What Happened to Medium Scale PvP?

Abram · October 2017

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

Shaggygaming · October 2017

Abram wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

This confirms I made the right choice by turning down Solar's offer and joining VE. After the Nexus/Haxus fallout I saw this train wreck coming a mile away. Next year you'll be the same salty person with a new guild name.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ErefDIBa1uk

Satiar · October 2017

Sorry you were only in at the end of our run Shaggy, not the best time to jump aboard

manny254 · October 2017

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Abram wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

This confirms I made the right choice by turning down Solar's offer and joining VE. After the Nexus/Haxus fallout I saw this train wreck coming a mile away. Next year you'll be the same salty person with a new guild name.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ErefDIBa1uk

Did you just try to talk *** to someone by posting a video of you outnumbering them with pugs and siege? While showing off the prime gameplay of pushing r and walking forward?

Stratforge · October 2017

There is small scale and then there is zerging. No need to over-complicate things.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2017

I don't even think capping group size has been a necessity for quite some time now. As there is probably only a total of 12 players online during any given time zone that are either skilled enough or have the desire to participate in medium scale organised pvp groups at a high standard. When I was last playing ESO I even tried recruit in zone chat and didn't get a single response... except from one guy who wanted to run his lethal arrow build or something.

At launch clone would have a 24man group with a queue of like 10 people waiting in line to get into his group lol.

Shaggygaming · October 2017

Abram wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ErefDIBa1uk

manny254 wrote: »

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Abram wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

This confirms I made the right choice by turning down Solar's offer and joining VE. After the Nexus/Haxus fallout I saw this train wreck coming a mile away. Next year you'll be the same salty person with a new guild name.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ErefDIBa1uk

Did you just try to talk *** to someone by posting a video of you outnumbering them with pugs and siege? While showing off the prime gameplay of pushing r and walking forward?

Not sure what video you're talking about. I only used two ground oils and it was 1vX with friends.

Vilestride · October 2017

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I don't even think capping group size has been a necessity for quite some time now. As there is probably only a total of 12 players online during any given time zone that are either skilled enough or have the desire to participate in medium scale organised pvp groups at a high standard. When I was last playing ESO I even tried recruit in zone chat and didn't get a single response... except from one guy who wanted to run his lethal arrow build or something.

At launch clone would have a 24man group with a queue of like 10 people waiting in line to get into his group lol.

This is on point. I admire groups who are able to recruit what they are looking for in these dark times. It's awesome to see people like crown and haronin still be able to find the few gems there are left.

Anazasi · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

To prove my point, last night I had my group hiding inside nikel waiting to jump on a group that was sieging. They got in, took the back flag and was on the front flag. I wanted to let it flip so we could get a double tick as the wall was being repaired. But they found us too early and we had to wipe them. The tell I got was from the DC player was "nice zerg 8v40". I had a group of 20 and no one else was at the outpost. Players exaggerate numbers because they simply can't count. I think it's a male trait honestly, everything seems larger than it actually is.

@Anazasi Like the people you're referring to, you also seem to twist numbers to suit you.

There are addons that count numbers, and you can see the number of unique names that you do damage to / who do damage to you.

I was there with my group of 8 (9 in group with one fighting at some other keep), and counted five DC other than my group just as we ran in. It was our first excursion of the night after a few duels, and after wiping some of your crew and a red group outside, we were the only ones who sieged. I had won 2 duels and lost 2 prior, so per my kill counter we had 26 kills fighting outside before siege was over.

When the few DC pugs/randoms went upstairs, my group cleared guards, then went front flag. My nova on the area that your group was in as you popped out of stealth hit 24 unique names (excluding three pets). The dude who stayed back flag didn't get hit from the bomb and ran upstairs confirmed that there were another dozen+ AD up there.

Here's the screen shot I took post-stealth bomb as we laughed. We deserved to wipe there, as we wouldn't have expected 24 players to stealth bomb 8 using 11 ultimates blown simultaneously:

I'm not sure who whispered you, but it was 8 vs 24, with another 5 vs 12+ upstairs.

TLDR: You had more than 20 and there were a lot more AD there too.

You made an assumption about the players there. You assumed that just because they are all AD, and I happen to be there also that I have control over those not in my group. As I stated to the whisper i received, I only had 20 in my group. I did not notice others outside of group but no one knows everyone at every place. Before you start bashing on me and my group. I want to point out that just because you run 8 in your group the rest of your faction doesn't. And from the past experience of the last several campaigns, your faction has no problem stacking numbers. So end this little he said she said discussion before it becomes more personal than it needs to be. Just remember, an AD keep flagged, and an AD group responded. We did not have any other information. So if you have "data" that would preclude the information readily available through normal means then perhaps you can assist ZOS in fixing some of the bugs. Aside from that how have you been? Hope you are doing ok.

I should also point out that by your own picture you are only showing 17 AD. I am not so certain your evidence supports your statement. Perhaps we should look for other sources.

Oh please give me an actual date and let me go through video footage. I typically record every raid and would love to actually search for something useful.

On another side note, isn't it ironic that DC players are now complaining about group size. I find it normal that factions go through the rise and fall of numbers, but to come to the forums and start complaining about it is rather funny and to have the "king of numbers" leading the charge is really interesting. Now that the shoe perhaps is on the other foot, don't get me wrong, I've complained about it too. But to be fare, for the past year or more i have never done anything more or less than what I have always said. DK runs 16 to 24 casual players who are out to simply have fun. If you read more into that than what has been said then perhaps it's time for you to take a break till your faction has numbers again. But in all honesty, I don't really have a sympathetic ear for DC. I am capable of reading a map and while my desire to stay off DC home keeps out of respect for the population balances, thus encouraging DC to focus more on the EP side of the map and allow a status quo to exists. However, should DC push into the yellow side of the map you should expect at some point to get pushed back.

Anazasi · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Fair point, on the consistency in varied conditions. That minimum number is not close to 24 however, so would you disagree that a group that can achieve similar results consistently with 8-12 as opposed to 16+ demonstrates more cohesion and skillful play? Do you disagree that for a smaller group to achieve similar results as a larger group, wether that be proportionately or absolutely, it is incumbent on each individual member of the smaller group to be more skilled? Cus I think that's the entire point of the claim that larger groups require less skill.

