Bow/Bow Average DPS

Toc de Malsvi

SodanTok wrote: »

ArnoTerranova wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I can confirm that Stam Bow/Bow NB can break 35k. But you have to be in melee range.

Thanks for the nice thread and the above input from expert players, I find it very useful.

Regarding last input from @Toc de Malsvi
First, let me state the obvious: Here you played as Nightblade, with bow/bow, but at short range so you can use the bear trap.

But may I ask about your gear?
Twice Fang 5 pieces,
Hawk Eyes 3 pieces,
and ?
Weapons: Twice fang bow with infused + Poison & ?

Thank you for your time

AFAIK 5 TFS, 5 War Machine, Master bow, VMA bow all infused
Poison ench front, weapon damage backbar

You wont be able to reproduce it without the NB ulti (and obv being melee)

This is correct. It drops to around 33k at range, at least with the setups I've tried.

Izaki

Well isn't the whole point of playing Bow/Bow being a ranged DD rather than melee?

Anyone tried Warden? All of their class skills can hit from range. The bear can proc War Machine too.

SodanTok

Izaki wrote: »

Well isn't the whole point of playing Bow/Bow being a ranged DD rather than melee?

Anyone tried Warden? All of their class skills can hit from range. The bear can proc War Machine too.

Yes. Either I sux or it is bad. Out of these 3 setups (3WM + veli, 5 briar, 5WM) the one will full WM was worst for me. Maybe If I tinkered for longer with it and found the best timing for bear ult (it basically is online every 20sec) maybe I could get it better, but since major slayer takes 10sec I dont think it would be much different because the whole rotation will be included.

On NB you can save the relentless shot (if it procs few sec before) to after using ult so it gets all the good bonuses. There is nothing really interesting happening on warden.

Toc de Malsvi

Izaki wrote: »

Well isn't the whole point of playing Bow/Bow being a ranged DD rather than melee?

Anyone tried Warden? All of their class skills can hit from range. The bear can proc War Machine too.

You would think that.

Bow/Bow as opposed to main bar bow with 2H or DW back bar, the only real advantage is not dropping Hawkeye stacks.

Thing is basic scaling is significantly worse on bow because you have less weapon damage. Even if you max out your range for Long Shots passive for the 12% increase to weapon damage you are still 80+ weapon damage behind the base starting point for DW or 2H.

This becomes most significant for non weapon line skills. Viger, Trap, Dive, Surprise Attack, Venomous Claw... etc... all do less simply because you have a bow equipped.

Then compare lightweight trap with rearming trap. You can use lightweight at range but it does 1/2 to 2/3 the damage and has half the uptime on Minor Force for the same stamina cost. So not only will it do less damage just for having a bow equipped, but the range version is half the value of the melee version at the same cost.

Bow passives primarily benefit bow skills, but as % modifiers they are reduced in value the more CP that you have. You are stuck with either play in melee and be a weaker dps. Or play at range and be abysmal dps.

Imho the warden is actually on the lower end for bow dps. Bow passives to do not support warden skills. All you get realistically is Dive and Sub Assault, and you get more dps out of Snipe than Dive.

Sorc and NB are your best options. Sorc has the most well rounded tools for it. NB has the highest damage cap.

DKs are dead last unless you are willing to play in melee range.

SodanTok

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Well isn't the whole point of playing Bow/Bow being a ranged DD rather than melee?

Anyone tried Warden? All of their class skills can hit from range. The bear can proc War Machine too.

You would think that.

Bow/Bow as opposed to main bar bow with 2H or DW back bar, the only real advantage is not dropping Hawkeye stacks.

Thing is basic scaling is significantly worse on bow because you have less weapon damage. Even if you max out your range for Long Shots passive for the 12% increase to weapon damage you are still 80+ weapon damage behind the base starting point for DW or 2H.

This becomes most significant for non weapon line skills. Viger, Trap, Dive, Surprise Attack, Venomous Claw... etc... all do less simply because you have a bow equipped.

Then compare lightweight trap with rearming trap. You can use lightweight at range but it does 1/2 to 2/3 the damage and has half the uptime on Minor Force for the same stamina cost. So not only will it do less damage just for having a bow equipped, but the range version is half the value of the melee version at the same cost.

Bow passives primarily benefit bow skills, but as % modifiers they are reduced in value the more CP that you have. You are stuck with either play in melee and be a weaker dps. Or play at range and be abysmal dps.

