What Happened to Medium Scale PvP?

Dutchessx

Very simple question. What happened to medium scale pvp on NA/PC? You hear a lot from the small scale pvp'ers who like to solo or run in groups of 8 or less and we all have ran into the 24+ man raids, and the faction stacks. People seemed focused on these 2 types of pvp. What about the people who like to play mid-scale? What happened to the organized coordinated serious pvp guilds out there? It seems the game has forgotten those of us who enjoy that play style have ever existed.

Thelon

OdinForge

Wrobel.

Rohamad_Ali

OdinForge wrote: »

Wrobel.

^

Vilestride

It's not as prominent as it was in the past but it's still out there if you look for it.

Thelon

Vilestride wrote: »

It's not as prominent as it was in the past but it's still out there if you look for it.

lol keep telling yourself that friend

Rohamad_Ali

While Wrobel's recent balance changes are at the root , it is a larger issue . Offence and sustaine was toned way down and this makes it more difficult for smaller groups to be effective against larger groups . Now healing and resistances are stronger then offence . The pendulum need to swing back a little in favor of damage I believe . Not too heavy but enough to address large groups of Templar healers and Wardens .

The second part of the puzzle is there are a lot of medium sized PVP guilds gone for what ever reasons . I imagine some are just tired of constant change and others realizing the new meta renders them less effective .

Anrose

Are you playing on Vivec? There are a ton of groups out there playing 10-14 all the time. Most of them cap their groups at 16, but the pugs that follow make it look like a full raid.

EP has the most of them, from what I remember. DC has a few out there. And AD has maybe a handful spread out over the whole day.

I'd venture to say medium scale PvP is the most prominent of any sort you'll find. It's just hard to differentiate a medium scale group from the hoarse because of the tag along pugs.

Rohamad_Ali

Anrose wrote: »

Are you playing on Vivec? There are a ton of groups out there playing 10-14 all the time. Most of them cap their groups at 16, but the pugs that follow make it look like a full raid.

EP has the most of them, from what I remember. DC has a few out there. And AD has maybe a handful spread out over the whole day.

I'd venture to say medium scale PvP is the most prominent of any sort you'll find. It's just hard to differentiate a medium scale group from the hoarse because of the tag along pugs.

I always thought medium scale was 4-8 players in a group . 10-14 considered a raid and anything over 14 a Zerg .

zyk

I haven't been able to play much lately, but when I was last active regularly more than a week ago, there were a lot of small and medium groups running.

I think a growing problem is Earthgore. It's pretty OP for large groups and makes it much more difficult for smaller groups and randoms to take them down. At first I only noticed it with Drac, but when I played briefly a couple of days ago, I saw it everywhere.

@ZOS_Wrobel I've read you want to discourage large blobs, but Earthgore is a set that makes the good ones nearly invincible.

Kram8ion

Tankles

Vilestride

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

While Wrobel's recent balance changes are at the root , it is a larger issue . Offence and sustaine was toned way down and this makes it more difficult for smaller groups to be effective against larger groups . Now healing and resistances are stronger then offence . The pendulum need to swing back a little in favor of damage I believe . Not too heavy but enough to address large groups of Templar healers and Wardens .

The second part of the puzzle is there are a lot of medium sized PVP guilds gone for what ever reasons . I imagine some are just tired of constant change and others realizing the new meta renders them less effective .

While is agree with you entirely, it''s funny to read this then skip over to any other thread and read people complain about destro ult being too strong and damage being too easy for these sized groups as well.

Sanct16

What would you even consider medium scale?

idk

Group size depends on the group, what they want. It is not really a forum issue, but more a guild issue or PvP raid leader issue.

Rohamad_Ali

Vilestride wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

While Wrobel's recent balance changes are at the root , it is a larger issue . Offence and sustaine was toned way down and this makes it more difficult for smaller groups to be effective against larger groups . Now healing and resistances are stronger then offence . The pendulum need to swing back a little in favor of damage I believe . Not too heavy but enough to address large groups of Templar healers and Wardens .

The second part of the puzzle is there are a lot of medium sized PVP guilds gone for what ever reasons . I imagine some are just tired of constant change and others realizing the new meta renders them less effective .

