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vMA and Master weapons are not used just because of the abilty modifiers.
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arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
No it isn't.
I could use the 348 on back bar, proc and switch to front bar with the 189. It's a nerf. Especially to the destro as nobody uses wall of elements in PvP. It's now a random staff basically.
You do know that a flame, poison, or shock damage glyph will out damage 189 wd/sd. You can still proc the berserker glyph of the back bar and swap to the front. This is a big buff in both pvp and pve. 189 sd/wd hardly moves tool tips where a damage type glyph is a new damage source you did not have. You can get an additional 1.5-3k damage off it in pvp, higher in pve. Both types of glyphs don't share a cooldown.
Do they definitely not share cooldown?
Also, nirn pls butality/sorcery make it more than 189. That also effects healing too.
And why not use 5/5 and monster piece? Get a bit less damage but can use the enchant. Especially on the staff. Why give myself a wall of elements buff over 129 spell damage?
1314 Damage is modified by all CPs. It is a significant buff to light and heavy attacks and especially on a lightning staff. No doubt it is stronger.
But who use blockade in PvP?
I do as of yesterday, @Derra does, a few other magblades on PC EU do. It is a very strong skill.
Open world? Don't people just step out of the big stationary AOE?ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/170 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the change. It will discourage the use of poisons and people will go with glyphs instead.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
No it isn't.
I could use the 348 on back bar, proc and switch to front bar with the 189. It's a nerf. Especially to the destro as nobody uses wall of elements in PvP. It's now a random staff basically.
You do know that a flame, poison, or shock damage glyph will out damage 189 wd/sd. You can still proc the berserker glyph of the back bar and swap to the front. This is a big buff in both pvp and pve. 189 sd/wd hardly moves tool tips where a damage type glyph is a new damage source you did not have. You can get an additional 1.5-3k damage off it in pvp, higher in pve. Both types of glyphs don't share a cooldown.
Do they definitely not share cooldown?
Also, nirn pls butality/sorcery make it more than 189. That also effects healing too.
And why not use 5/5 and monster piece? Get a bit less damage but can use the enchant. Especially on the staff. Why give myself a wall of elements buff over 129 spell damage?
1314 Damage is modified by all CPs. It is a significant buff to light and heavy attacks and especially on a lightning staff. No doubt it is stronger.
But who use blockade in PvP?
I do as of yesterday, @Derra does, a few other magblades on PC EU do. It is a very strong skill.
Open world? Don't people just step out of the big stationary AOE?
In duels they do - open world it´s one of the most underrated skills in the game.
Any situation where an enemy wants to kill you is a situation where they will take woe dmg if you position yourself correctly. It´s reliably my highest source of dmg on magblade even in singletarget fights (if the fight isn´t over in 5s).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
No it isn't.
I could use the 348 on back bar, proc and switch to front bar with the 189. It's a nerf. Especially to the destro as nobody uses wall of elements in PvP. It's now a random staff basically.
You do know that a flame, poison, or shock damage glyph will out damage 189 wd/sd. You can still proc the berserker glyph of the back bar and swap to the front. This is a big buff in both pvp and pve. 189 sd/wd hardly moves tool tips where a damage type glyph is a new damage source you did not have. You can get an additional 1.5-3k damage off it in pvp, higher in pve. Both types of glyphs don't share a cooldown.
Do they definitely not share cooldown?
Also, nirn pls butality/sorcery make it more than 189. That also effects healing too.
And why not use 5/5 and monster piece? Get a bit less damage but can use the enchant. Especially on the staff. Why give myself a wall of elements buff over 129 spell damage?
1314 Damage is modified by all CPs. It is a significant buff to light and heavy attacks and especially on a lightning staff. No doubt it is stronger.
But who use blockade in PvP?
I do as of yesterday, does, a few other magblades on PC EU do. It is a very strong skill.
Open world? Don't people just step out of the big stationary AOE?
You overrate the zerglings. Kappa.Edited by hmsdragonfly on September 19, 2017 6:10AMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
No it isn't.
I could use the 348 on back bar, proc and switch to front bar with the 189. It's a nerf. Especially to the destro as nobody uses wall of elements in PvP. It's now a random staff basically.
You do know that a flame, poison, or shock damage glyph will out damage 189 wd/sd. You can still proc the berserker glyph of the back bar and swap to the front. This is a big buff in both pvp and pve. 189 sd/wd hardly moves tool tips where a damage type glyph is a new damage source you did not have. You can get an additional 1.5-3k damage off it in pvp, higher in pve. Both types of glyphs don't share a cooldown.
Do they definitely not share cooldown?
Also, nirn pls butality/sorcery make it more than 189. That also effects healing too.
And why not use 5/5 and monster piece? Get a bit less damage but can use the enchant. Especially on the staff. Why give myself a wall of elements buff over 129 spell damage?