@CyrusArya With the numbers these days, unless you're fighting a group who runs heartland+plaguedoctor type builds, 2-3 damage ult, 1 supporting (negate) ult, and 1 mitigation ult (sleet) is about right to kill most of whatever who take full (or most) of the damage output.

The challenge then becomes being that most small groups will tend to run more stam builds (no destro), so group-wiping capabilities are more limited to those who are within a dawnbreaker area and whether combat frenzy lets you chain dawnbreakers.

The more you want to kill, the more destros you need - or the more players you need who can get their dawnbreakers up more quickly. Depending on builds, and group composition, some groups of 5-6 might be able to win consistently vs opposing 30+, though with destro being nerfed and less pure damage magicka builds in small groups these days, I believe that an 8-12 (and probably closer to the 12 than the 8) will be the minimum to fight and win vs zergs.

no one as even tried to acknowledge the damage to heal ratio that exists in this game. You all want to debate ulti gen and yet you have not even looked at the damage to reaction time factors or the damage to heal time ratios. In reality the only people who have any control or actual numbers on any of this is ZOS and you know they are the true data puppet masters. So my advice is play at your own risk and enjoy. Some days you get to be the winner and other days you get to be....well you know.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2017

manny254 wrote: »

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Abram wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

This confirms I made the right choice by turning down Solar's offer and joining VE. After the Nexus/Haxus fallout I saw this train wreck coming a mile away. Next year you'll be the same salty person with a new guild name.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ErefDIBa1uk

Did you just try to talk *** to someone by posting a video of you outnumbering them with pugs and siege? While showing off the prime gameplay of pushing r and walking forward?

There's a reason why the clip is only 24s long :P

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Abram wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The biggest issue groups who cap their numbers face is honestly dealing with the blowback from all the people who don't make the cut.

Rekt

This confirms I made the right choice by turning down Solar's offer and joining VE. After the Nexus/Haxus fallout I saw this train wreck coming a mile away. Next year you'll be the same salty person with a new guild name.

Guess its good I never offered you a spot then eh

whatever it takes for you to feel good about yourself. What flavour is the punch there, I'm guessing salt?

IxSTALKERxI · October 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Fair point, on the consistency in varied conditions. That minimum number is not close to 24 however, so would you disagree that a group that can achieve similar results consistently with 8-12 as opposed to 16+ demonstrates more cohesion and skillful play? Do you disagree that for a smaller group to achieve similar results as a larger group, wether that be proportionately or absolutely, it is incumbent on each individual member of the smaller group to be more skilled? Cus I think that's the entire point of the claim that larger groups require less skill.

@CyrusArya With the numbers these days, unless you're fighting a group who runs heartland+plaguedoctor type builds, 2-3 damage ult, 1 supporting (negate) ult, and 1 mitigation ult (sleet) is about right to kill most of whatever who take full (or most) of the damage output.

The challenge then becomes being that most small groups will tend to run more stam builds (no destro), so group-wiping capabilities are more limited to those who are within a dawnbreaker area and whether combat frenzy lets you chain dawnbreakers.

The more you want to kill, the more destros you need - or the more players you need who can get their dawnbreakers up more quickly. Depending on builds, and group composition, some groups of 5-6 might be able to win consistently vs opposing 30+, though with destro being nerfed and less pure damage magicka builds in small groups these days, I believe that an 8-12 (and probably closer to the 12 than the 8) will be the minimum to fight and win vs zergs.

no one as even tried to acknowledge the damage to heal ratio that exists in this game. You all want to debate ulti gen and yet you have not even looked at the damage to reaction time factors or the damage to heal time ratios. In reality the only people who have any control or actual numbers on any of this is ZOS and you know they are the true data puppet masters. So my advice is play at your own risk and enjoy. Some days you get to be the winner and other days you get to be....well you know.

You're right about this part. Healing: DPS ratios are probably the most important part and will determine what you're group is capable of. The secret to running smaller groups is actually min-maxing the groups healing & dps outputs via good theorycrafting & strong players and having the correct healing:dps ratio.

Edit: to comment on the Zos part.

Zos controls this by having a maximum AoE healing cap of 6 targets on every ability in the game.
Also the time to kill is adjusted via battlespirit. Although it's a pretty lazy way to balance the constant power creep that happens each patch.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2017

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Fair point, on the consistency in varied conditions. That minimum number is not close to 24 however, so would you disagree that a group that can achieve similar results consistently with 8-12 as opposed to 16+ demonstrates more cohesion and skillful play? Do you disagree that for a smaller group to achieve similar results as a larger group, wether that be proportionately or absolutely, it is incumbent on each individual member of the smaller group to be more skilled? Cus I think that's the entire point of the claim that larger groups require less skill.

@CyrusArya With the numbers these days, unless you're fighting a group who runs heartland+plaguedoctor type builds, 2-3 damage ult, 1 supporting (negate) ult, and 1 mitigation ult (sleet) is about right to kill most of whatever who take full (or most) of the damage output.

The challenge then becomes being that most small groups will tend to run more stam builds (no destro), so group-wiping capabilities are more limited to those who are within a dawnbreaker area and whether combat frenzy lets you chain dawnbreakers.

The more you want to kill, the more destros you need - or the more players you need who can get their dawnbreakers up more quickly. Depending on builds, and group composition, some groups of 5-6 might be able to win consistently vs opposing 30+, though with destro being nerfed and less pure damage magicka builds in small groups these days, I believe that an 8-12 (and probably closer to the 12 than the 8) will be the minimum to fight and win vs zergs.

no one as even tried to acknowledge the damage to heal ratio that exists in this game. You all want to debate ulti gen and yet you have not even looked at the damage to reaction time factors or the damage to heal time ratios. In reality the only people who have any control or actual numbers on any of this is ZOS and you know they are the true data puppet masters. So my advice is play at your own risk and enjoy. Some days you get to be the winner and other days you get to be....well you know.