Imho the warden is actually on the lower end for bow dps. Bow passives to do not support warden skills. All you get realistically is Dive and Sub Assault, and you get more dps out of Snipe than Dive.

Sorc and NB are your best options. Sorc has the most well rounded tools for it. NB has the highest damage cap.

DKs are dead last unless you are willing to play in melee range.

tl;dr
ZoS used logic that stuff from range should not be as good as stuff from melee. Then they used it on everything even stuff that was already affected because everything is connected.
So you get less damage because you are ranged and then the ranged skill you use does less damage because of it, but they also give it less damage and lesser uptime because it is ranged skill. Nice game.

btw (from PTS)

AverageJo3Gam3r

@Izaki the bear inflates dps on a dummy by 3-4k. Overworld and maybe dungeons it might be alright, but in a trial it dies all the time. Couldn't even keep it up during nHoF, let alone any of the vet trials.

Toc de Malsvi

SodanTok wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Well isn't the whole point of playing Bow/Bow being a ranged DD rather than melee?

Anyone tried Warden? All of their class skills can hit from range. The bear can proc War Machine too.

You would think that.

Bow/Bow as opposed to main bar bow with 2H or DW back bar, the only real advantage is not dropping Hawkeye stacks.

Thing is basic scaling is significantly worse on bow because you have less weapon damage. Even if you max out your range for Long Shots passive for the 12% increase to weapon damage you are still 80+ weapon damage behind the base starting point for DW or 2H.

This becomes most significant for non weapon line skills. Viger, Trap, Dive, Surprise Attack, Venomous Claw... etc... all do less simply because you have a bow equipped.

Then compare lightweight trap with rearming trap. You can use lightweight at range but it does 1/2 to 2/3 the damage and has half the uptime on Minor Force for the same stamina cost. So not only will it do less damage just for having a bow equipped, but the range version is half the value of the melee version at the same cost.

Bow passives primarily benefit bow skills, but as % modifiers they are reduced in value the more CP that you have. You are stuck with either play in melee and be a weaker dps. Or play at range and be abysmal dps.

Imho the warden is actually on the lower end for bow dps. Bow passives to do not support warden skills. All you get realistically is Dive and Sub Assault, and you get more dps out of Snipe than Dive.

Sorc and NB are your best options. Sorc has the most well rounded tools for it. NB has the highest damage cap.

DKs are dead last unless you are willing to play in melee range.

tl;dr
ZoS used logic that stuff from range should not be as good as stuff from melee. Then they used it on everything even stuff that was already affected because everything is connected.
So you get less damage because you are ranged and then the ranged skill you use does less damage because of it, but they also give it less damage and lesser uptime because it is ranged skill. Nice game.

btw (from PTS)

Looks like you were using Snipe on the DK and Dive on the Warden, which should account for the difference. Snipe is much more beneficial than Dive as it benefits from Hawkeye.

Not trying to say there is a huge difference, but the passive Advanced Species gives Warden a clear advantage at range. The only thing the DK can get in comparison is 5% weapon damage, but that passive will be generated by any DK for all parties in the group. So on a solo parse it might compare but as soon as you add in a group its lost, both Warden and DK become very comparable in group fights but Warden has the advantage of Advanced Species.

Certainly not as distinct as Sorc, NB, or Templar, but still an advantage.

SodanTok

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Well isn't the whole point of playing Bow/Bow being a ranged DD rather than melee?

Anyone tried Warden? All of their class skills can hit from range. The bear can proc War Machine too.

You would think that.

Bow/Bow as opposed to main bar bow with 2H or DW back bar, the only real advantage is not dropping Hawkeye stacks.

Thing is basic scaling is significantly worse on bow because you have less weapon damage. Even if you max out your range for Long Shots passive for the 12% increase to weapon damage you are still 80+ weapon damage behind the base starting point for DW or 2H.

This becomes most significant for non weapon line skills. Viger, Trap, Dive, Surprise Attack, Venomous Claw... etc... all do less simply because you have a bow equipped.

Then compare lightweight trap with rearming trap. You can use lightweight at range but it does 1/2 to 2/3 the damage and has half the uptime on Minor Force for the same stamina cost. So not only will it do less damage just for having a bow equipped, but the range version is half the value of the melee version at the same cost.

