You should get around 32k on any class with VMA bow and good gear (does not have to be trial gear). You dont have to be in some maximum range to reach this either. Range damage advantage can be easily matched by using some short range class skill (like hurricane on sorc)
Stam Warden can reach this number only with bear.
Better players than me with the best possible gear could maybe push it to 35k, but I don't think it is possible to go higher (on dummy)

Stam sorc looks like the best one. I think in real combat warden performs better with bear. Without bear all classes perform better both in real combat and on dummy than warden

For the record, I never actually tested DK and Templar, but class does not really matter that much.

Regarding group DPS I have no idea. I only solo or pug.
Regarding gear, I run spriggan+mother gaze. Basically use whatever all other stam builds are running. Except monster set, which you cant (embrace the instant 2k dps loss just because you lack one set piece)

Solariken wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Regardless of setup, I never broke 23k on a dummy using a stamden. I think my highest was with 5 spriggan, 5 VO, vMA bow (no good masters bow ) before hotr. Gave up and haven't tried since. These were no bear tests.

@Toc de Malsvi is the best bow/bow I know and has tried it on all setups/classes. His conclusion was stamsorc is the best class. I think he runs hundings and tfs with master and vMA bows. He tops out around 31-32k.

The issue the bow/bow beyond being 5-10k less dps than a meta stam dps setup is the lack of survival tools. No shields and no blade cloak means you spend most of a vet trial on your back. In addition to buffing damage, ZOS needs to give ranged stamina survival tools.

Ha, that's interesting all my tests on Stamplar had me capped ~23k also and I could never get above that. Granted I don't have a Master's bow nor perfect traits on most of the gear I was testing.

I did just complete the slots I was missing to try an Essence Thief build which should allow me to stack more damage in other ways. But I'll try to report back if it turns out to be any good.

I tried essence for short time. It is meh. Doable if you know the range and somehow circle around mindlessly while still focusing on DPS, but 15% chance on light attack is actually so small. I could not even complete one dummy test without 1-2 20sec downtimes where I simply was not procing it.

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Regardless of setup, I never broke 23k on a dummy using a stamden. I think my highest was with 5 spriggan, 5 VO, vMA bow (no good masters bow ) before hotr. Gave up and haven't tried since. These were no bear tests.

@Toc de Malsvi is the best bow/bow I know and has tried it on all setups/classes. His conclusion was stamsorc is the best class. I think he runs hundings and tfs with master and vMA bows. He tops out around 31-32k.

The issue the bow/bow beyond being 5-10k less dps than a meta stam dps setup is the lack of survival tools. No shields and no blade cloak means you spend most of a vet trial on your back. In addition to buffing damage, ZOS needs to give ranged stamina survival tools.

I got 33k on the Stam Sorc! Cutting me short bro!

I don't quite have everything golded out, although I have sharpened VMA/VDSA(not that it matters anymore)

I golded out everything on PTS and got 32k solo with my stam DK bow/bow, running Hundings(or Briarheart)+TFS, but averaged around 31k. It can go up by another 1-2k if someone would provide Major Fracture. I'm fairly certain 35k is possible in "perfect" dummy test scenarios for both Stam Sorc and Stam NB.

On live I've been running Hundings + Agility + Skoria on my DK, with VMA/VDSA and sharpened weapons. This nets me 30.6k solo and 32.4k if someone provides Major Fracture. Don't have a full set of TFS yet.

Thanks for all the replies so far!

I suppose I'll add a bit about myself here that I realize I could've added to the initial post. I come from a few years of bow/bow PvP in Cyrodiil and was wondering how I could go with that weapon load-out in the PvE sphere. I'd be changing a few abilities and playstyle a little of course, but I wanted to hopefully keep the archer build to some extent. Luckily, I'm not looking to run Veteran Trials any time soon, but maybe normal Trials, (I've done a few PuG runs of nSO for a full set of TFS and VO gear - mostly divines), and maybe eventually early DLC dungeons once I get used to the PvE style a bit more.