You're right about this part. Healing: DPS ratios are probably the most important part and will determine what you're group is capable of. The secret to running smaller groups is actually min-maxing the groups healing & dps outputs via good theorycrafting & strong players and having the correct healing:dps ratio.

Edit: to comment on the Zos part.

Zos controls this by having a maximum AoE healing cap of 6 targets on every ability in the game.
Also the time to kill is adjusted via battlespirit. Although it's a pretty lazy way to balance the constant power creep that happens each patch.

Tbh I somewhat disagree. Imo movement and leadership are the main defining factors in these types of group. In general if you can get away with 1 or 2 ultis per push instead of 4 because your dmg is higher then it's gnna help but in most cases judging when to move in and out as well as positioning as a group is far more important.

Anazasi · October 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Fair point, on the consistency in varied conditions. That minimum number is not close to 24 however, so would you disagree that a group that can achieve similar results consistently with 8-12 as opposed to 16+ demonstrates more cohesion and skillful play? Do you disagree that for a smaller group to achieve similar results as a larger group, wether that be proportionately or absolutely, it is incumbent on each individual member of the smaller group to be more skilled? Cus I think that's the entire point of the claim that larger groups require less skill.

@CyrusArya With the numbers these days, unless you're fighting a group who runs heartland+plaguedoctor type builds, 2-3 damage ult, 1 supporting (negate) ult, and 1 mitigation ult (sleet) is about right to kill most of whatever who take full (or most) of the damage output.

The challenge then becomes being that most small groups will tend to run more stam builds (no destro), so group-wiping capabilities are more limited to those who are within a dawnbreaker area and whether combat frenzy lets you chain dawnbreakers.

The more you want to kill, the more destros you need - or the more players you need who can get their dawnbreakers up more quickly. Depending on builds, and group composition, some groups of 5-6 might be able to win consistently vs opposing 30+, though with destro being nerfed and less pure damage magicka builds in small groups these days, I believe that an 8-12 (and probably closer to the 12 than the 8) will be the minimum to fight and win vs zergs.

no one as even tried to acknowledge the damage to heal ratio that exists in this game. You all want to debate ulti gen and yet you have not even looked at the damage to reaction time factors or the damage to heal time ratios. In reality the only people who have any control or actual numbers on any of this is ZOS and you know they are the true data puppet masters. So my advice is play at your own risk and enjoy. Some days you get to be the winner and other days you get to be....well you know.

You're right about this part. Healing: DPS ratios are probably the most important part and will determine what you're group is capable of. The secret to running smaller groups is actually min-maxing the groups healing & dps outputs via good theorycrafting & strong players and having the correct healing:dps ratio.

Edit: to comment on the Zos part.

Zos controls this by having a maximum AoE healing cap of 6 targets on every ability in the game.
Also the time to kill is adjusted via battlespirit. Although it's a pretty lazy way to balance the constant power creep that happens each patch.

Tbh I somewhat disagree. Imo movement and leadership are the main defining factors in these types of group. In general if you can get away with 1 or 2 ultis per push instead of 4 because your dmg is higher then it's gnna help but in most cases judging when to move in and out as well as positioning as a group is far more important.

You are right also. All of these factors are correct. Damage, heals, movement, coordination, Ultis, and size are all determining factors. I like to think of it as a car with the raid leader driving. You can have a sports car, a sedan, or the mini van, we see them all on, each has advantages and disadvantages, but none of them are wrong.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2017

Well yeah of course. That was all presuming that you've already mastered leadership/co-ordination etc. and you have good players. Not really any point trying to downsize and min max etc if you haven't mastered the basics.

Crown · October 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

You made an assumption about the players there. You assumed that just because they are all AD, and I happen to be there also that I have control over those not in my group. As I stated to the whisper i received, I only had 20 in my group. I did not notice others outside of group but no one knows everyone at every place.

@Anazasi You're right that I made an assumption that anyone who is stealthing on you and moving perfectly with you is running in your group. There must have been 4 randoms who did better than your own players in sticking on crown ;-)

I never said that the dozen upstairs were part of your group, just that they were there. If you put your head in the ground, that doesn't make the people around you disappear!

Anazasi wrote: »

Before you start bashing on me and my group. I want to point out that just because you run 8 in your group the rest of your faction doesn't.

I'm not bashing on you and your group - it's impressive that you can still keep that many players consistently at this point in game. I run 8 because I only have 8, not because I don't want more. If there were more competent players (or even those who want to learn) who wanted to run double that, I'd be thrilled and happily bring them in. At times when we're dealing with faction stacks or dethroning, I'd happily run 24 as well - I'd probably split it into two groups and keep somewhat separated at the same keep, so as to better recover in case of 50+ opponents getting us stuck, but that's off topic.

Anazasi wrote: »

And from the past experience of the last several campaigns, your faction has no problem stacking numbers. So end this little he said she said discussion before it becomes more personal than it needs to be. Just remember, an AD keep flagged, and an AD group responded. We did not have any other information.

Again I'm not bashing on you or your group - you did what you were supposed to do for the map, and that's commendable considering how many of the old crew don't care these days. Sitting at Arrius mine with 2 friends farming randoms, and running from anything more than 8 other players who seems organised tends to be the norm these days for most of the old folks.

You're talking about "my faction".. For a long time (since I came back from a break around one tamriel) I haven't cared about faction, map, or campaign. I play all three factions these days.. Small (2-4) on AD, now that VE is gone we take what we can get (usually 6-8) on DC, and IC on EP (as AD and DC almost always own the districts so it's easier to find fights as EP).

Anazasi wrote: »

So if you have "data" that would preclude the information readily available through normal means then perhaps you can assist ZOS in fixing some of the bugs.

Most of the addons that count players don't work as well as they did a year ago due to changes in the API. Most of them now work based on looking for unique names in your damage and healing logs, and don't count the names of pets or guards. I know there were 24 players under my nova as my player counter (based on damage) went from 0 to 24 as the nova hit - you can see that on the screen shot.

Anazasi wrote: »

Aside from that how have you been? Hope you are doing ok.

