Nestor wrote: »

Something tells me you have not tried to find a guild yet. Most guilds are not full of hardcore lets clear this as fast as possible type of players. The ones that are, are very clear about that upfront, avoid them. Find a nice guild that has people you like to hang out with and finding groups does not take that long. Or, you can sit on the sidelines and complain.

As a "community ambassador", I'd expect you to have an understanding for the pretense of a dungeon group finder. Its limitations or drawbacks, whether that be a design flaw or community makeup, should not be my problem. It's on ZOS to ensure that the system functions as it should and waiting hours upon hours to find a random group for a normal dungeon is not functional by any stretch of the imagination. I should not feel obligated to find a guild to do something the dungeon finder was designed to do for me: find a dungeon group.

I know this seems combative and snarky but when you patronize me with "sit on the sidelines and complain", you're going to get a likeminded response.

OrbitStorm wrote: »

As a "community ambassador", I'd expect you to have an understanding for the pretense of a dungeon group finder. Its limitations or drawbacks, whether that be a design flaw or community makeup, should not be my problem. It's on ZOS to ensure that the system functions as it should and waiting hours upon hours to find a random group for a normal dungeon is not functional by any stretch of the imagination. I should not feel obligated to find a guild to do something the dungeon finder was designed to do for me: find a dungeon group.

I know this seems combative and snarky but when you patronize me with "sit on the sidelines and complain", you're going to get a likeminded response.

So, you want me to remove half the DPS players from the game so the dungeon finder has a better chance of giving you a dungeon? Sorry, there is nothing ZOS can do about the population and the roles that people choose to play. You already know the answer to that, you said it your self, become a Healer or Tank. I have sat in the que myself on my DPS Alts, sometimes for hours, although I remove myself typically after 15 minutes. I don't come on the boards and complain about it, because I know the answer, the game is flooded with players who only want to do DPS. So, set your self apart and learn a new role, besides, Tanking and Healing are a lot more fun than DPS.

You don't want to find a guild or put any effort into finding a dungeon to run other than clicking a couple of buttons and having magic happen. Well, that is not going to eliminate the issue, 90% of the players being DPS. Suggest a way to fix this if you know the answer. ZOS, and any game developer with group content and roles has the same problem, more DPS than they need, and less Tanks and Heals than they want.

Sugar coating the answer does not change the answer. You want the dungeon finder to work for you, learn a role the dungeon finder needs. You want to do DPS, then find alternatives to forming a group, which has been spelled out for you. I am sorry you don't like the answer that says put some effort into it.

disintegr8 wrote: »

Group finder performs a function that no longer meets the needs a lot of the time and as it is the only dungeon grouping tool we have, everyone has to use it regardless of why they want to run the dungeon.

A CP660 player farming for gear or wanting to quickly complete the Undaunted daily is not really compatible with a newer player at level 23 who is running a dungeon for the first time, maybe still learning their role and wanting to learn the dungeon mechanics, loot chests and find heavy sacks.

The CP660 might do insane damage and think the level 23 player would just be grateful for the 'carry' whereas the level 23 player doesn't get the chance to do anything or learn anything. If the level 23 is doing the dungeon quest, they struggle to talk to NPC's because people are racing ahead and sometimes don't even finish the quest because everyone leaves the group.

Each has a right to be there, each has the right to use group finder and neither is any more or less entitled to use group finder than the other. Each can argue that the other should find a guild or get their own group but neither has more right to use group finder than the other.

Yes, you bring forth of some very relevant points here, the dungeon finder could do with an overhaul to implement some more options to specify what group type one might prefer like you suggest here. It shouldn't exclude anyone, just seek to group like minded individuals first.

OrbitStorm wrote: »

No, no other MMO is quite as hung up on awful queues as ESO is. Closest comparison would be WoW and their queues don't last half a day for DPS, sorry to inform you.

This could have to do with Wows still high million population across all same-type realms and that their group finder does cross realm grouping. Correct me if Im wrong, but ESO is restricted to the EU megaserver grouping only with EU megaserver players; same with the US server, right? There may simply just be too few ESO players in ESO on each server to support a consistent experience unless you regroup as healer or tank, especially for normal dungeons?

Here's an idea: timewalking -- Blizzard's answer to clogged or empty queues in early-game.

EDIT: timewalking, yes that is an awesome idea. For some reason I completely forgot about that one. Eso already does alot of "going back in time" stuff (often through watching/talking to ghostly figures) so I don't see why a similar feature for ESO could not be awesome and work.