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Regardless of setup, I never broke 23k on a dummy using a stamden. I think my highest was with 5 spriggan, 5 VO, vMA bow (no good masters bow ) before hotr. Gave up and haven't tried since. These were no bear tests.

@Toc de Malsvi is the best bow/bow I know and has tried it on all setups/classes. His conclusion was stamsorc is the best class. I think he runs hundings and tfs with master and vMA bows. He tops out around 31-32k.

The issue the bow/bow beyond being 5-10k less dps than a meta stam dps setup is the lack of survival tools. No shields and no blade cloak means you spend most of a vet trial on your back. In addition to buffing damage, ZOS needs to give ranged stamina survival tools.

Interesting. A few of the above posters have mentioned vMA/Masters bow. Having done some reading in the interim, it seems like it is possible to do vMA or vDSA with a bow/bow build? Is it much harder with the lack of survivability tools?

I've seen @Toc de Malsvi on the forums and their bow/bow antics!

I hit up to 23.5k as a StamBlade when I swapped out some abilities and was trying different sets on the PTS with Master/vMA weapons. So, sounds like there's room for improvement!

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

If you just want to run normal trials, vet dungeons, vma, and vdsa then getting into the high 20s / low 30s is fine for dps. As someone said, you won't be lighting up the scoreboards, but you can complete all that content perfectly fine on a bow/bow.

Yeah, this. Your only problem in this content will be players unwilling to accept your build choice.

RunningShadow wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

If you just want to run normal trials, vet dungeons, vma, and vdsa then getting into the high 20s / low 30s is fine for dps. As someone said, you won't be lighting up the scoreboards, but you can complete all that content perfectly fine on a bow/bow.

Yeah, this. Your only problem in this content will be players unwilling to accept your build choice.

Yeah, I ran a nWGT recently and the other DPS about part-way through started commenting about the bow/bow. Luckily the healer was pretty much; "It's normal and we're clearing stuff fine."

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Regardless of setup, I never broke 23k on a dummy using a stamden. I think my highest was with 5 spriggan, 5 VO, vMA bow (no good masters bow ) before hotr. Gave up and haven't tried since. These were no bear tests.

@Toc de Malsvi is the best bow/bow I know and has tried it on all setups/classes. His conclusion was stamsorc is the best class. I think he runs hundings and tfs with master and vMA bows. He tops out around 31-32k.

The issue the bow/bow beyond being 5-10k less dps than a meta stam dps setup is the lack of survival tools. No shields and no blade cloak means you spend most of a vet trial on your back. In addition to buffing damage, ZOS needs to give ranged stamina survival tools.

I got 33k on the Stam Sorc! Cutting me short bro!

I don't quite have everything golded out, although I have sharpened VMA/VDSA(not that it matters anymore)

I golded out everything on PTS and got 32k solo with my stam DK bow/bow, running Hundings(or Briarheart)+TFS, but averaged around 31k. It can go up by another 1-2k if someone would provide Major Fracture. I'm fairly certain 35k is possible in "perfect" dummy test scenarios for both Stam Sorc and Stam NB.

On live I've been running Hundings + Agility + Skoria on my DK, with VMA/VDSA and sharpened weapons. This nets me 30.6k solo and 32.4k if someone provides Major Fracture. Don't have a full set of TFS yet.

When you're pulling those 30k plus numbers, are you getting any group buffs, or being fed shards, etc. or is that all self-buffed?

I don't get shards, its usually a dps loss to be picking them up, unless you really need to keep from hitting 0 on stam. I get 30k+ fine without someone providing Major Fracture. It's just harder to get above 31k without someone providing the debuff. Still with the right gear completely upgraded 32k is more realistic solo.

The difference from getting Major Fracture depends heavily on what class, and what buffs you are already providing. For instance on the Stam DK I can provide my own Major Fracture with Noxious Breath, however its a poor DoT, if someone else provides it I can use Caltrops instead of Noxious Breath.