We're doing great! Internet still sucks (using wireless with a Ubiquiti PowerBeam) but everything else about the new house is great. We lost our home to a fire almost 5 years ago, and we're finally back in a good place. I'm thinking about upgrading to an AirFibre from the PowerBeam, though the cost is significant. Looking at budget, I can either get an amazing massage chair, or the AirFibre with this quarter's toy/hobby budget..

Anazasi wrote: »

I should also point out that by your own picture you are only showing 17 AD. I am not so certain your evidence supports your statement. Perhaps we should look for other sources.

Evidence is the little yellow 24. I don't care enough to shadowplay as much these days, as uploading with our internet makes everything else unusable (so I don't stream anymore either).

In this case, we can say that factually:
1. You had 20 players in your group.
2. My nova hit 24 players in your stack.

We can thus deduce that there were 4 non-DK players stacked with you.

We can then say that factually:
1. There were about a dozen other AD upstairs
2. You were unaware of those AD

There's nothing wrong with that.. I think you miss debating with me so much that you're jumping at the wrong part of my statements ;-)

I tend to send a magBlade (if I have one available) to watch where any opponents are coming in when we're hiding out of sight of a breach, or put someone on oils above the breach to tag opponents in case someone else kills them. Add that to your SOP!

Anazasi wrote: »

Oh please give me an actual date and let me go through video footage. I typically record every raid and would love to actually search for something useful.

Per the screen shot it was just after 8pm (top middle). The date would have been the night before your post as you stated earlier. See... You're getting distracted in our debate... Keep to the logical progression of thoughts!

Anazasi wrote: »

On another side note, isn't it ironic that DC players are now complaining about group size. I find it normal that factions go through the rise and fall of numbers, but to come to the forums and start complaining about it is rather funny

All factions complain about numbers. The small groups complain about anyone who runs 2-3 more players than they do. The medium groups complain about anyone who runs 5-6 more players than they do. The large groups complain about faction stacks. How many times in the old days did people think that we were running multiple groups? Other than that time we crowned Lolimage with 6 different group leaders taking direction, and the ocasional second group with those waiting for a spot to open up, it never happened. Seeing a second group (or even a dozen randoms/pugs) in the area automatically makes it part of whatever group is recognized! You should know that by now.. If PD or BoD was in the same area as VE, they were automatically VE raid #2.

Anazasi wrote: »

and to have the "king of numbers" leading the charge is really interesting.

Again, you seem to think I'm complaining. I'm simply pointing out where you were wrong (you know how much I enjoy doing that) about numbers. If anything, I did feel a little bit of salt about being stealth bombed by 3 times our number, but that passed quickly, and we got you back later at Chalman when you were fighting the red emp group (that was one of the best bombs we've had since we started running medium groups).

Anazasi wrote: »

Now that the shoe perhaps is on the other foot, don't get me wrong, I've complained about it too. But to be fare, for the past year or more i have never done anything more or less than what I have always said. DK runs 16 to 24 casual players who are out to simply have fun. If you read more into that than what has been said then perhaps it's time for you to take a break till your faction has numbers again. But in all honesty, I don't really have a sympathetic ear for DC. I am capable of reading a map and while my desire to stay off DC home keeps out of respect for the population balances, thus encouraging DC to focus more on the EP side of the map and allow a status quo to exists. However, should DC push into the yellow side of the map you should expect at some point to get pushed back.

All three factions are the same.. There are people who look at the map and try to do what's best for it (and many if not most of those make not-so-great strategic decisions), and there are people who just go out to do what they want - be it find fights, be annoying, pull opponents away from critical locations, etc. You should see DC zone every time someone hits Kingscrest thinking that they're being strategic (at the same time as Aleswell or Ash is lost). There's no central management or overall commander of any faction (I miss the old days), so talking about one faction as a whole really doesn't do it justice.

Last night I had 7-10 (varied over an hour) players on AD, and we spent some good time having fun around Bleakers. After Drac spent the better part of a half hour (some people said it was closer to an hour) farming AD upstairs at Fare, we decided to come back and cleared them out. I bring that up, as I saw that you had a good number of players doing the same thing. The same strategies work against almost any group that plays the "full tank with proxy & destro" though the more you have the easier it is to recover (and as you said in another post the healing ratio is relevant as well). I find that this play style promotes being lazy and doesn't help develop the skills it takes to play in non-large-groups. It works well vs lesser numbers of skilled players, or greater numbers of unorganised players, but as soon as you lack the critical number of players in group for the proxy/destro to kill consistently, the group is rather useless.

TLDR: I wasn't bashing on Taran, DK, or the numbers he ran. I was simply pointing out (with supporting screen shot) that his numbers were wrong.

P.S. I miss debating with you.

Crown · October 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

no one as even tried to acknowledge the damage to heal ratio that exists in this game. You all want to debate ulti gen and yet you have not even looked at the damage to reaction time factors or the damage to heal time ratios.

I suggest trying to run a group with no healers. Everyone is responsible for their own survivability. You will have people die a lot, but it gives them some great training on how not to rely on the group to keep them up. They'll learn better movement, better awareness, and better use and timing of their skills.

The damage to healing ratios are messed up, but you also have to consider the math behind mitigation as well. Running one "survivability" set vs a "power" set, how much does that actually affect your output (damage or healing). If everyone runs one such set, how much less healing your group has to output..

To this day I'm still surprised at how few people do the math behind the sets and play.

Irylia · October 2017

Rickter wrote: »

Its on Shor.

lol it may seem like im trolling but i mean, I keep saying this.

I run Requiem. I usually have between 7-14 usually more around 10. That's DC. pretty much it for DC.

EP has Dreadlords but honestly idk where theyve been for the last two weeks. EP has no one. recently we've seen <Generations of Honor> and <Raging Potatoes> both fielding 6-10 each. AD has <DEAD WAIT> a 6 man group. and well. thats it besides whoever else comes on the server whenever they feel like it.

Ive had 6v5 and 6v6 quite a few times at this point with Dead Wait. Ive gone 14 v 20 against Dreadlords, this is a nightly occurrence on Shor.

