An alternative change to active skills for armor types

krathos · October 2017

In all, I think it's a healthy change for the game to limit the use of the armor's active ability to those wearing 5 pieces of said armor type. However, this does pigeon hole some classes into playing certain styles in PvP. Namely, a lot of people run shuffle for the snare/root cleanse + immunity even in heavy armor (where the immunity portion is very short since you're wearing at most 2 medium). That wasn't what was broken about shuffle, what was broken was heavy armor and Major Evasion.

I would suggest that the secondary effect be limited by the 5 piece armor type much like the tertiary effect is diminished based on how much of that type you're wearing. So, for shuffle, you'd get the snare cleanse if you were in heavy, you'd still get increased duration of immunity based on your number of medium armor pieces, but you would not get Major Evasion unless you were in 5 medium. For harness/dampen you'd get the duration and the ward itself but you wouldnt get the increased strength or magicka return unless you were in 5 light. For immovable you would get the armor buff/duration increase but you wouldn't get the immovability effect unless you were in 5 heavy.

The reason is the only other snare removals are mist form (which is expensive and magicka classes are already mostly forced to use this for this purpose) or forward momentum. Forward momentum is really great... but you lose your burst heal unless you're on a warden. To me, this limits build creativity. I don't see an issue of letting shuffle cleanse the snare/root for heavy & light armor users but only getting major evasion if youre in medium.

Thoughts?

Irylia · October 2017

Part two of: Earthgore & destro...
Next up: shuffle snare immunity and heavy, encase you didn’t know.

There you have it folks. ^

Krotha · October 2017

I approve of this suggestion.

Heavy armor with no snare break free is going to be SO FUN. Might even have to use forward momentum now.

Minno · October 2017

Krotha wrote: »

I approve of this suggestion.

Heavy armor with no snare break free is going to be SO FUN. Might even have to use forward momentum now.

No snare removal options at all are terrible.

I feel like this patch should have created unique choices to how players can remove snares. All of them are locked behind skill lines that have huge drawbacks (vamp with mist form, 2h with choice of burst heal or immunity, sets that remove a small amount of seconds of durations, etc.)

Warden+ Templars are the only classes with skills that follow this unique approach, but they don't grant an immunity. And there are no sets that Grant an immunity either.

Just mist form+2h.

But I still think the change is good. I just don't think they did enough work to accommodate the change in a unique way to promote build diversity.

krathos · October 2017

@Minno how about changing Ring of Preservation (Circle of Protection morph from fighters guild). Reduce the cost by a lot (nobody even runs it now its so expensive) and instead of dodge cost reduction it cleanses snares/roots and provides snare immunity inside of it.

Minno · October 2017

krathos wrote: »

@Minno how about changing Ring of Preservation (Circle of Protection morph from fighters guild). Reduce the cost by a lot (nobody even runs it now its so expensive) and instead of dodge cost reduction it cleanses snares/roots and provides snare immunity inside of it.

Have to judge it against the passive for increasing your weapon DMG for the skill slotted. I agree that spell is too expensive, but giving it a direct snare immunity is worse than having shuffle being used by HA.

I'm thinking along the lines of this:

- templars - solar barrage grants immunity to snares when cast. Or when healing with a hot, have a chance to grant snare immunity (or tied to the healing passive)
- dk - grant snare immunity on ultimate use be (tied to battle roar passive). That would be cool, dive in get off your burst, dive out before the immunity end.
- nightblades - id say they have a unique way to move around without needing to purge snares (shadow image). So they don't need one.
- wardens - reduce percentage off duration of snares per frozen tree spells slotted.
- sorcs - remove all snares + grant snare immunity on streak use (has cost increase mechanic so not that OP). Could add a cooldown if we all feel it's op.

Obviously would be cool to discuss these! I feel like every class should have something unique like nightblades do in which to move around without needing speed buffs.

idk · October 2017

I think the above suggestion would bring one huge question to the game. Why can we use a skill where the main active ability of the skill doesn't work for a possible 1/3 if the builds yet the secondary part of the ability does.

If I were a new player I'd suggest there was an extreemly poor design.

There are other sources for dealing with snares.

