Can we fix Detect Pots?

Talcyndl · September 2017

Just a couple of other points

fred4 wrote: »

(1) Make sure combat text is enabled, ZOS own or possibly addons. Immediately put a DOT on the NB. If the NB enters cloak, the combat text will say "Miss" every 2 seconds and show you where the NB is, even if you can't see it.

I do this with the Warden flies. However, the "miss" text does not usually correspond with where the NB is - at least going to that area doesn't redetect the NB.

fred4 wrote: »

(4) The skill that no one uses: Consuming Trap. Available to all classes. Great sustain skill in Imperial City, and the DOT it places on NBs has a visual effect you'll still see, despite them cloaking. Little known, but quite broken.

Interesting.

fred4 wrote: »

(5) If you are a Nightblade yourself, you of course have Piercing Mark.

I've always thought it was silly that the best counter to the core NB skill is a NB only skill.

when I re-engage with the curse ticking on me.

fred4 wrote: »

(9) Wardens are just big bumbling powerhouses in PvP. You'll Scorch every 3 seconds and you'll catch out all manner of players in your Northern Storm. Players who would run from the destro ult, but who either underestimate or can't get away from that warden ult.

I've used storm ulti a few times, but it's a pretty big gamble to pop a (high cost) ulti when you're not really sure where the NB has run off to.

Talcyndl · September 2017

fred4 wrote: »

Err ... no. Make sure to level your Medicinal Use passive. You should get 15.7 seconds.

That is a 1/3 the duration of what they were originally.

fred4 · September 2017

So you're saying detect pots had 100% uptime? That would be totally OP, as it completely negates one of the, if not the most defining skill of nightblades. Lengthening the effect even a little could get you dangerously close to that happening, if potion cooldown reduction glyphs are ever fixed.

Aside: I know those glyphs sound like a big sacrifice, but reducing potion cooldown would affect many things, such as Immovability uptime, set bonus uptime (Clever Alchemist, Skooma Smuggler, others), Argonian passives, and greater sustain from more frequent potion use, meaning you could skimp on sustain elsewhere. It's certainly something I'd try.

By the way, you might use the Sentry set to extend the range of detect pots.

I carry both Immov / Detect / Mag and Immov / Crit / Mag potions, which I use equally.

Again, I am not suggesting you use the warden ult speculatively. You use it when the NB is already there, in your face. I think the best way to use Inner Light / Expert Hunter is the same. You'd have those on your front bar, for the crit, right? Use CC and use those skills conscientiously to prevent the NB from disengaging, esp. when their health is getting low. I know it's a PITA. This is very dependent on your build as well. If you have burst with CC, such as Dizzying -> Ulti -> Execute, that's probably enough to kill many NBs. Howeer, I ran a DW pressure build, and putting Evil Hunter in the rotation helped against those NBs who only used Cloak, and not the shade. Don't use that skill when the NB has cloaked. It's too late. Use it to prevent the NB from cloaking, before they attempt to do so.

rfennell_ESO · September 2017

Talcyndl wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that the initial design decision to avoid all cooldowns in favor of soft caps and resource pool limitations was generally a good one. But, the one huge downside (once the numerous broken NB skills were fixed) is that NBs have an in-combat stealth skill that can be cast at will. This skill (employed by even a semi-competent player) is an almost insurmountable advantage in small group and 1v1 situations. The most common (and reasonable) reaction in this case is to simply walk/run away.

There have been various counters to cloak over the years. But the most universal, detect pots, are now basically worthless.

(1) The range of detect pots seems to require you to be almost directly on top of the NB.

(2) Even once detected, the NB disappears again almost immediately.

(3) The uptime on the detect portion of the pots is incredibly short. And of course, using one puts you at a huge disadvantage because of the potion timer.

Can we get some buffs to detect pots please?

I'll just point out one thing that a lot of people forget or don't know...

Detection doesn't work on range alone.

You can detect nightblades in front of you from a more than reasonable distance. Less so in a side cone and even less when they are behind you.

Now if you are questioning what this means in this context, the detection is based on where your character is facing and not where you have the camera.

So, if you are basing your detection on camera view and not making an effort to change the direction you are facing... yes the detection range is somewhat small if the nightblade is not in front of you.

A for instance is when you have the camera out as max distance and rotate it in combat without actually turning yourself. You can test this by getting a nightblade to help you, you will see that they are quite detectable from a very large range as long as they are in front of your character, have them move around and you will see the decreasing distances that a detect pot will work.

Generally if you hit stealth and they eye is partially open and you use a detect pot and then turn 360 (not just with the camera) ((you need to face the 360 degrees with the front of your character)) a nightblade will nearly always be revealed.