Thats medium scale. right? of course it is. Its right there. I'll tell you what happened to medium scale:

No it was not Wrobel. No it was not balance changes - its the players. always had been. Medium scale is up to YOU - its a META thats the DEFINITION of meta - something you decide as players not determined by the developers. Raid leaders give up. they quit not because theyre "frustrated with the game" lets be real - they burned out. Or did you think you could run 7 nights a week for 5 hours or more and keep that up for 3 years?

The legends are gone. stop talking about them. They only lurk the forums. You need to look to the future if you want this game or the glory days to return.

start capping your group size. (if it means that much to you). Stop force feeding onto vivec. Accept that you will have days where pvp isnt going to be that great and some days you will have the pvp in your life and STICK WITH IT.

Thats what I did. I went onto Shor after having the time of my life on Azura's Star. We all know what Sotha was like and i pride myself as one of the first DC guilds to not support the shenanigans and migrate to Amalexia. Almalexia was DOOMED and converted to Shor. I was tired of moving server to server and became determined to stick with it through thick and thin and now I run 10-ish mans mon-thurs.

Ya'll need to be prepared to build. its like a start up company. its going to be tough in the beginning. but you need to stick with it and it happens.

what happened to medium scale? the players are too lazy to make it a thing anymore. All the enthusiastic launch raid leaders have quit. all thats left are the followers that are kinda leading because no one else will. It's a lot of work and you have to put in elbow grease for it to happen.

With that being said: There is a medium scale DC presence on Shor Mon-Thurs 7:30PM - 10:30PM EST. Dont show up at 10 o'clock then complain no one was around. If you want to GvG feel free to message m in game, we can work out anything you want. This isnt a challenge. Im not saying we're going to whoop up on ya. Im saying, if youd rather just fight another guild, for fun, away from objectives, I am open to that.

We are also looking for smaller fights that don’t always lead to the ball zerg. If that means playing in shor we might have to do just that. Our one issue with shor is ep isn’t generally 2 bar vs 1 bar ad Dc. And we don’t enjoy playing on the dominant faction so we head to vivec where we can put ourselves between both enemy factions and away from ours.

If more ad and Dc guilds show up so will animosity.

By the way if requiem is interested in small group pvp you should join the gvg discord with your group. We are expanding the groups that are already in there and trying to get some gvg pvp consistently running. Fun fights with a zero toxicity policy.

I’ll send you a link so you can invite you even group.

Anazasi wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

No the 12 to 16 still exists. I prefer it but when my 16 man group draws in a 48+ players because they are tired of wiping to us we had to increase size. If DC and EP would learn how not to stack up and actually PVP without overwhelming numbers the zerg race would have never occurred. Please do not say take your group to some other place on the map and make a fight because i think you all know what happens then as well. DC and EP have no desire to fight medium sized coordinated. Even Dracarys has went from 16 to full 24. They run around casting 4 destro's now at a time. I think someone is a little afraid of the destro nerf that is inbound. Escalation is the end result of loss. To prove my point, last night I had my group hiding inside nikel waiting to jump on a group that was sieging. They got in, took the back flag and was on the front flag. I wanted to let it flip so we could get a double tick as the wall was being repaired. But they found us too early and we had to wipe them. The tell I got was from the DC player was "nice zerg 8v40". I had a group of 20 and no one else was at the outpost. Players exaggerate numbers because they simply can't count. I think it's a male trait honestly, everything seems larger than it actually is.

Dracarys isn't playing 24 ppl. We had a max of 17 (had 2 trials) in group last night although most of the night we were 15-16.
We also play regularly play 8-14 as well as people in guild small scaling.

At the end of raid last night I was 596:0 k:d

It's completely wrong to say that to deal with more numbers you need more players.
You need more focus and teamwork and to build for different situations.

As a leader I call for the number of destro's I think is required and players in my group use their judgement whether to use them. We are using more destro's on you when your group is bigger / you have more pugs around you.

Earthgore as said at the time was a really bad idea. I actually have no clue why ZOS added it. But as predicted before the patch we don't use it on all chars. Actually we only have like 4-5 I think (depends who's online)

As a guild we have never had more than 18 in group and I think this would be for maybe 6h out of the hundreds of hours playing as a guild we have run. (Ts even only has 20 slots)

I think the fact that you might have more running along with you instead of in group with you might be the distinction here. I'm not perfect on estimating a group size nor is anyone else probably but the numbers that gravitate towards your group and the numbers that gravitate towards my group are probably less important. The worst part is when you chase my group around even when we purposely break and head to other locations. Don't get me wrong, I'm flattered that we offer good fights but, seriously we are not now nor will we be on your level of meta or group play. And when we get a win against Dracarys it's not because of better builds or meta's it's because you made a tactical error and we capitalized on it. Our group is comprised of a solid diverse mix of casual players looking to simply have fun. The fact that we are able to run against you all as often as we do is the testament of ESO "fun" factor and my ability to hold the group and guild together as long as I have. It's not easy nor is it pleasurable anymore. If I had 16 players of the same caliber as Dracarys, where I don't have to nightly remind everyone the mechanics of PVP, or play mother hen, or if they simply stayed on crown and did what needed to be done as a group the outcomes would be extremely different. I'm not saying i hate my group, In fact it's the exact opposite. I have over the last 3 years made some remarkable friends and have accepted that my nature of constantly teaching and evaluating performance has probably made DK one of the more stable guilds without DRAMA. So while AD has the ability to match your meta and style of play, if that community decided to pull together and do so; which they won't because they actually despise the meta you play. The moral i suppose is this. I will always admire and respect you guys. Not because of your meta but because of the caliber of players you have collected. I do not know of any NA PC group that can match your level of play. You deserve a lot of credit and respect on that achievement alone. But get drunk more often, so you make more mistakes that I can take advantage of.

Skilled because they can destro flood the area. In that regards, sure, no one can compete with their “skill”. Break it down where they don’t have 16 with stacked destro vd’s and they would be broken.

More skillful than the average pug, I’ll give you that. Skillful enough to hold their own in a small scale group vs another organized group? Debatable.

I’d challenge any group to a gvg.

We also are starting a gvg discord for the many groups already in it and for whoever shows any interest in those fights. 2-5 people.