On the DK I gain 1-2k from someone else providing the buff. On the Sorc I gain around 3k from someone else providing the buff. On the NB its around 1-2k if you stay in Melee range, and closer to 3k if you stay max range. On Warden it makes no difference because Shalks hits harder than Snipe so you are going to use that anyways. The Templar I cannot tell you definitively I only test Templar on PTS as I don't have one max level on live, it should be close to a 3k increase.

Essentially provided the target still has armor left to penetrate 5280 penetration from Major Fracture roughly equates to a 3k dps increase. This is more relevant if your dps is already close to 30k.

Ah, alright. Yeah, my DPS is still around 20k self-buffed, so Major Fracture isn't an immediate concern I suppose.

My current load-out is TFS/VO purple + Random gold Sharpened Weapons as I don't have any TFS or VO weapons to make room for a 1-piece Kragh or Velidreth/Kena - I take it Infused+WpDmg Enchant is better these days on the bow?

As far as abilities, I have Leeching Strikes, Relentless Focus, Resolving Vigor, Endless Hail, Focused Aim, Killer's Blade, Razor Caltrops, Acid Spray, (any better with the Patch + Asylum Bow?), then one I swap around. Camouflaged Hunter if I don't feel like using potions, or Draining Shot if I'm solo'ing mobs that can be CC'd or when I ran nMA for extra heals. Oh, and Venom Arrow, which is the interrupt morph because I find it fun in Cyrodiil because no one expects to be range-interrupted, and nHRC. How much of a difference does Poison Injection make with the execute damage? Then finally the Toxic Barrage. Is Ballista unequivocally better? I liked to use the Toxic Barrage as downtime to regen stamina.

RunningShadow wrote: »

Ah, alright. Yeah, my DPS is still around 20k self-buffed, so Major Fracture isn't an immediate concern I suppose.

My current load-out is TFS/VO purple + Random gold Sharpened Weapons as I don't have any TFS or VO weapons to make room for a 1-piece Kragh or Velidreth/Kena - I take it Infused+WpDmg Enchant is better these days on the bow?

As far as abilities, I have Leeching Strikes, Relentless Focus, Resolving Vigor, Endless Hail, Focused Aim, Killer's Blade, Razor Caltrops, Acid Spray, (any better with the Patch + Asylum Bow?), then one I swap around. Camouflaged Hunter if I don't feel like using potions, or Draining Shot if I'm solo'ing mobs that can be CC'd or when I ran nMA for extra heals. Oh, and Venom Arrow, which is the interrupt morph because I find it fun in Cyrodiil because no one expects to be range-interrupted, and nHRC. How much of a difference does Poison Injection make with the execute damage? Then finally the Toxic Barrage. Is Ballista unequivocally better? I liked to use the Toxic Barrage as downtime to regen stamina.

Personally I got slightly better numbers having infused with poison enchant on frontbar over wep dmg. I think next patch you will want to do this and have weapon damage enchant on backbar, but the difference will be minimal anyway. The trait or enchants do not matter that much. Its all about getting maybe 1% better DPS.

Acid Spray is 300DPS better now after patch. Using Asylum is barely better than using random weapon. Just that 1 monster shoulder/mask on 5+5+1 setup is much better than it.

PI makes huge difference. Seriously, remorph it now. You think the interrupt is fun and find good use for it? I thought so too ~2years ago, then one day I remorphed and never went back. I dont know how much DPS simple venom is nowadays, but I constantly get Poison Injection for 2.5-3k DPS.

Ballista is unequivocally better. Even if you really really struggle with stamina for some reason, just by having all DOTs running and heavy attacking during the ballista (~2 heavy attacks) it is probably twice the DPS of Toxic Barrage.

SodanTok wrote: »

RunningShadow wrote: »

Ah, alright. Yeah, my DPS is still around 20k self-buffed, so Major Fracture isn't an immediate concern I suppose.

