magika sorcs and Dual wield

chris25602 · October 2017

so maybe I missed the theory discussion on this bc I do not know how to get this to work with a magika based character. I haven't tried this in at least 6 months i just remember being really frustrated... does it only work when using certain sets? what am I missing

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

This is what DW is being reduced to. Magika usage.

chris25602 · October 2017

no i understand this is not its purpose it doesn't even have any mag morphs...i just do encounter mag sorcs dual wielding and i dont get it ...

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

Ye, i;m sry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.
There are builds for DW magika in youtube.

I'm just annoyed that DW functions better across magika builds in PvP than stamina builds.
At the same time I believe that ZOS should introduce a third magika weapon in the game for variety.

chris25602 · October 2017

sry for being testy...and i agree i think mag users should have a legit 2 slot weapon option. i just looked on youtube and it seems a little janky; complete absence of any spammable ability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJuYVRPpk_E .

any better clues here?

Juhasow · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ye, i;m sry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.
There are builds for DW magika in youtube.

I'm just annoyed that DW functions better across magika builds in PvP than stamina builds.
At the same time I believe that ZOS should introduce a third magika weapon in the game for variety.

Whaaat ? You can create build for basicly every stam build with dual wield that will be effective in PvP. Most strong I would say are Nb , templar and warden sorc is also decent only Dk looks to be little underwhelming with dw.

chris25602 · October 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ye, i;m sry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.
There are builds for DW magika in youtube.

I'm just annoyed that DW functions better across magika builds in PvP than stamina builds.
At the same time I believe that ZOS should introduce a third magika weapon in the game for variety.

Whaaat ? You can create build for basicly every stam build with dual wield that will be effective in PvP. Most strong I would say are Nb , templar and warden sorc is also decent only Dk looks to be little underwhelming with dw.

yeeah so i am going to need you to come in on saturday...

mag DW ...is the convo here ...specifically looking for someone who actually runs a build like this....not getting thread jackedx id rather kill the thread....

so DW sorcs how does it work?

Emma_Overload · October 2017

Dual Wield is horrible on Mag Sorc, no matter what anyone says. It boosts your spell damage a little bit and gives you an extra set piece, that's it. You LOSE ultimate regen and magicka regen (from heavy attacks), and of course you lose access to the Destro ult and various passives.

It's not worth it, except maybe for a very niche Overload gank build.

chris25602 · October 2017

hmm...makes sense...i think that the dunmer race passive, drives this ridiculousness. giving a skill line upgrade for DW in a race that's more mag begs for a mag implementation for dw...but yeah just my bad...mag sorcs dont want a viable 2 slot weapon build.

thanks for details @emma_overload sounds like you tried this before too

Sixty5 · October 2017

Dual Wield works on Magicka builds in PVP, but in PVE you are going to want a destro staff, simply because those passives are so powerful.

It used to be more popular, but with the changes to Tri-Focus, it is honestly better in most cases to run Destro

Chronicburn · October 2017

chris25602 wrote: »

hmm...makes sense...i think that the dunmer race passive, drives this ridiculousness. giving a skill line upgrade for DW in a race that's more mag begs for a mag implementation for dw...but yeah just my bad...mag sorcs dont want a viable 2 slot weapon build.

thanks for details @emma_overload sounds like you tried this before too

Cmon ... you wouldn't want a Gandalf style sword and staff build? How cool would that be!!!

Fodore · October 2017

I see a few dw magsorcs running around with dw, I feel like it's a love it or hate it dilemma, some players love the play style of extremely aggro burst and some don't, the prefer typical sorc. Myself, I prefer typical sorc along with the majority of players, I also find dw sorc just annoying to play.

Biro123 · October 2017

<== DW magsorc here.

It does work - but its not for everyone and it does have weaknesses.

Basically what you get is (as already mentioned) an extra set piece - which should always be offensive, more base spell-damage (since DW gives more than staff) - and a damage bonus from twin-blade and blunt (which is why its always swords). Although since they added the damage bonus to fire staves, the damage gap is smaller now. (worth mentioning too, that DW on a majica class has the same dmg output as 2-hander - only you lose an extra item - which may not be a problem depending on build)

What you lose is a spammable, light-attack weaves and glyph/poison procs from one of your weapons.

Now the spammable that you lose is quite expensive for a spammable, so you can run less recov with your build and pump up your damage higher.

The playstyle is all around bursts. You set up your burst, and hope he hasn't fully healed up before landing your next burst - so its all about timing.. which kind of means less spamming = less resource use, so you can put more stats into damage (see where this is going?)

Now without a spammable to pressure opponents, that burst has to be big enough to really matter. So you need more damage - which means sacrificing sustain/chugging pots. But the benefit of pumping up damage (if you do it mostly via magica) = bigger shields too, which means re-casting them less often - so you need less recov :-)

You don't lose ultir recov if you back-bar curse and ani-cancel it with a light-attack/bar-swap (infused staff with berserker enchant ofc.)