Hit me up if you want a link

Lexxypwns · October 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Fair point, on the consistency in varied conditions. That minimum number is not close to 24 however, so would you disagree that a group that can achieve similar results consistently with 8-12 as opposed to 16+ demonstrates more cohesion and skillful play? Do you disagree that for a smaller group to achieve similar results as a larger group, wether that be proportionately or absolutely, it is incumbent on each individual member of the smaller group to be more skilled? Cus I think that's the entire point of the claim that larger groups require less skill.

@CyrusArya With the numbers these days, unless you're fighting a group who runs heartland+plaguedoctor type builds, 2-3 damage ult, 1 supporting (negate) ult, and 1 mitigation ult (sleet) is about right to kill most of whatever who take full (or most) of the damage output.

The challenge then becomes being that most small groups will tend to run more stam builds (no destro), so group-wiping capabilities are more limited to those who are within a dawnbreaker area and whether combat frenzy lets you chain dawnbreakers.

The more you want to kill, the more destros you need - or the more players you need who can get their dawnbreakers up more quickly. Depending on builds, and group composition, some groups of 5-6 might be able to win consistently vs opposing 30+, though with destro being nerfed and less pure damage magicka builds in small groups these days, I believe that an 8-12 (and probably closer to the 12 than the 8) will be the minimum to fight and win vs zergs.

no one as even tried to acknowledge the damage to heal ratio that exists in this game. You all want to debate ulti gen and yet you have not even looked at the damage to reaction time factors or the damage to heal time ratios. In reality the only people who have any control or actual numbers on any of this is ZOS and you know they are the true data puppet masters. So my advice is play at your own risk and enjoy. Some days you get to be the winner and other days you get to be....well you know.

You're right about this part. Healing: DPS ratios are probably the most important part and will determine what you're group is capable of. The secret to running smaller groups is actually min-maxing the groups healing & dps outputs via good theorycrafting & strong players and having the correct healing:dps ratio.

Edit: to comment on the Zos part.

Zos controls this by having a maximum AoE healing cap of 6 targets on every ability in the game.
Also the time to kill is adjusted via battlespirit. Although it's a pretty lazy way to balance the constant power creep that happens each patch.

Tbh I somewhat disagree. Imo movement and leadership are the main defining factors in these types of group. In general if you can get away with 1 or 2 ultis per push instead of 4 because your dmg is higher then it's gnna help but in most cases judging when to move in and out as well as positioning as a group is far more important.

Moving properly is irrelevant without the proper healing/damage. Its all good to kite and avoid a bomb, but you know as well as I that it doesn't matter how good you kite if you're never able to get your own bomb off then you're just wasting time running through the hills of cyrodiil. A bit of a "which came first the chicken or the egg" type deal.

Lexxypwns · October 2017

Satiar wrote: »

Sorry you were only in at the end of our run Shaggy, not the best time to jump aboard

Sad to hear VE is leaving. Idk if you remember this or not, but one of my favorite ESO moments came in a VE group. It was the week before 1.6 dropped, we'd all seen the reality that was the CP system and the changes to dynamic ulti gen and such and the last week of PVP there was a feeling of enjoy it while it lasts.

Anyway, there were 7 of us and we were fighting on the mill side of alessia, going up the hill towards the field behind the farm, there were like 10-15 pugs visible and we pushed them and suddenly out of nowhere we were in a sea of like 40 AD. Of cour se, these were the days of dynamic ulti gen and we had 2 DKs in group as well as Jules as our healer, but we managed to wipe most of them and disengage, but as we thought we were cleaning up more pugs just kept coming and coming. I think we held for like 45 minutes to an hour against just wave after wave of AD before pulling back inside the keep. It was crazy because I knew as it was going on that I'd never get another fight like that.

Satiar · October 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sorry you were only in at the end of our run Shaggy, not the best time to jump aboard

Sad to hear VE is leaving. Idk if you remember this or not, but one of my favorite ESO moments came in a VE group. It was the week before 1.6 dropped, we'd all seen the reality that was the CP system and the changes to dynamic ulti gen and such and the last week of PVP there was a feeling of enjoy it while it lasts.

Anyway, there were 7 of us and we were fighting on the mill side of alessia, going up the hill towards the field behind the farm, there were like 10-15 pugs visible and we pushed them and suddenly out of nowhere we were in a sea of like 40 AD. Of cour se, these were the days of dynamic ulti gen and we had 2 DKs in group as well as Jules as our healer, but we managed to wipe most of them and disengage, but as we thought we were cleaning up more pugs just kept coming and coming. I think we held for like 45 minutes to an hour against just wave after wave of AD before pulling back inside the keep. It was crazy because I knew as it was going on that I'd never get another fight like that.

I remember that. Me, you, Agrippa, Jules... I forget the other 3.

Always wished you’d stuck around Lexy, there were many good times!

Lexxypwns · October 2017

Satiar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sorry you were only in at the end of our run Shaggy, not the best time to jump aboard

Sad to hear VE is leaving. Idk if you remember this or not, but one of my favorite ESO moments came in a VE group. It was the week before 1.6 dropped, we'd all seen the reality that was the CP system and the changes to dynamic ulti gen and such and the last week of PVP there was a feeling of enjoy it while it lasts.

Anyway, there were 7 of us and we were fighting on the mill side of alessia, going up the hill towards the field behind the farm, there were like 10-15 pugs visible and we pushed them and suddenly out of nowhere we were in a sea of like 40 AD. Of cour se, these were the days of dynamic ulti gen and we had 2 DKs in group as well as Jules as our healer, but we managed to wipe most of them and disengage, but as we thought we were cleaning up more pugs just kept coming and coming. I think we held for like 45 minutes to an hour against just wave after wave of AD before pulling back inside the keep. It was crazy because I knew as it was going on that I'd never get another fight like that.

I remember that. Me, you, Agrippa, Jules... I forget the other 3.

Always wished you’d stuck around Lexy, there were many good times!

After IR I just never got interested enough in large scale PVP again to meet the activity levels you guys liked, especially after the DC reroll when I was also running with LoM and Short Bus as well as finding time to solo. I had good times running with you guys again after this, but I'm also smart enough to know that I'm not running a build optimized for your group and that's a wasted slot and I just wasn't willing to have different builds for every group I ran with. I usually just opted to run with you guys when it was smaller groups because of this, once there's a full group then not being optimized starts to drag everyone down.