1314 Damage is modified by all CPs. It is a significant buff to light and heavy attacks and especially on a lightning staff. No doubt it is stronger.
But who use blockade in PvP?
I do as of yesterday, @Derra does, a few other magblades on PC EU do. It is a very strong skill.
Open world? Don't people just step out of the big stationary AOE?
In duels they do - open world it´s one of the most underrated skills in the game.
Any situation where an enemy wants to kill you is a situation where they will take woe dmg if you position yourself correctly. It´s reliably my highest source of dmg on magblade even in singletarget fights (if the fight isn´t over in 5s).
It's also easy to miss in open world if their computer struggles to render particle effects with more going on. That's another reason it works.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on September 19, 2017 6:19AM0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't understand the complaining..... this sounds like a buff to these weapons, especially if Infused....
Explain why you think it's a buff.
It's a nerf because I could use a spell damage enchant on my back bar, proc it, swap to front, maintain that damage and get 189 from my VMA staff.
The new way means I lose that 189 damage. Yes, I gain an enchant on my front bar, but on a cooldown and doesn't stack with back bar. It's a nerf.
Well most of these buffs will weaken your character because you simply build incorrectly. Sorry lol
As an example:
- A BiS Magicka Pet Sorc DPS setup tends to use 1x Kena, 5x Julianos (frontbar staff), 5x Necropotence, 1x vMA staff backbar
- The frontbar enchant is always Shock Damage since is provides higher DPS and concusses enemies often in HotR. You shouldn't be using the Beserk enchant in the first place if you are going for DPS
With this Clockwork City change, you won't get 189 Spell Damage on your backbar.... instead you'll get 348 Spell damage after 1 light attack which carries over onto your frontbar. If using Infused (BiS trait), it will provide even more Spell Damage and proc with a high uptime especially when needed.
For PvE there is no debate to be had whatsoever about this - ZOS buffed Master and Maelstrom weapons (especially Master weapons). I'm glad about this as well.
I'm happy for you. I also noticed that this thread is mostly about PvP and the fact that we were forced to grind some *** ass arena for something that's now obsolete. Where does your amazing reasoning come into play in this picture?0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.0 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.
Here's our math god and savior Asayre's math on the matter http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/#post-6749061 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.
Here's our math god and savior Asayre's math on the matter http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/#post-674906
This is all you need to say, really it is all there, do your homework.
But in case you dont.
In pve, mobs are technically only level 50, unlike players who are level 66. So pve mobs resists are topped out at 50k, though the mobs only have 9.1k (ovor 18.2k.
Nirn is not "15% more damage". Nirn is a 15% base *spell* and *weapon* damage increase, which works out to a 200 spell damage increase for a staff, like you even stated. This equals around a 4% damage increase on an average build. Sharpened is a stright 5.5% increase in damage as long as there is any of the 18.2k or 9.1k to pen.0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
How does this nerf PvP? You lost 189 Spell Damage, but you gained an enchantment which can easily be used for Beserk (almost 2x as powerful as the base Maelstrom enchant) if you really care for that bonus Spell Damage.
This buff will only need something like 50%-60% uptime (easy) to be as strong as the current 189 Spell Damage. In PvP everything is about burst damage btw, so gaining higher Spell Damage though not with 100% uptime is actually better. Also you can apply a poison to your Maelstrom/Master staff and keep the special enchantment which is great for PvP.
To me is sounds like a buff that makes these weapons more versatile in PvP.
...maybe for the staff it could be viewed as a minor nerf depending on your build. Imo it's great though. For DW it's going to be amazing.
"It sounds like a buff." Meaning you don't PvP and therefore don't realise how it is a nerf in PvP.
It's a nerf. Nobody will use them vma weapons in PvP. I 100% guarantee it.
This patch, I can use back bar enchant, get the 189 and use a poison. Next patch, I get back bar enchant, poison and wall of elements... Even the 2h is halved and then resistances come into play so ticks for like 300 damage if it isn't purged. Honestly, outside of master bow, those skill buffs these weapons do aren't great for PvP.
Half the uptime on double damage isn't better. While it is all about burst, PvP is also about consistency. I don't want the extra damage while I weakening my opponent only for it to drop off before I use my combo with my ult and it hits weaker.
Cool, they're buffed in Pve. I now do 0.35% more DPS. Why completely ruined them for PvP just to make them slightly better for Pve? Well, I know why. Because the new weapons are strong (destro is broken op) so people will buy the dlc and farm them. $$$$$$$$
Thing is, you need 11 people to do this trial. It's not like VMA where I could go there myself and get what I needed. ZOS are now forcing people to do 12 man content. To then PvP. If that destro goes live, you will be forced to.
I do both Pve and PvP pretty equally. But a lot just PvP. A lot of people had to spend a lot of time farming vma to get them, and now they are absolutely useless. That's a huge kick in the nuts for them.