Bow passives primarily benefit bow skills, but as % modifiers they are reduced in value the more CP that you have. You are stuck with either play in melee and be a weaker dps. Or play at range and be abysmal dps.

Imho the warden is actually on the lower end for bow dps. Bow passives to do not support warden skills. All you get realistically is Dive and Sub Assault, and you get more dps out of Snipe than Dive.

Sorc and NB are your best options. Sorc has the most well rounded tools for it. NB has the highest damage cap.

DKs are dead last unless you are willing to play in melee range.

tl;dr
ZoS used logic that stuff from range should not be as good as stuff from melee. Then they used it on everything even stuff that was already affected because everything is connected.
So you get less damage because you are ranged and then the ranged skill you use does less damage because of it, but they also give it less damage and lesser uptime because it is ranged skill. Nice game.

btw (from PTS)

Looks like you were using Snipe on the DK and Dive on the Warden, which should account for the difference. Snipe is much more beneficial than Dive as it benefits from Hawkeye.

Not trying to say there is a huge difference, but the passive Advanced Species gives Warden a clear advantage at range. The only thing the DK can get in comparison is 5% weapon damage, but that passive will be generated by any DK for all parties in the group. So on a solo parse it might compare but as soon as you add in a group its lost, both Warden and DK become very comparable in group fights but Warden has the advantage of Advanced Species.

Certainly not as distinct as Sorc, NB, or Templar, but still an advantage.

True, probably should make snipe test too, just for the sake of consistency. But there is no reason to do snipe warden in real fight (well, unless the DPS is too high to pass) with the damage 2% gain from dive and possibility to use it anytime there is window. With sub assault spammed every 3seconds the window is too short for 2 snipes, but too long to just do one and nothing else (tho damage wise snipe is nearly as good as 2 dives anyway)

Now I am waiting for next PTS patch in case something changes. Like asylum bow (possible) or anything bow related (unlikely).

Nox_Noir

I played this a lot in homestead, got about 33k on dummy on a NB, maybe 32k on sorc. I didn't have a masters bow, but night mothers gaze front bar bow plus 1piece kragh proved to be a very good substitude.
After Morrowind the rotation wasn't sustainable anymore, can barely hit higher than 28k since then.

Apart from sustain/damage Bow/Bow unfortunetely has several other problems if you wanna play it in a trial right now:
- low survivability (no deadly cloak, or shields etc)
- low splash damage and AOE
- you can't really make full use of the Longshots passive most of the time as you want to be in front of your healer for buffs+heals

I think they should change the hawkeye passive to a higher stack cap, this is one of the few things that would give Bow/bow PVE an edge over melee, and they should change it to give a flat number of extra weapon damage, say 150 or 200 per stack.
Also something for survivability, maybe reduced damage depending on distance to the attacker to stick with the range theme or something like that.

Toc de Malsvi

Nox_Noir wrote: »

I played this a lot in homestead, got about 33k on dummy on a NB, maybe 32k on sorc. I didn't have a masters bow, but night mothers gaze front bar bow plus 1piece kragh proved to be a very good substitude.
After Morrowind the rotation wasn't sustainable anymore, can barely hit higher than 28k since then.

Apart from sustain/damage Bow/Bow unfortunetely has several other problems if you wanna play it in a trial right now:
- low survivability (no deadly cloak, or shields etc)
- low splash damage and AOE
- you can't really make full use of the Longshots passive most of the time as you want to be in front of your healer for buffs+heals

I think they should change the hawkeye passive to a higher stack cap, this is one of the few things that would give Bow/bow PVE an edge over melee, and they should change it to give a flat number of extra weapon damage, say 150 or 200 per stack.
Also something for survivability, maybe reduced damage depending on distance to the attacker to stick with the range theme or something like that.

If Acid Spray was cheap enough to be an effective spammable then Bow would have plenty of splash. I used to run my DK like this before Morrowind. I'd use Acid Spray instead of Snipe and get 2-3 in plus a heavy attack. I feel its too expensive now and the damage isn't good enough. Next PTS patch I'll try again and see if maybe I can go all weapon damage enchants on Jewelry and then use Acid Spray with maybe two heavy attacks in the rotation.

AverageJo3Gam3r

I still don't see how bow/bow survives in vet trials without blade cloak or damage shields...

DocFrost72

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

I still don't see how bow/bow survives in vet trials without blade cloak or damage shields...