My current load-out is TFS/VO purple + Random gold Sharpened Weapons as I don't have any TFS or VO weapons to make room for a 1-piece Kragh or Velidreth/Kena - I take it Infused+WpDmg Enchant is better these days on the bow?

As far as abilities, I have Leeching Strikes, Relentless Focus, Resolving Vigor, Endless Hail, Focused Aim, Killer's Blade, Razor Caltrops, Acid Spray, (any better with the Patch + Asylum Bow?), then one I swap around. Camouflaged Hunter if I don't feel like using potions, or Draining Shot if I'm solo'ing mobs that can be CC'd or when I ran nMA for extra heals. Oh, and Venom Arrow, which is the interrupt morph because I find it fun in Cyrodiil because no one expects to be range-interrupted, and nHRC. How much of a difference does Poison Injection make with the execute damage? Then finally the Toxic Barrage. Is Ballista unequivocally better? I liked to use the Toxic Barrage as downtime to regen stamina.

Personally I got slightly better numbers having infused with poison enchant on frontbar over wep dmg. I think next patch you will want to do this and have weapon damage enchant on backbar, but the difference will be minimal anyway. The trait or enchants do not matter that much. Its all about getting maybe 1% better DPS.

Acid Spray is 300DPS better now after patch. Using Asylum is barely better than using random weapon. Just that 1 monster shoulder/mask on 5+5+1 setup is much better than it.

PI makes huge difference. Seriously, remorph it now. You think the interrupt is fun and find good use for it? I thought so too ~2years ago, then one day I remorphed and never went back. I dont know how much DPS simple venom is nowadays, but I constantly get Poison Injection for 2.5-3k DPS.

Ballista is unequivocally better. Even if you really really struggle with stamina for some reason, just by having all DOTs running and heavy attacking during the ballista (~2 heavy attacks) it is probably twice the DPS of Toxic Barrage.

Ah. Alright!

Yeah, thought I ended reading a post - by Toc de Malvsi in fact - about swapping it out for a monster shoulder piece was actually better than having Asylum. Hopefully it gets reworked a little before live to be a bit more useful.

I jumped on PTS to try it out with re-morphing, and it bugged and gave me the base ability at Rank III. <_< So I guess I'll turn in a few quests to get that back to morph, or just try out a Template character and give them my gear.

I'll test that out on PTS when I get the experience back to re-morph Poison Injection and see what I get compared to now. I know it'll be more useful for burst combos in Cyrodiil too, come to think on it.

RunningShadow wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

You should get around 32k on any class with VMA bow and good gear (does not have to be trial gear). You dont have to be in some maximum range to reach this either. Range damage advantage can be easily matched by using some short range class skill (like hurricane on sorc)
Stam Warden can reach this number only with bear.
Better players than me with the best possible gear could maybe push it to 35k, but I don't think it is possible to go higher (on dummy)

Stam sorc looks like the best one. I think in real combat warden performs better with bear. Without bear all classes perform better both in real combat and on dummy than warden

For the record, I never actually tested DK and Templar, but class does not really matter that much.

Regarding group DPS I have no idea. I only solo or pug.
Regarding gear, I run spriggan+mother gaze. Basically use whatever all other stam builds are running. Except monster set, which you cant (embrace the instant 2k dps loss just because you lack one set piece)

Velidreth has a long range. Stormfist proc's at distance. Why can't you use these?

I think SodanTok means that with Bow, you only get a total of 11 items, so two 5-pieces and one shoulder, rather than dual-wield which can have two 5-pieces and a full 2-piece monster set.

I'd place a bet that 2 Velidreth, 3 VO, 5 TFS with Master and vMA Bow > 5 TFS + 5 whatever other set + Master and vMA bows.