While is agree with you entirely, it''s funny to read this then skip over to any other thread and read people complain about destro ult being too strong and damage being too easy for these sized groups as well.

Yeah or complaining about vicious death . Once they nerf all the offense it will just be like to exhausted boxers hugging each other through the 9th round .

gabriebe

Earthgore is a welcome counter to the bombgroups. I mean, yeah it's fun to mow down a 15-20 people group with 4 people running destro ults, proxy dets and VD but a healing fail-safe was overdue against these tactics.

zyk

gabriebe wrote: »

Earthgore is a welcome counter to the bombgroups. I mean, yeah it's fun to mow down a 15-20 people group with 4 people running destro ults, proxy dets and VD but a healing fail-safe was overdue against these tactics.

It's best utilized by bomb groups.

gabriebe

Who themselves need a counter to other bomb groups. Good raids are going to have a bigger front line and a smaller bomb group in the back. Solo bombers... were just something that probably shouldn't be happening in the first place. I was emp on one at some point and while I enjoyed the *** out of killing 15-20 people solo (even did so a few times without the emp bonuses), I'm well aware that it isn't the most healthy or balanced thing in the game.

IxSTALKERxI

I think a lot of guilds / groups / leads that are capable of running medium scale either quit or take breaks from the game from time to time. I haven't been playing myself for awhile - I've started logging in here and there for 10 minutes just to look at the state of things.

Anazasi

No the 12 to 16 still exists. I prefer it but when my 16 man group draws in a 48+ players because they are tired of wiping to us we had to increase size. If DC and EP would learn how not to stack up and actually PVP without overwhelming numbers the zerg race would have never occurred. Please do not say take your group to some other place on the map and make a fight because i think you all know what happens then as well. DC and EP have no desire to fight medium sized coordinated. Even Dracarys has went from 16 to full 24. They run around casting 4 destro's now at a time. I think someone is a little afraid of the destro nerf that is inbound. Escalation is the end result of loss. To prove my point, last night I had my group hiding inside nikel waiting to jump on a group that was sieging. They got in, took the back flag and was on the front flag. I wanted to let it flip so we could get a double tick as the wall was being repaired. But they found us too early and we had to wipe them. The tell I got was from the DC player was "nice zerg 8v40". I had a group of 20 and no one else was at the outpost. Players exaggerate numbers because they simply can't count. I think it's a male trait honestly, everything seems larger than it actually is.

IxSTALKERxI

I personally consider medium scale around 6-11. You're not small scale but at the same time you can't fight an entire enemy faction in large scale either.

Large scale is 12-24 as play style / builds are generally the same and are designed for large scale fights. Those that do large scale with only 12-16 people are still doing large scale, but are just doing it with less people.

Rickter

Its on Shor.

lol it may seem like im trolling but i mean, I keep saying this.

I run Requiem. I usually have between 7-14 usually more around 10. That's DC. pretty much it for DC.

EP has Dreadlords but honestly idk where theyve been for the last two weeks. EP has no one. recently we've seen <Generations of Honor> and <Raging Potatoes> both fielding 6-10 each. AD has <DEAD WAIT> a 6 man group. and well. thats it besides whoever else comes on the server whenever they feel like it.

Ive had 6v5 and 6v6 quite a few times at this point with Dead Wait. Ive gone 14 v 20 against Dreadlords, this is a nightly occurrence on Shor.

Thats medium scale. right? of course it is. Its right there. I'll tell you what happened to medium scale:

No it was not Wrobel. No it was not balance changes - its the players. always had been. Medium scale is up to YOU - its a META thats the DEFINITION of meta - something you decide as players not determined by the developers. Raid leaders give up. they quit not because theyre "frustrated with the game" lets be real - they burned out. Or did you think you could run 7 nights a week for 5 hours or more and keep that up for 3 years?

The legends are gone. stop talking about them. They only lurk the forums. You need to look to the future if you want this game or the glory days to return.

start capping your group size. (if it means that much to you). Stop force feeding onto vivec. Accept that you will have days where pvp isnt going to be that great and some days you will have the pvp in your life and STICK WITH IT.

