otto

Vireys wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

If you're melee and let a target outside of your range at some point in the battle, you made a significant mistake and should be punished.

Just roll a mag DK and talk about mobility again, you'll see.

Im not asking should i be punished or did i make a mistake.

Please just answer the scenario with not using sprinting

(since this thread has told me newer use sprint on stam char page 1).

Easy.

Don't let them get away in the first place. 22 meter gapcloser is well enough to keep close to them. You are, after all, melee. You expect ranged characters to voluntarily fight on your terms?

Also, snare them. If they don't get rid of it, it nullifies sprint advantage. Use a Major Expedition buff and you're golden. Mist Form is also available, but it's overkill and therefore rarely seen on stam toons.

And finally, if you really must know, magicka builds can sprint even less than you. You would catch them, eventually. Only Sorcs have a chance, if their sustain is super high, in which case you probably didn't pressure them enough in the fight.

And that is why you're being punished. Mistakes must be punished, and you just described that.

In the scenario what i asked you to answer you the opponent is on low HP and pressing sprint to run away 23 m away from you.

So youre answers dont work:

1. "Dont let them get away" they are allready gotten away you didnt understand even the question
2. "snare them" target not in range of snare
3. "tou would catch them eventually" yes but my whole point is that when i catch them my most valuable resource is really low (stamina) and teirs is at 100% (magica) so they have the upper hand.


Not answering the question. 0 points. It seems it wasnt as "easy" as you thought it would be

1. Told you, if you're in combat, stay on them. You cannot escape from gapclosers that way. And if you didn't execute them or put Poison Injection on them, that is on you. This is simply mistakes being made by you and you don't want to pay the price.

2. You constantly apply snares. Probably the reason they could create distance in the first place - you're not fighting for spacing correctly.

3. You have already been told, multiple times, that STAMINA is the most valuable resource for BOTH. All magicka in the world is useless when you're out of stamina, it recovers too slowly, and you get stunned to death.


Man, honest advice:
Listen to the veterans here trying to help you. You're new, if you won't accept advice from the people who have experience, you will have a long and rocky road ahead of you.

Lord-Otto

Vireys wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Challenge question 2

How to capture the flag without sprinting?

Being fast and to be able to sprint is imperative to this game mode.

Kill your opponents.
Next?

What if they runaway and wont let me just kill them?

Some enemies i met have the audacity to CC me and even try to kill me in exchange, how rude!

If they run away, your team takes the flag.
If they kill you, they are better and you should lose.

Juhasow

I understand we have freedom of speech etc...but seriously some of this threads or posts maded by people who completly dont know what they're talking about because they falled under 1st impression of something...

There should be some separate Forum category or atleast LOL button.

Drummerx04

Stamina builds have a noticeable disadvantage in two basic situations.

1. Fighting at range with no option to gap close
2. Fighting in siege

And wow OP, you seriously complain about rolling melee but feeling like it's necessary slot 1 snaring high damage move that often can apply a hard CC or additional snare on impact while also bringing you into range of all of your other abilities?

That sounds like a handicap to you? Really? Being "forced" to slot one pretty powerful skill is a handicap?

I suppose I could tell you that magsorc is basically "forced" to slot 2-3 shields, a resto staff, streak, and the standard sorc burst skills leaving only 2 skill slots for flexibility. Any other setup on magsorc is either not a solo build, is a pet build for 1v1, or is entirely ineffective.

And I can't wait to hear your complaints once you realize that mag characters suck even worse at chasing down fleeing/kiting players.

GreenSoup2HoT

No sprint regen is one of the worst mechanics to be implented? Who would of thought.

Thogard

Vireys wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

Vireys wrote: »

Anybody want to comment on my claim?:

I claim that:

In order to use capcloser for a target that is running away (sprinting) you need to use sprint to get to a range (22m) to be able to use said cap closer.

So either Use sprint ( a big nono aparently, since zos didnt intend all specs to use sprint and its not a handicap is the concensus !).

Or let that low HP target get away and not secure the kill, because he used his secret weapon against stam class (sprint).

Haha, funny troll. Under what bridge do you live?

Can you answer the question or can you explain what you hope to achieve with *** posts like this?

Are you capable of a normal dialog?

BRO I’ll answer it for you.

If you go into a CTR BG match and you don’t have speed potions and the alchemy passives maxed out, you are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

You also need to use stampede as your gap closer because it has a snare.

If you’re DW, hidden blade has a nice snare.

If you’re Stam you should be able to sprint for at least 45 seconds before running out. Mag can sprint for about 10s lol.

Replace your cost reduction jewelry glyphs with Stam regen glyphs. If a Stam char has 30k Stam and a mag char has 10k stam, the difference is 20k... and it’s not like the gap closer you would use costs that 20k. The mag toon wouldn’t have any Stam left to break free and the Stam toon would easily win after chasing the mag toon down.

This isn’t even considering the medium armor passives.