OrbitStorm wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

So, you want me to remove half the DPS players from the game so the dungeon finder has a better chance of giving you a dungeon? Sorry, there is nothing ZOS can do about the population and the roles that people choose to play. You already know the answer to that, you said it your self, become a Healer or Tank. I have sat in the que myself on my DPS Alts, sometimes for hours, although I remove myself typically after 15 minutes. I don't come on the boards and complain about it, because I know the answer, the game is flooded with players who only want to do DPS. So, set your self apart and learn a new role, besides, Tanking and Healing are a lot more fun than DPS.

You don't want to find a guild or put any effort into finding a dungeon to run other than clicking a couple of buttons and having magic happen. Well, that is not going to eliminate the issue, 90% of the players being DPS. Suggest a way to fix this if you know the answer. ZOS, and any game developer with group content and roles has the same problem, more DPS than they need, and less Tanks and Heals than they want.

Sugar coating the answer does not change the answer. You want the dungeon finder to work for you, learn a role the dungeon finder needs. You want to do DPS, then find alternatives to forming a group, which has been spelled out for you. I am sorry you don't like the answer that says put some effort into it.

I feel like you're just floating numbers out there to sound more informed than you really are. Do you have any metrics that substantiate this "90%" claim? Doubtful.

Honestly, even if it isn't 90%, I have a hard time believing that you truly think the number of Healers, Tanks, and DDs in queues are equal. Most people play DDs. That is fairly universal. Simple math will inform you that a queue for a DD will always take longer than a queue for a tank or healer. There isn't anything ZOS can do about that. Again simple math. If you have 10 tanks, 10 healers, and 60 DDs in a queue, 40 DD's will be waiting around for a group and if any of the group finder formed groups decide to stick together and finish pledges or farm a dungeon, you now have 1 less tank and 1 less healer added to the queue for the overwhelming amount of DDs to pair with.

OrbitStorm wrote: »

There are no official numbers for ESO, that I'm aware of, but it's evident that the reason WoW continues to have sustained success is because Blizzard is second to none. ZOS just doesn't appear to give a damn if they're even on the list.

True, it's amazing that wow is still alive and kicking after all this time. I love ESO, it does alot of stuff that makes it unique and interesting; but it's true that ZoS seems oblivious to better the game in some aspects.

OrbitStorm wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Honestly, even if it isn't 90%, I have a hard time believing that you truly think the number of Healers, Tanks, and DDs in queues are equal. Most people play DDs. That is fairly universal. Simple math will inform you that a queue for a DD will always take longer than a queue for a tank or healer. There isn't anything ZOS can do about that. Again simple math. If you have 10 tanks, 10 healers, and 60 DDs in a queue, 40 DD's will be waiting around for a group and if any of the group finder formed groups decide to stick together and finish pledges or farm a dungeon, you now have 1 less tank and 1 less healer added to the queue for the overwhelming amount of DDs to pair with.

I haven't disagreed that there is an imbalance, I just don't agree that it's as disastrous as "90%" or beyond resolution.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were that bad. How many tanks or healer avoid the grouping tool altogether because of getting paired with awful dds or getting matched to a broken group that couldn't keep their original tank or healer. If you think not getting a group is bad, try not being able to complete a normal random dungeon on a tank because the dps in your group can't do enough to kill anything.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

This giving up attitude is a bit sad; it seems to reflect the stance that ZoS seems to be taking Orbitstorm gave some examples on how it could be improved, mentioning the timewalking feature from WoW. Im sure they could also implement other interesting features and enhancements to dungeoneering and grouping. But it seems they are unwilling to do so, perhaps with the same perspective as you that "can't do anything about it".

Timewalking just scales everyone to the same level so lower level players can run with higher levels. This is not leveled game, so that does not apply here. Besides, being a scaled game, we all get to play together anyway. Still will not help with the lack of Tanks and Healers in this game as compared to DPS.

Unless ZOS changes the fundamental combat in this game, most everyone is going to prefer DPS as a role. That is the reason the Dungeon Finder has issues getting a group formed.

Until then, if that happens, the two suggestions to learn how to Heal or Tank or find a guild or a group of friends to run dungeons with are your best alternatives.

OrbitStorm wrote: »

if ZOS gives high-level players an incentive to participate in normal dungeons, the pool of available players for random queues would grow exponentially.

There is 100K of Exp given to people who do Random Normals, which is the same 100K as Random Vets. The same Rewards email is sent with the same 3 types of items, all purple to anyone who runs a random with a normal or vet. That is all I run with my Alts. So the incentive is there and it's working. ZOS could double rewards in the dungeon, or give Purple jewelry drops. But is that the right answer, as messing with Loot can have other issues. Who knows.