Honestly, that type of *** in general is why I avoid large scale PVP, either you're optimized or you're dragging your group down, especially in the VD era and I don't want to be on either side of that equation.

Vilestride · October 2017

Irylia wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Its on Shor.

lol it may seem like im trolling but i mean, I keep saying this.

I run Requiem. I usually have between 7-14 usually more around 10. That's DC. pretty much it for DC.

EP has Dreadlords but honestly idk where theyve been for the last two weeks. EP has no one. recently we've seen <Generations of Honor> and <Raging Potatoes> both fielding 6-10 each. AD has <DEAD WAIT> a 6 man group. and well. thats it besides whoever else comes on the server whenever they feel like it.

Ive had 6v5 and 6v6 quite a few times at this point with Dead Wait. Ive gone 14 v 20 against Dreadlords, this is a nightly occurrence on Shor.

Thats medium scale. right? of course it is. Its right there. I'll tell you what happened to medium scale:

No it was not Wrobel. No it was not balance changes - its the players. always had been. Medium scale is up to YOU - its a META thats the DEFINITION of meta - something you decide as players not determined by the developers. Raid leaders give up. they quit not because theyre "frustrated with the game" lets be real - they burned out. Or did you think you could run 7 nights a week for 5 hours or more and keep that up for 3 years?

The legends are gone. stop talking about them. They only lurk the forums. You need to look to the future if you want this game or the glory days to return.

start capping your group size. (if it means that much to you). Stop force feeding onto vivec. Accept that you will have days where pvp isnt going to be that great and some days you will have the pvp in your life and STICK WITH IT.

Thats what I did. I went onto Shor after having the time of my life on Azura's Star. We all know what Sotha was like and i pride myself as one of the first DC guilds to not support the shenanigans and migrate to Amalexia. Almalexia was DOOMED and converted to Shor. I was tired of moving server to server and became determined to stick with it through thick and thin and now I run 10-ish mans mon-thurs.

Ya'll need to be prepared to build. its like a start up company. its going to be tough in the beginning. but you need to stick with it and it happens.

what happened to medium scale? the players are too lazy to make it a thing anymore. All the enthusiastic launch raid leaders have quit. all thats left are the followers that are kinda leading because no one else will. It's a lot of work and you have to put in elbow grease for it to happen.

With that being said: There is a medium scale DC presence on Shor Mon-Thurs 7:30PM - 10:30PM EST. Dont show up at 10 o'clock then complain no one was around. If you want to GvG feel free to message m in game, we can work out anything you want. This isnt a challenge. Im not saying we're going to whoop up on ya. Im saying, if youd rather just fight another guild, for fun, away from objectives, I am open to that.

We are also looking for smaller fights that don’t always lead to the ball zerg. If that means playing in shor we might have to do just that. Our one issue with shor is ep isn’t generally 2 bar vs 1 bar ad Dc. And we don’t enjoy playing on the dominant faction so we head to vivec where we can put ourselves between both enemy factions and away from ours.

If more ad and Dc guilds show up so will animosity.

By the way if requiem is interested in small group pvp you should join the gvg discord with your group. We are expanding the groups that are already in there and trying to get some gvg pvp consistently running. Fun fights with a zero toxicity policy.

I’ll send you a link so you can invite you even group.

Anazasi wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

No the 12 to 16 still exists. I prefer it but when my 16 man group draws in a 48+ players because they are tired of wiping to us we had to increase size. If DC and EP would learn how not to stack up and actually PVP without overwhelming numbers the zerg race would have never occurred. Please do not say take your group to some other place on the map and make a fight because i think you all know what happens then as well. DC and EP have no desire to fight medium sized coordinated. Even Dracarys has went from 16 to full 24. They run around casting 4 destro's now at a time. I think someone is a little afraid of the destro nerf that is inbound. Escalation is the end result of loss. To prove my point, last night I had my group hiding inside nikel waiting to jump on a group that was sieging. They got in, took the back flag and was on the front flag. I wanted to let it flip so we could get a double tick as the wall was being repaired. But they found us too early and we had to wipe them. The tell I got was from the DC player was "nice zerg 8v40". I had a group of 20 and no one else was at the outpost. Players exaggerate numbers because they simply can't count. I think it's a male trait honestly, everything seems larger than it actually is.

Dracarys isn't playing 24 ppl. We had a max of 17 (had 2 trials) in group last night although most of the night we were 15-16.
We also play regularly play 8-14 as well as people in guild small scaling.

At the end of raid last night I was 596:0 k:d

It's completely wrong to say that to deal with more numbers you need more players.
You need more focus and teamwork and to build for different situations.

As a leader I call for the number of destro's I think is required and players in my group use their judgement whether to use them. We are using more destro's on you when your group is bigger / you have more pugs around you.

Earthgore as said at the time was a really bad idea. I actually have no clue why ZOS added it. But as predicted before the patch we don't use it on all chars. Actually we only have like 4-5 I think (depends who's online)

As a guild we have never had more than 18 in group and I think this would be for maybe 6h out of the hundreds of hours playing as a guild we have run. (Ts even only has 20 slots)

I think the fact that you might have more running along with you instead of in group with you might be the distinction here. I'm not perfect on estimating a group size nor is anyone else probably but the numbers that gravitate towards your group and the numbers that gravitate towards my group are probably less important. The worst part is when you chase my group around even when we purposely break and head to other locations. Don't get me wrong, I'm flattered that we offer good fights but, seriously we are not now nor will we be on your level of meta or group play. And when we get a win against Dracarys it's not because of better builds or meta's it's because you made a tactical error and we capitalized on it. Our group is comprised of a solid diverse mix of casual players looking to simply have fun. The fact that we are able to run against you all as often as we do is the testament of ESO "fun" factor and my ability to hold the group and guild together as long as I have. It's not easy nor is it pleasurable anymore. If I had 16 players of the same caliber as Dracarys, where I don't have to nightly remind everyone the mechanics of PVP, or play mother hen, or if they simply stayed on crown and did what needed to be done as a group the outcomes would be extremely different. I'm not saying i hate my group, In fact it's the exact opposite. I have over the last 3 years made some remarkable friends and have accepted that my nature of constantly teaching and evaluating performance has probably made DK one of the more stable guilds without DRAMA. So while AD has the ability to match your meta and style of play, if that community decided to pull together and do so; which they won't because they actually despise the meta you play. The moral i suppose is this. I will always admire and respect you guys. Not because of your meta but because of the caliber of players you have collected. I do not know of any NA PC group that can match your level of play. You deserve a lot of credit and respect on that achievement alone. But get drunk more often, so you make more mistakes that I can take advantage of.