Talcyndl · September 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

....Generally if you hit stealth and they eye is partially open and you use a detect pot and then turn 360 (not just with the camera) ((you need to face the 360 degrees with the front of your character)) a nightblade will nearly always be revealed.

Good info. Thanks.

xaraan · September 2017

Yeah, these pots are pretty useless. Should have a much greater range if you are going to use a potion cool down for a limited detection area.

Samadhi · September 2017

fred4 wrote: »

So you're saying detect pots had 100% uptime? That would be totally OP, as it completely negates one of the, if not the most defining skill of nightblades. Lengthening the effect even a little could get you dangerously close to that happening, if potion cooldown reduction glyphs are ever fixed.
....

Detect Potions could previously maintain 100% uptime,
but they were used so infrequently by players that Cloak was considered OP
There was even a good stretch where most people did not seem to know that Detect Potions could see through Cloak at all

My guess is that they reduced the length when anti-invisible poisons were added to game?
The potions were nerfed at some point in my absence, so not sure when

Currently pop a Detect Potion then use Mark Target

As a Nightblade main who extensively used Detect Potions to counter other Nightblades
do personally miss the 100% uptime
but it is not the end of the world

rfennell_ESO · September 2017

xaraan wrote: »

Yeah, these pots are pretty useless. Should have a much greater range if you are going to use a potion cool down for a limited detection area.

Furthering what I said earlier...

Stealth detection baseline is 20m front, 10 meter side, 5 meters back.

This is affected by stealth radius reductions from racials and medium armor.

So 7/7 medium is 35%, -3m for bosmer/khajiit, night mother's embrace -2m, night terror set -2m (not sure what else there is).

If you had all of that you get
F20m*.65=13m then -3m(b/k) 10m, 8m, 6m (max stealth reduction I know of).
S10m*.65=6.5m, 3.5m, 1.5m,-.5m
B5m*.65=3.25m, .5m, -1.5m, -3.5m

Detection potions adds 20 meters to detection range. (revealing flare also adds 20m to detection range)
F40m*.65=26m,23m,21m,19m
S30m*.65= 19.5m,16.5m,14.5m,12.5m
B25m*.65=16.3m,13.3m,11.3m,9.3m

Detection pot + sentry set (+50% detection range)
F60m*.65=39m(36m,34m,32m)
S45m*.65=29.3m(27m,25m,23m)
B32.5m*.65=21m(18m,16m,14m)

Detection pot + sentry set + magelight
F60m*.65=39m+15m=54m.
S45m*.65=29.3m+15m=44.3m
B32.5m*.65=21m+15m=36m

With magelight you just add 10m(15m w/sentry) to the final range.

Then you have two types of invisibility. Cloak and effect invisibilities.
Cloak sets stealth detection to 0. Effects (potion) is -30m.

so... cloak will not be revealed unless you are using detection of some sort.
F(0m+20m)*.65=13m then -3 (b/k) 10m, 8m, 6m
S(0m+20m)*.65=13m then -3 (b/k) 10m, 8m, 6m
B(0m+20m)*.65==13m then -3 (b/k) 10m, 8m, 6m

Effect invisibility is even better as it takes 30m off the final result, obviously putting detection radius into the negatives for everything except boosted (sentry set) detection pots.

Detection pot + sentry set + magelight vs invisibility pot
F60m*.65=39m+15m=54m-30m=24m(21m,19m, 17m)
S45m*.65=29.3m+15m=44.3m-30m=14.3m(11.3m, 9.3m, 7.3m)
B32.5m*.65=21m+15m=36m-30m=6m (3m,1m, -1m)

The culprit in this case is not nightblades, but invisibility pots.

Magelight, however will always reveal within 10m (15m w/sentry set). Even effect invisibility. It's also not affected by stealth reduction at all (hence why it always reveals in that range).

A lot of this was taken from http://theunholylegacy.enjin.com/mobile/forum/viewthread/m/29246682/id/24438130-dean-cat-understanding-catculations-stealth.

PS math might not all be right, but it's not going to be wrong by much.

PSS keep in mind that everything with *.65 is w/ 7 medium armor.

rfennell_ESO · September 2017

I'd have to do a spreadsheet to really do all the detection stuff justice...

Maybe I will if I'm up for it.

rfennell_ESO · September 2017

Detect pot vs Invisibility potion (no stealth reduction)
F40m-30m=10m
S30m-30m=0m
B25m-30m=-5m

Detect pot vs Invisibility potion (w/stealth reduction)
F40m*.65=26m(23m,21m,19m)-30m=-4m(-7m,-9m,-11m)
Side and back are all you can't see them with pot as well.

Anyone wearing 5 pieces of medium armor can not be detected with a detect pot when they use an invis pot.

rfennell_ESO · September 2017

ps anyone with better info, feel free to correct or add.