It IS a lot of fun - but really its one of those builds which is super-effective vs poor players and not very effective vs better players since the burst is very telegraphed and heavily relies on the easily blockable/dodgeable frags.

Beardimus · October 2017

DW MagSorc has a few things going for it, 5:5:2 gear setup to name the obvious.

I've run DW since console launch. Granted at times it was back bar for various reasons when it was less effective.

However DW, (and DW MagSorc in particular) has taken Nerf after Nerf every patch for nearly 2 years so the effectiveness of it has dropped, but it's still viable. Hence i chuckle at people saying Sorc haven't had a Nerf...

I primarily went DW as i like the style idea of a battle mage - dual wands is dull. Also with the mighty OP bar swap lag i can see what damn bar im on!!!!

Biro123 · October 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

I primarily went DW as i like the style idea of a battle mage - dual wands is dull. Also with the mighty OP bar swap lag i can see what damn bar im on!!!!

Omg This! Playing DW for so long totally screws you up when you go destro/resto cus you simply cannot tell which bar you're on!

I saw you mention back-bar DW too. I used to have a nice pet build that was destro front-bar, DW lich back-bar. This let it proc lich for sustain, but have a monster set AND another 5-piece that was constantly up.. It was a great setup. Didn't need resto, cos the twilight matriarch did the heals (which I kept on passive for open-world).
But it got royally screwed when they made heavy-attacks work as pet-targetting... weaving in a heavy (or med) attack with the curse/frags/wrath burst was nice.. and a habit I couldn't get out of. So instead, I exclusively DW(or 2-hander) frontbar while running pets now.
I really don't get how more people didn't complain about that change

Asardes · October 2017

It was popular back when people used Overload quite a bit. But since the ultimate pool capacity was reduced from 1000 to 500 it has fallen out of use in both PvE (some people did vMA with overload builds) and PvP. Without using overload it's not viable since sorcerers have no spammable skills, only DoTs and delayed damage ones. Other classes such as Templar and maybe NB can still make use of 2W because they have class spammables.

Hallothiel · October 2017

I will be tbe first to admit that even after 2 years in this game I am nowhere near good but I recently made a DW sorc just for grins - and she is so much fun to play! Have yet to have real issues with sustain but then have destro on back bar to swap if necessary.

She may never be leader board but hey don't really care as love playing her.

FakeFox · October 2017

For dualwield on magicka in PvE you need to be melee so you can weave properly and you need a class based spamable that you can sustain, as heavy attacks are no option. That does not work for sorc. For PvP you can pull it off, essentially you can get more burst since your abilities hit harder and you have one setbonus more. However you still suffer from the same problems as in PvE and since Sorcs usually rely on Forcepulse for constant pressure it doesn't make much sense.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2017

Versatility - 2 5pc sets with 2 monster. I switch to a lightning staff for Heavy attack/regen and weaving la.

The sustain is excellent due to an extra 5 piece conditional proc; I haven't double dual wielded both bars since VR days wearing heavy.

I love it, it's tons of fun, but not everybody can do it.

SoLooney · October 2017

dual wield main bar is horrible for a mag sorc pve. they dont have a class spammable and need to use destro abilities. the days of overload with elegant set is pretty much dead.

pretty much only good for magplars

Lexxypwns · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ye, i;m sry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.
There are builds for DW magika in youtube.

I'm just annoyed that DW functions better across magika builds in PvP than stamina builds.
At the same time I believe that ZOS should introduce a third magika weapon in the game for variety.

It doesnt

WrathOfInnos · October 2017

I have found dual wield to work pretty well in some setups.

I sometimes run dual Moondancer swords back bar to complete a 5 piece set. Just make sure to be in that bar when using a synergy. This allows for a front bar VMA staff, 5 piece necro/Julianos, and a monster set. Lich or warlock could be used in place of Moondancer. Sorc has enough class skills to fill the dual wield bar no problem (liquid lightning, pets, surge, bound aegis, inner light, curse, execute). You will still be using staff primarily, but at least get to equip 2 swords to complete a nice set bonus. This build can easily top 35k on a dummy, and well over 40k with group buffs.

I've also had some luck with a dual wield front bar setup using Daedric tomb as a spammable. It is very difficult to sustain though, and it building for sustain will lower DPS (barely can break 30k with this setup on a Breton wearing seducer set). The other problem with this setup is you need to be in melee range to proc a spell damage glyph (light attack or heavy attack only, typically on off-hand sword). Enchants are so powerful right now that it would be a big loss not to use them, so a weapon skill like clench or wall from a back bar staff is still essential (and will proc a damage glyph from a main hand sword in front bar).

Edit: To be clear, neither of these options is BIS, but they both are good enough to get through all vet dungeons, and the first option works fine for most vet trials as well.