Avran_Sylt · October 2017

Hmm. So by getting rid of the restriction of Evasion being harbored by medium armor, you now reduce the reasons for wearing medium armor? While I think that it would add more choices for heavy armor, it would punish reasons for choosing medium armor.

PathwayM · October 2017

I don't think heavy armor needs a purge like this... If you want one just run medium... There's too much imbalance between the armor sets already. The reason shuffle is op isn't because of the dodge chance... It's because of the ability to purge snares. If you think otherwise you are wrong lol. Heavy armor's biggest weakness is lack of mobility... And shuffle covers that weakness. Now heavy armor will have to put up or shut up to fulfill the dps role. I think the shuffle change is something the game needed for a long time and is going to greatly narrow the gap between the armor types.

CyrusArya · October 2017

Personally, I think this was one of the more brilliant balance changes ZOS ever did. It’s not major evasion that makes stam builds in heavy broken....being in heavy armor makes stam broken. There is simply too much synergy between the healing and heavy while being able to maintain incredible sustain and also damage. This change forces you to make a choice for the sake of a balanced build. Otherwise, heavy almost universally out performs medium.

You want the benefits of heavy armor on a dps oriented build? Well you have to choose between having a burst heal or having mobility. Or go medium and get both but sacrifice tankiness and survivability. Balance.

My only point of concern is that 3/5 classes can compensate with their class kit to a degree. Templar has a purge, Nightblade has evasion, Warden has a burst heal. This leaves stam sorc and DK out to dry. Particularly with the latter. As powerful as DK is in heavy, it is utterly lackluster in medium compared to the other classes.

krathos · October 2017

@PathwayM @Avran_Sylt except the cleanse isnt much when snares and roots get applied very frequently and medium armor buffs the duration of that immunity. in heavy youre getting 1s of immunity max. Also medium has reduced cost for dodge and sprint as well as increased sprint speed. There's an imbalance, yes, but the imbalance is that Heavy needs wrath removed. Not that is shouldn't be able to counter snares and roots.

krathos · October 2017

@CyrusArya that's my main point. Your last note about the class imbalance around it. I'd rather heavy have access to snare removal and then have wrath removed as a passive and replaced with something else.

DeadlyRecluse · October 2017

Honestly I just think they should reduce the number of snares in game dramatically, and reduce the effectiveness of most of them. Then not having snare removal wouldn't be such a dealbreaker, but having snare removal would still be nice.

krathos · October 2017

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly I just think they should reduce the number of snares in game dramatically, and reduce the effectiveness of most of them. Then not having snare removal wouldn't be such a dealbreaker, but having snare removal would still be nice.

Agreed. This would be best, period, way too many snares and theyre way too strong. But alas, it's unlikely.

DeadlyRecluse · October 2017

krathos wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly I just think they should reduce the number of snares in game dramatically, and reduce the effectiveness of most of them. Then not having snare removal wouldn't be such a dealbreaker, but having snare removal would still be nice.

Agreed. This would be best, period, way too many snares and theyre way too strong. But alas, it's unlikely.

It's absolutely unreal. In another thread, someone said something about "casting snares" and it lowkey triggered me. Nobody casts snares. Almost every class gets snares added, for free, to otherwise useful skills. Snares just exist constantly in this game.

If you are fighting a DK or a templar, you are snared. 100% of the time. And the snare is reapplied very quickly in the event of a purge. Most nightblades keep you good and snared too, without any investment in doing so.

And they are zero fun. Snaring people isn't particularly satisfying (because again, it just kinda happens for free), and fighting while snared is annoying--even when it has no impact, moving in slow motion is the antithesis of the fast, actiony combat system.

1. Remove snares from passives.
2. Make snares available via specific skills whose primary function is to snare.

Boom.