I almost never get hit. Example: on the troll fight in SO, I can stand on the rock by the stairs at the edge of the bridge, lay all my ground dots and hit the boss with my standard rotation. The tremors can't touch me unless the tank brings it too close.

AverageJo3Gam3r

@DocFrost72 in vet trials there are meta strategies to either soft or hard stack for each encounter. Plus you can't avoid certain mechanics. For example, how does a bow/bow build survive a call lightning in vSO without shields or blade cloak? Require the healer to constantly BoL them?

kylewwefan

RunningShadow wrote: »

I thought about making a poll, but there are too many different options, both regarding actual numbers and gear/ability setup.

So, much like the title states, for you bow/bow users out there, what average DPS are you getting on dummies? And how much does that tend to change in group situations?
And what types of setups are you using if you're up for sharing!

There are some great double bow build players commenting on this thread about what is achievable. these guys are very very good.

From an average player trying very hard to make the double bow thing work you’ll probably find much less damage. And even less realistic damage in a dungeon and without both the maelstrom and masters bow.

DocFrost72

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@DocFrost72 in vet trials there are meta strategies to either soft or hard stack for each encounter. Plus you can't avoid certain mechanics. For example, how does a bow/bow build survive a call lightning in vSO without shields or blade cloak? Require the healer to constantly BoL them?

@AverageJo3Gam3r I'm fortunate enough to have a sorc bow build, so the 3-5k (almost always 5k, thanks to crit) constant healing helps a crapton in soft stacks, especially when you factor you're already getting springs too. With that in mind, the answer is always sacrifice DPS for survivability which may mean more health (and a drop in damage) on other setups, for sure.

AverageJo3Gam3r

@DocFrost72 makes sense, thanks. I used to farm vma on a stamsorc back when I needed weapons. I love the self heals and speed, but I can't stand the hurricane visuals.

Danksta

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I can confirm that Stam Bow/Bow NB can break 35k. But you have to be in melee range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2QhL6xRfYM

Second parse this player breaks 35k from range. I couldn't find any build info but thought some of you here might something useful in there.

SodanTok

Danksta wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I can confirm that Stam Bow/Bow NB can break 35k. But you have to be in melee range.

Second parse this player breaks 35k from range. I couldn't find any build info but thought some of you here might something useful in there.

HotR changed plenty of stuff. Most notably sharpened and thief nerf with infused changes (this is pre nerf video)

but overall yeah, this is good example of perfect or nearly perfect bow rotation on 3M dummy, probably 32-33k DPS in current patch

Danksta

SodanTok wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I can confirm that Stam Bow/Bow NB can break 35k. But you have to be in melee range.

Second parse this player breaks 35k from range. I couldn't find any build info but thought some of you here might something useful in there.

HotR changed plenty of stuff. Most notably sharpened and thief nerf with infused changes (this is pre nerf video)

but overall yeah, this is good example of perfect or nearly perfect bow rotation on 3M dummy, probably 32-33k DPS in current patch

My bad, for some reason I was thinking this was HotR.

SodanTok

Funny thing about HotR patch is that they nerfed sharpened and kept same precise while buffing nirnhoned and infused.

Sharpened and Precise are traits balanced around the difference of DW x 2H. Two handed weapons have twice as powerful the trait of one handed.
Nirn and Infused? Nope. Totally same. So we got enchantment and infused meta AND now they are allowing enchanting special weapons (vma, master, asylum) while two handed weapons still keep the same value of infused, same value of enchant AND limitation of just one enchant per bar.

Actually, nirn and infused are the ONLY traits that do not have difference between 1H and 2H. How very thoughtful.

RunningShadow

kylewwefan wrote: »

RunningShadow wrote: »

I thought about making a poll, but there are too many different options, both regarding actual numbers and gear/ability setup.

So, much like the title states, for you bow/bow users out there, what average DPS are you getting on dummies? And how much does that tend to change in group situations?
And what types of setups are you using if you're up for sharing!

There are some great double bow build players commenting on this thread about what is achievable. these guys are very very good.

From an average player trying very hard to make the double bow thing work you’ll probably find much less damage. And even less realistic damage in a dungeon and without both the maelstrom and masters bow.

Aye, I've hit around the 27k mark thus far in my PTS tests, and that was on dummies. But I'm improvin' when I get the time. No idea what that'd be like in a realistic scenario, though.

I like all the good discussion and suggestions this thread has sparked. It's been really informative.