Yarlenzey · October 2017

Im doing it using darkstride for stamina and torug for magicka.
Sub l50 at the moment so suffers a bit at the end of life on the custom torug stuff.
Mainly as i havent done dualwield before.
Dont really care if its right, wrong, or lefthanded. Is my game to be played my way.

I dont use heal buffs often, but staying alive in most encounters without them.

Chronicburn · October 2017

Asardes wrote: »

It was popular back when people used Overload quite a bit. But since the ultimate pool capacity was reduced from 1000 to 500 it has fallen out of use in both PvE (some people did vMA with overload builds) and PvP. Without using overload it's not viable since sorcerers have no spammable skills, only DoTs and delayed damage ones. Other classes such as Templar and maybe NB can still make use of 2W because they have class spammables.

Another example of how nerfs take fun out of the game

Juhasow · October 2017

chris25602 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ye, i;m sry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.
There are builds for DW magika in youtube.

I'm just annoyed that DW functions better across magika builds in PvP than stamina builds.
At the same time I believe that ZOS should introduce a third magika weapon in the game for variety.

Whaaat ? You can create build for basicly every stam build with dual wield that will be effective in PvP. Most strong I would say are Nb , templar and warden sorc is also decent only Dk looks to be little underwhelming with dw.

yeeah so i am going to need you to come in on saturday...

mag DW ...is the convo here ...specifically looking for someone who actually runs a build like this....not getting thread jackedx id rather kill the thread....

so DW sorcs how does it work?

Mag DW sorc is based simply arund timing the burst with most dmg You can get thx for dual wield. All You need to learn is to time Your curse+endles fury+Frag+ulti(optionaly) in 1 perfectly timed combo that will melt enemie HP in 1-2 seconds. Defensive works same like destro/resto builds.

Thx for dual wield You get additional spell dmg and additional armor piece which allows You for example to wear 5/5/2 or 5/5/1/1 and few other combinations to maximize Your dmg done. You need to know that build is easily counterable by templars because they can purge curses and endless fury and also You have to watch out for Your crystal not beeing reflected. To avoid it beeing dodged You can use skills like Streak or ultimates like DBoS from fighters guild (but it's optional You have lot of offensive ultimate choices) to stun enemie before hitting him with frag.

There is more things about this build and how it works and should be played in PvP this mentioned above are just basics.

Juhasow · October 2017

Asardes wrote: »

It was popular back when people used Overload quite a bit. But since the ultimate pool capacity was reduced from 1000 to 500 it has fallen out of use in both PvE (some people did vMA with overload builds) and PvP. Without using overload it's not viable since sorcerers have no spammable skills, only DoTs and delayed damage ones. Other classes such as Templar and maybe NB can still make use of 2W because they have class spammables.

It was popular even without overload when Magicka Detonation was a thing.

Jurand80 · October 2017

Miat's addon renders any DW sorc build useless.

Juhasow · October 2017

Jurand80 wrote: »

Miat's addon renders any DW sorc build useless.

Since when DW sorc in PvP is hard-casted crystal frags spammer ? Because that's the only thing that touches sorc personally in that add on.

Lexxypwns · October 2017

I think the problem with DW sorc is that the "meta" for DW sorc is poorly thought out and built.

You give up a lot to not run destro, but you can still get some nice burst off. You'll always be inferior to destro but if you just like the playstyle you can make it work by thinking outside the box. I don't believe stacking damage and max mag works or is necessary anymore.

It's horribly inefficient to use DW and if you don't have experience I wouldn't even bother this patch. Next patch there's some interesting dw ideas that could use meteor+rune cage+frag to absolutely nuke people but I don't think you need to stack damage hardcore for that to work since 1. More people will be in medium or missing the rally burst heal and therefore easier to kill 2. Meteor and frags hit hard even without a lot of damage and you can force them to connect.

Destro sorcs may not be able to sustain rune prison, but the lack of expensive spammable may make DW sorc able to sustain it without building more sustain.

Jurand80 · October 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Jurand80 wrote: »

Miat's addon renders any DW sorc build useless.

Since when DW sorc in PvP is hard-casted crystal frags spammer ? Because that's the only thing that touches sorc personally in that add on.

There are still things in this world that you don't know. Miat also shows proced frags heading your way. Hence as long as we have this addon you can put all this DW talk in the console section.

Qbiken · October 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ye, i;m sry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.
There are builds for DW magika in youtube.

I'm just annoyed that DW functions better across magika builds in PvP than stamina builds.
At the same time I believe that ZOS should introduce a third magika weapon in the game for variety.

Whaaat ? You can create build for basicly every stam build with dual wield that will be effective in PvP. Most strong I would say are Nb , templar and warden sorc is also decent only Dk looks to be little underwhelming with dw.

Agree, bleed builds with dual wield are insanely strong in a 1v1 fight. Have faced some stamblades using DW with bleeds. If they get their bleeds/dots on me + a defiledebuff it´s RIP xD