Thats what I did. I went onto Shor after having the time of my life on Azura's Star. We all know what Sotha was like and i pride myself as one of the first DC guilds to not support the shenanigans and migrate to Amalexia. Almalexia was DOOMED and converted to Shor. I was tired of moving server to server and became determined to stick with it through thick and thin and now I run 10-ish mans mon-thurs.

Ya'll need to be prepared to build. its like a start up company. its going to be tough in the beginning. but you need to stick with it and it happens.

what happened to medium scale? the players are too lazy to make it a thing anymore. All the enthusiastic launch raid leaders have quit. all thats left are the followers that are kinda leading because no one else will. It's a lot of work and you have to put in elbow grease for it to happen.

With that being said: There is a medium scale DC presence on Shor Mon-Thurs 7:30PM - 10:30PM EST. Dont show up at 10 o'clock then complain no one was around. If you want to GvG feel free to message m in game, we can work out anything you want. This isnt a challenge. Im not saying we're going to whoop up on ya. Im saying, if youd rather just fight another guild, for fun, away from objectives, I am open to that.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Anazasi wrote: »

No the 12 to 16 still exists. I prefer it but when my 16 man group draws in a 48+ players because they are tired of wiping to us we had to increase size. If DC and EP would learn how not to stack up and actually PVP without overwhelming numbers the zerg race would have never occurred. Please do not say take your group to some other place on the map and make a fight because i think you all know what happens then as well. DC and EP have no desire to fight medium sized coordinated. Even Dracarys has went from 16 to full 24. They run around casting 4 destro's now at a time. I think someone is a little afraid of the destro nerf that is inbound. Escalation is the end result of loss. To prove my point, last night I had my group hiding inside nikel waiting to jump on a group that was sieging. They got in, took the back flag and was on the front flag. I wanted to let it flip so we could get a double tick as the wall was being repaired. But they found us too early and we had to wipe them. The tell I got was from the DC player was "nice zerg 8v40". I had a group of 20 and no one else was at the outpost. Players exaggerate numbers because they simply can't count. I think it's a male trait honestly, everything seems larger than it actually is.

Dracarys isn't playing 24 ppl. We had a max of 17 (had 2 trials) in group last night although most of the night we were 15-16.
We also play regularly play 8-14 as well as people in guild small scaling.

At the end of raid last night I was 596:0 k:d

It's completely wrong to say that to deal with more numbers you need more players.
You need more focus and teamwork and to build for different situations.

As a leader I call for the number of destro's I think is required and players in my group use their judgement whether to use them. We are using more destro's on you when your group is bigger / you have more pugs around you.

Earthgore as said at the time was a really bad idea. I actually have no clue why ZOS added it. But as predicted before the patch we don't use it on all chars. Actually we only have like 4-5 I think (depends who's online)


As a guild we have never had more than 18 in group and I think this would be for maybe 6h out of the hundreds of hours playing as a guild we have run. (Ts even only has 20 slots)

pzschrek

AM I FACING A ZERG? This equation will answer it:

Set N = (YourGroupSize)

IF count(Enemy) > N+1 THEN (Enemy) = ZERG


There's some medium scale groups in vivec. The ones I know of have pretty defined builds that aren't that useful on their own but devastating in a group of like 12. Caveat is you must run well synergized tanky builds if you run in there with like 12 people to avoid getting zerg-rolled.

Anazasi

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I personally consider medium scale around 6-11. You're not small scale but at the same time you can't fight an entire enemy faction in large scale either.

Large scale is 12-24 as play style / builds are generally the same and are designed for large scale fights. Those that do large scale with only 12-16 people are still doing large scale, but are just doing it with less people.

Oh you mean battlegrounds........I see

Vincelex

Can confirm 4 destros on recap= killed by 24 man

Anazasi

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

No the 12 to 16 still exists. I prefer it but when my 16 man group draws in a 48+ players because they are tired of wiping to us we had to increase size. If DC and EP would learn how not to stack up and actually PVP without overwhelming numbers the zerg race would have never occurred. Please do not say take your group to some other place on the map and make a fight because i think you all know what happens then as well. DC and EP have no desire to fight medium sized coordinated. Even Dracarys has went from 16 to full 24. They run around casting 4 destro's now at a time. I think someone is a little afraid of the destro nerf that is inbound. Escalation is the end result of loss. To prove my point, last night I had my group hiding inside nikel waiting to jump on a group that was sieging. They got in, took the back flag and was on the front flag. I wanted to let it flip so we could get a double tick as the wall was being repaired. But they found us too early and we had to wipe them. The tell I got was from the DC player was "nice zerg 8v40". I had a group of 20 and no one else was at the outpost. Players exaggerate numbers because they simply can't count. I think it's a male trait honestly, everything seems larger than it actually is.