Skilled because they can destro flood the area. In that regards, sure, no one can compete with their “skill”. Break it down where they don’t have 16 with stacked destro vd’s and they would be broken.

More skillful than the average pug, I’ll give you that. Skillful enough to hold their own in a small scale group vs another organized group? Debatable.

I’d challenge any group to a gvg.

We also are starting a gvg discord for the many groups already in it and for whoever shows any interest in those fights. 2-5 people.

Hit me up if you want a link

I can't speak for the rest of my guild. Many of them are fantastic small scale players. But to me this has no relevance. You're right skill is absolutely a contextual term.

I have played a healer for the 3 years I have been playing this game and loved every minute of it. Always in large scale pvp. So when you come to my door preaching a 4v4 to prove your sick small scale skillzzz I will respond with the same response I give a Bible basher at my door preaching something I have no interest in or has no relevance to me By staring at you awkwardly until you feel uncomfortable and leave.

But don't come in here claiming supremacy over a group of people who have dedicated themselves to raiding while you have a wealth of experience in 4v4 style gameplay? Like what do you think that proves?

As an experienced healer I have no doubt someone as good as kodi would beat me in a duel. But it has no contextual relevance. I believe Conner mcgreggor recently suffered the same fate.

Besides. Isn't battle grounds for 4v4s?

Crown · October 2017

Vilestride wrote: »

Besides. Isn't battle grounds for 4v4s?

Battlegrounds doesn't let them feed their egos, as there's nobody to watch them take out masses of new / low-CP players and congratulate them in zone.. They don't want "small scale PvP", they want "PvP where they won't lose due to opponents having more players than they do".

Have you ever seen a small group or streamer complain that they were able to run over 20 opponents one after the other in the same area?

Have you ever seen a small group or stream complain that they were taken out by 20 opponents in the same area who focused fire?

Don't get me wrong, battlegrounds are great - can be a lot of fun in a pre-made where you're not stuck with someone who is completely clueless about PvP.. but they don't serve the purpose that many of the solo/small scale PvP players were looking for.

Vilestride · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Besides. Isn't battle grounds for 4v4s?

Battlegrounds doesn't let them feed their egos, as there's nobody to watch them take out masses of new / low-CP players and congratulate them in zone.. They don't want "small scale PvP", they want "PvP where they won't lose due to opponents having more players than they do".

Have you ever seen a small group or streamer complain that they were able to run over 20 opponents one after the other in the same area?

Have you ever seen a small group or stream complain that they were taken out by 20 opponents in the same area who focused fire?

Don't get me wrong, battlegrounds are great - can be a lot of fun in a pre-made where you're not stuck with someone who is completely clueless about PvP.. but they don't serve the purpose that many of the solo/small scale PvP players were looking for.

I was just trying to playfully rub in the fact that BGs were meant to be a small scales wet dream but instead they're a huge flop. But let's go with what you said.

CyrusArya · October 2017

Vilestride wrote: »

I was just trying to playfully rub in the fact that BGs were meant to be a small scales wet dream but instead they're a huge flop. But let's go with what you said.

According to who? Small scale players or you? BGs are something that was heavily requested, and once delivered, provide a lot of fun occasionally and another context for PvP. Ive had some good times in BGs and am glad they exist.

But make no mistake. Small scalers love cyrodiil for the same exact reason that any one else does: the thrill of unpredictable and dynamic open world PvP.

Recremen · October 2017

We're all still here but we don't all run every night. That's how you burn out and leave the game. Saturdays are still pretty big and you're likely to see all the cool kids come out then.

Vilestride · October 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I was just trying to playfully rub in the fact that BGs were meant to be a small scales wet dream but instead they're a huge flop. But let's go with what you said.

According to who? Small scale players or you? BGs are something that was heavily requested, and once delivered, provide a lot of fun occasionally and another context for PvP. Ive had some good times in BGs and am glad they exist.

But make no mistake. Small scalers love cyrodiil for the same exact reason that any one else does: the thrill of unpredictable and dynamic open world PvP.

Your right. BGs are 100% the small scale experience small scale players were hoping for. More well delivered content from zenimax I hope you thanked them accordingly. I am glad you are enjoying them.

FireCowCommando · October 2017

I quit about 2 years ago but ive checked the forums a few times a year to see the direction and state of the game. I am amazed theres players who have stuck with the state of evolution of the game. I feel bad for those of you still here commited to a game that still continues to struggle to obtain a stable game platform across the gaming systems it has sold itself on.

I also transferred from PC NA to PS4 NA, and i regret to inform anyone still holding out hope for better days that every single player that ive kept in contact with from my ESO experience has adamantly expressed they will never consider playing this game again.

I hope you all still keep enjoying ESO.

FENGRUSH · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Besides. Isn't battle grounds for 4v4s?

Battlegrounds doesn't let them feed their egos, as there's nobody to watch them take out masses of new / low-CP players and congratulate them in zone.. They don't want "small scale PvP", they want "PvP where they won't lose due to opponents having more players than they do".

Have you ever seen a small group or streamer complain that they were able to run over 20 opponents one after the other in the same area?

Have you ever seen a small group or stream complain that they were taken out by 20 opponents in the same area who focused fire?

Don't get me wrong, battlegrounds are great - can be a lot of fun in a pre-made where you're not stuck with someone who is completely clueless about PvP.. but they don't serve the purpose that many of the solo/small scale PvP players were looking for.

Hey guys were doing capture the relic - whos ready for some quality PvP gameplay.