Still does not help the population imbalance with regards to DDs and Healers/Tanks, the underlying core problem with the Dungeon Finder. I have not seen a solution on that. From anyone, that is why I was asking you.

However it sounds like they are thinking about doing something with Class skills to create a Tank, Damage and Heal tree. Not sure about that, I like those things peppered about the Classes so I can customize my build. If they get rid of the Role requirement as everyone can do each role then it could work to make groups. But, roles are still roles, and DPS should be squishy to an extent and Tanks do their thing while healer keeps people alive. Then dungeons are fun. 4 DPSing a dungeon is boring.

Group finder is not what is broken, as I get a group in a minute or less for my Tank and about a minute for Healing. Most evenings/weekends, I get a group in 5 to 10 minutes or so for my DPS. Except mornings, those tend to be slow for DPS. So, groups are being formed, sometimes, as people decline. There are many reasons for that happening.

Its not the Group Finder, its the game, at least dungeon content. My suggestion is make the mechanics demand the 3 roles be there doing their role. I don't know if that is the right answer either. Will less run them because they are harder?

ZOS needs to change the game to encourage people to Tank and Heal, then the group finder will have something to work. That is the real issue, and the thing that really needs to be discussed. Oh, and the group finder, needs some changes. Like a No DLC Option for starts, and an option to not be a replacement for a lost member of a group mid dungeon.

And, its toeing, not towing. I am not pulling anything any where.

Nestor wrote: »

You mean the 100K of Exp given to people who do Random Normals, which is the same 100K as Random Vets? The same Rewards email is sent with the same 3 types of items, all purple to anyone who runs a random with a normal or vet. That is all I run with my Alts. So the incentive is there and it's working. Or, should ZOS double the rewards given to Vets who run Non Vet dungeons?

Yes, ZOS should consider weighting rewards toward Veteran players for running random normals given that there clearly aren't that many new players running said random normals. Complacency breeds mediocrity.

Nestor wrote: »

And, its toeing, not towing. I am not pulling anything any where.

I find it odd that someone in your position would devolve into petty nitpicking of typos when the majority of your responses have been laden with run-ons, improper punctuation, and malapropism. How's that for stroking intellectual e-peens?

OrbitStorm wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

Let's be fair, Orbit. A primary reason for WoW's continued success is that the game will run even on a TRS-80 or Apple II. ESO, like some other MMO's, takes a much more powerful system to flow smoothly. WoW...again, the most base model comp will run it.

I beg to differ. This whole "WoW runs on a toaster" shtick is both ignorant and an excuse for lousy optimization.

Back to your original point, my wife has an old Toshiba laptop from 2010 that she clings to as a memento and it's entirely incapable of running WoW but reasonably capable of running the Java-based edition of Minecraft. A 2.2 GHz Dual Core processor, Radeon HD 4200 IGP, and 4 gigs of DDR2 system memory is the very definition of "toaster".

You need to lighten up, Orbit. Obviously I was exaggerating for effect when I said it could run on a TRS-80. It is a fact, however, that WoW will run a MUCH broader range of systems than other MMO's and this makes it accessible to a much broader audience. Back to the point of the thread and the DF queue taking so long for normal dungeons. There's no debating that there are many, many, many times more dps than tanks and healers and therefore the gargantuan wait times in queue if you're on a DD. I don't personally know what ZoS can do to change that as that is all player choice. Unless they take out the need for tanks and healers.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

OrbitStorm wrote: »

No, no other MMO is quite as hung up on awful queues as ESO is. Closest comparison would be WoW and their queues don't last half a day for DPS, sorry to inform you.

This could have to do with Wows still high million population across all same-type realms and that their group finder does cross realm grouping. Correct me if Im wrong, but ESO is restricted to the EU megaserver grouping only with EU megaserver players; same with the US server, right? There may simply just be too few ESO players in ESO on each server to support a consistent experience unless you regroup as healer or tank, especially for normal dungeons?

Here's an idea: timewalking -- Blizzard's answer to clogged or empty queues in early-game.

EDIT: timewalking, yes that is an awesome idea. For some reason I completely forgot about that one. Eso already does alot of "going back in time" stuff (often through watching/talking to ghostly figures) so I don't see why a similar feature for ESO could not be awesome and work.

Timewalking is not relevant in ESO because of scaling, lots of high cp players to normal dungeons, don't want to pug vet or do harder vet dungeons, farming gear, doing quest on alts wanting to do an quick random for xp without risking to get the harder vet dungeons.

WOW has two benefits first is 1 more DD in group second is that you can have two builds and switch between them making it easier to set up an healer or tank build without compromising your DD setup.
Probably also more long term players who has multiple alts and builds.