SodanTok wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

RunningShadow wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

You should get around 32k on any class with VMA bow and good gear (does not have to be trial gear). You dont have to be in some maximum range to reach this either. Range damage advantage can be easily matched by using some short range class skill (like hurricane on sorc)
Stam Warden can reach this number only with bear.
Better players than me with the best possible gear could maybe push it to 35k, but I don't think it is possible to go higher (on dummy)

Stam sorc looks like the best one. I think in real combat warden performs better with bear. Without bear all classes perform better both in real combat and on dummy than warden

For the record, I never actually tested DK and Templar, but class does not really matter that much.

Regarding group DPS I have no idea. I only solo or pug.
Regarding gear, I run spriggan+mother gaze. Basically use whatever all other stam builds are running. Except monster set, which you cant (embrace the instant 2k dps loss just because you lack one set piece)

Velidreth has a long range. Stormfist proc's at distance. Why can't you use these?

I think SodanTok means that with Bow, you only get a total of 11 items, so two 5-pieces and one shoulder, rather than dual-wield which can have two 5-pieces and a full 2-piece monster set.

I'd place a bet that 2 Velidreth, 3 VO, 5 TFS with Master and vMA Bow > 5 TFS + 5 whatever other set + Master and vMA bows.

The difference was marginal, but thats not the point. I was more talking into the context of what can you do with 'normal' gear.
I would have to put it to test, but now that you can enchant master/vma the setup you are describing should be clear winner.

Yeah I'm talking Clockwork, since HotR is over in a month anyway.

I'd say Master's Bow front bar with a Poison damage Enchant and a vMA Bow with a Weapon Damage enchant. Both Infused of course. Then you'd just have to find a rotation that allows a bar swap roughly every 6 seconds to keep that Berserker glyph proccing.

Izaki wrote: »

RunningShadow wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

You should get around 32k on any class with VMA bow and good gear (does not have to be trial gear). You dont have to be in some maximum range to reach this either. Range damage advantage can be easily matched by using some short range class skill (like hurricane on sorc)
Stam Warden can reach this number only with bear.
Better players than me with the best possible gear could maybe push it to 35k, but I don't think it is possible to go higher (on dummy)

Stam sorc looks like the best one. I think in real combat warden performs better with bear. Without bear all classes perform better both in real combat and on dummy than warden

For the record, I never actually tested DK and Templar, but class does not really matter that much.

Regarding group DPS I have no idea. I only solo or pug.
Regarding gear, I run spriggan+mother gaze. Basically use whatever all other stam builds are running. Except monster set, which you cant (embrace the instant 2k dps loss just because you lack one set piece)

Velidreth has a long range. Stormfist proc's at distance. Why can't you use these?

I think SodanTok means that with Bow, you only get a total of 11 items, so two 5-pieces and one shoulder, rather than dual-wield which can have two 5-pieces and a full 2-piece monster set.

I'd place a bet that 2 Velidreth, 3 VO, 5 TFS with Master and vMA Bow > 5 TFS + 5 whatever other set + Master and vMA bows.

VO is not one of the sets provided on the PTS, I used 3 piece War Machine in its place. With 2 Velidreth and 5 TFS:
Compared with 5 TFS and 5 Briarheart:
As you can see there isn't a very big difference, its small enough that it may not be a difference at all. Would need to run 25-50 tests to determine a definable difference. Perhaps the extra crit from VO would outpace War Machine but its really hard to say for sure.

I can confirm that Stam Bow/Bow NB can break 35k. But you have to be in melee range.

ArnoTerranova wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I can confirm that Stam Bow/Bow NB can break 35k. But you have to be in melee range.

Thanks for the nice thread and the above input from expert players, I find it very useful.

Regarding last input from @Toc de Malsvi
First, let me state the obvious: Here you played as Nightblade, with bow/bow, but at short range so you can use the bear trap.

But may I ask about your gear?
Twice Fang 5 pieces,
Hawk Eyes 3 pieces,
and ?
Weapons: Twice fang bow with infused + Poison & ?

Thank you for your time

AFAIK 5 TFS, 5 War Machine, Master bow, VMA bow all infused
Poison ench front, weapon damage backbar

You wont be able to reproduce it without the NB ulti (and obv being melee)