Bakkagami · October 2017

I'm alright with heavy losing out on the snare removal from shuffle. Imo, it only makes the difference between heavy and medium more pronounced. If you are in medium, you lose a lot of tankiness but as a tradeoff you gain a significant buff to mobility and evasiveness, whereas if you wanted to run heavy, you lack mobility but can soak up much more damage. In heavy you'll have to rely on smart use of gap-closers, positioning, and class skills to get around quickly. You also have the option of getting a bit more mobility back with forward momentum but at the cost of a good burst heal. Good balance is about tradeoffs. imo this is going to be the best change they've made so far. They just need to change the immovable skill to give something other than major resists as it's quite possibly, the most redundant skill in the game. minor protection for 15 sec + immovability for .8 seconds per heavy piece would make it a much better option.

Edit: also, immovable needs a cost reduction. pretty sure it costs more than actually breaking free on most of my toons.

PathwayM · October 2017

krathos wrote: »

@PathwayM @Avran_Sylt except the cleanse isnt much when snares and roots get applied very frequently and medium armor buffs the duration of that immunity. in heavy youre getting 1s of immunity max. Also medium has reduced cost for dodge and sprint as well as increased sprint speed. There's an imbalance, yes, but the imbalance is that Heavy needs wrath removed. Not that is shouldn't be able to counter snares and roots.

Wrath provides 200 weapon damage fully buffed... That's literally nothing... Remove the source for heavy armor to have the same mobility as medium and the weapon gap narrows... Removing wrath does nothing...

Krotha · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

@Minno how about changing Ring of Preservation (Circle of Protection morph from fighters guild). Reduce the cost by a lot (nobody even runs it now its so expensive) and instead of dodge cost reduction it cleanses snares/roots and provides snare immunity inside of it.

Have to judge it against the passive for increasing your weapon DMG for the skill slotted. I agree that spell is too expensive, but giving it a direct snare immunity is worse than having shuffle being used by HA.

I'm thinking along the lines of this:

- templars - solar barrage grants immunity to snares when cast. Or when healing with a hot, have a chance to grant snare immunity (or tied to the healing passive)
- dk - grant snare immunity on ultimate use be (tied to battle roar passive). That would be cool, dive in get off your burst, dive out before the immunity end.
- nightblades - id say they have a unique way to move around without needing to purge snares (shadow image). So they don't need one.
- wardens - reduce percentage off duration of snares per frozen tree spells slotted.
- sorcs - remove all snares + grant snare immunity on streak use (has cost increase mechanic so not that OP). Could add a cooldown if we all feel it's op.

Obviously would be cool to discuss these! I feel like every class should have something unique like nightblades do in which to move around without needing speed buffs.

Give DKs a 3-5 sec snare immunity after an ultimate use would be a good duration to start testing at. You would also need to factor in how that would play on a medium and light build.

Minno · October 2017

Krotha wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

@Minno how about changing Ring of Preservation (Circle of Protection morph from fighters guild). Reduce the cost by a lot (nobody even runs it now its so expensive) and instead of dodge cost reduction it cleanses snares/roots and provides snare immunity inside of it.

Have to judge it against the passive for increasing your weapon DMG for the skill slotted. I agree that spell is too expensive, but giving it a direct snare immunity is worse than having shuffle being used by HA.

I'm thinking along the lines of this:

- templars - solar barrage grants immunity to snares when cast. Or when healing with a hot, have a chance to grant snare immunity (or tied to the healing passive)
- dk - grant snare immunity on ultimate use be (tied to battle roar passive). That would be cool, dive in get off your burst, dive out before the immunity end.
- nightblades - id say they have a unique way to move around without needing to purge snares (shadow image). So they don't need one.
- wardens - reduce percentage off duration of snares per frozen tree spells slotted.
- sorcs - remove all snares + grant snare immunity on streak use (has cost increase mechanic so not that OP). Could add a cooldown if we all feel it's op.

Obviously would be cool to discuss these! I feel like every class should have something unique like nightblades do in which to move around without needing speed buffs.

Give DKs a 3-5 sec snare immunity after an ultimate use would be a good duration to start testing at. You would also need to factor in how that would play on a medium and light build.

Yes I agree, needs to be tested before live application. But would be cool to see a dk jump right on the middle of it (like they are supposed to) and start going berserker on everyone without having to be in total turtle-mode or slotting vampire for the cc immunity.

Could open up builds; tavas, minor heroism, decisive all could help DKs become more mobile.

But yea needs testing.