Dracarys isn't playing 24 ppl. We had a max of 17 (had 2 trials) in group last night although most of the night we were 15-16.
We also play regularly play 8-14 as well as people in guild small scaling.

At the end of raid last night I was 596:0 k:d

It's completely wrong to say that to deal with more numbers you need more players.
You need more focus and teamwork and to build for different situations.

As a leader I call for the number of destro's I think is required and players in my group use their judgement whether to use them. We are using more destro's on you when your group is bigger / you have more pugs around you.

Earthgore as said at the time was a really bad idea. I actually have no clue why ZOS added it. But as predicted before the patch we don't use it on all chars. Actually we only have like 4-5 I think (depends who's online)


As a guild we have never had more than 18 in group and I think this would be for maybe 6h out of the hundreds of hours playing as a guild we have run. (Ts even only has 20 slots)

I think the fact that you might have more running along with you instead of in group with you might be the distinction here. I'm not perfect on estimating a group size nor is anyone else probably but the numbers that gravitate towards your group and the numbers that gravitate towards my group are probably less important. The worst part is when you chase my group around even when we purposely break and head to other locations. Don't get me wrong, I'm flattered that we offer good fights but, seriously we are not now nor will we be on your level of meta or group play. And when we get a win against Dracarys it's not because of better builds or meta's it's because you made a tactical error and we capitalized on it. Our group is comprised of a solid diverse mix of casual players looking to simply have fun. The fact that we are able to run against you all as often as we do is the testament of ESO "fun" factor and my ability to hold the group and guild together as long as I have. It's not easy nor is it pleasurable anymore. If I had 16 players of the same caliber as Dracarys, where I don't have to nightly remind everyone the mechanics of PVP, or play mother hen, or if they simply stayed on crown and did what needed to be done as a group the outcomes would be extremely different. I'm not saying i hate my group, In fact it's the exact opposite. I have over the last 3 years made some remarkable friends and have accepted that my nature of constantly teaching and evaluating performance has probably made DK one of the more stable guilds without DRAMA. So while AD has the ability to match your meta and style of play, if that community decided to pull together and do so; which they won't because they actually despise the meta you play. The moral i suppose is this. I will always admire and respect you guys. Not because of your meta but because of the caliber of players you have collected. I do not know of any NA PC group that can match your level of play. You deserve a lot of credit and respect on that achievement alone. But get drunk more often, so you make more mistakes that I can take advantage of.

Rainingblood

EP Hit Squad generally runs 4 to 10 peeps. On rare occasions we get more than that, but 99% of the time we're running a small-to-medium group.

Mazbt

Lots of medium scale groups on vivec. Especially on EP. The guy above mentions one of them I see quite often.

Dutchessx

For me medium scale is 10 - 14-ish people in raid with coordinated ultis. running group skills, and tatics. Small scale to me is 2-8ish. As I run DR groups most of the other groups I run into are faction stacks or small man groups. I see very few other medium scale groups. We have been guesting other campaigns lately besides Sotha. Shor has too many EP in it already for a group our size. In Vivec I get connection issues due to the lag on the busy nights. I have lead raids regularly and I just aren't seeing other groups like us out there regularly anymore.

the_broo11

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I think a lot of guilds / groups / leads that are capable of running medium scale either quit or take breaks from the game from time to time. I haven't been playing myself for awhile - I've started logging in here and there for 10 minutes just to look at the state of things.

This^. I used to run 4-8 man groups nearly every day (xbox na) up till 3ish months ago, but the majority of the people in my guild have gone on break or moved on entirely.

Most people began to give up after experiencing DLC after DLC of no change to the lag, and lack of any real incentive to endure it.

The real nail in the coffin was when BGs was released. This was most of our last hope at a low-lag, non-zerg pvp environment. But ZOS presented us with broken queues and a leaderboard that reflected nothing of what we had hoped.