To be honest, if that destro goes live PvP will die. Because sorcs will literally stomp everything. It'll be pointless. 8% more damage taken and I do 15% less damage. As soon as a sorc hits me once every 4 seconds and I'm outnumbered, I'm done for.Edited by Brrrofski on September 19, 2017 7:33AM0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭
How does this nerf PvP? You lost 189 Spell Damage, but you gained an enchantment which can easily be used for Beserk (almost 2x as powerful as the base Maelstrom enchant) if you really care for that bonus Spell Damage.
This buff will only need something like 50%-60% uptime (easy) to be as strong as the current 189 Spell Damage. In PvP everything is about burst damage btw, so gaining higher Spell Damage though not with 100% uptime is actually better. Also you can apply a poison to your Maelstrom/Master staff and keep the special enchantment which is great for PvP.
To me is sounds like a buff that makes these weapons more versatile in PvP.
...maybe for the staff it could be viewed as a minor nerf depending on your build. Imo it's great though. For DW it's going to be amazing.
"It sounds like a buff." Meaning you don't PvP and therefore don't realise how it is a nerf in PvP.
It's a nerf. Nobody will use them vma weapons in PvP. I 100% guarantee it.
This patch, I can use back bar enchant, get the 189 and use a poison. Next patch, I get back bar enchant, poison and wall of elements... Even the 2h is halved and then resistances come into play so ticks for like 300 damage if it isn't purged. Honestly, outside of master bow, those skill buffs these weapons do aren't great for PvP.
Half the uptime on double damage isn't better. While it is all about burst, PvP is also about consistency. I don't want the extra damage while I weakening my opponent only for it to drop off before I use my combo with my ult and it hits weaker.
Cool, they're buffed in Pve. I now do 0.35% more DPS. Why completely ruined them for PvP just to make them slightly better for Pve? Well, I know why. Because the new weapons are strong (destro is broken op) so people will buy the dlc and farm them. $$$$$$$$
Thing is, you need 11 people to do this trial. It's not like VMA where I could go there myself and get what I needed. ZOS are now forcing people to do 12 man content. To then PvP. If that destro goes live, you will be forced to.
To be honest, if that destro goes live PvP will die. Because sorcs will literally stomp everything. It'll be pointless. 8% more damage taken and I do 15% less damage. As soon as a sorc hits me once every 4 seconds and I'm outnumbered, I'm done for.
While I do 100% agree with you on how op the destro is, I doubt it'll go on live. ZOS does make some ridiculously stupid decisions, but they did after all nerf torug's + oblivion. I'm sure they will do something to this as well. Increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds respectively 11 seconds is fine imo.
0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »a possible fix would be to make the bonus stats still an enchantment but keep the change with the ability altering part being a set bonus. this way people that would rather use a normal enchant can but for pvp and other situations where you would rather the flat stat bonuses you can.
Just do this and there's literally no issue. For everyone complaining;
Those who say it's a buff since a weapon damage glyph gives more anyways have nothing to lose since your build is theoretically higher.
Those who say its a nerf since a weapon damage glyph gives less damage have nothing to lose since your build is theoretically higher.
Or maybe this makes too much sense?
Also, literally everyone here should click agree to @Oakmontowls_ESO comment...
Yeh, it should come with the standard enchant. That works as it does now. Drop the skill part to the set piece. Keep the 189 damage WHILE SLOTTED. If people want to change it, cool, they can weaken their weapon in pvp. If not, they'll benefit from the extra damage like they do now.0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
How does this nerf PvP? You lost 189 Spell Damage, but you gained an enchantment which can easily be used for Beserk (almost 2x as powerful as the base Maelstrom enchant) if you really care for that bonus Spell Damage.
This buff will only need something like 50%-60% uptime (easy) to be as strong as the current 189 Spell Damage. In PvP everything is about burst damage btw, so gaining higher Spell Damage though not with 100% uptime is actually better. Also you can apply a poison to your Maelstrom/Master staff and keep the special enchantment which is great for PvP.
To me is sounds like a buff that makes these weapons more versatile in PvP.
...maybe for the staff it could be viewed as a minor nerf depending on your build. Imo it's great though. For DW it's going to be amazing.
"It sounds like a buff." Meaning you don't PvP and therefore don't realise how it is a nerf in PvP.
It's a nerf. Nobody will use them vma weapons in PvP. I 100% guarantee it.
This patch, I can use back bar enchant, get the 189 and use a poison. Next patch, I get back bar enchant, poison and wall of elements... Even the 2h is halved and then resistances come into play so ticks for like 300 damage if it isn't purged. Honestly, outside of master bow, those skill buffs these weapons do aren't great for PvP.
Half the uptime on double damage isn't better. While it is all about burst, PvP is also about consistency. I don't want the extra damage while I weakening my opponent only for it to drop off before I use my combo with my ult and it hits weaker.
Cool, they're buffed in Pve. I now do 0.35% more DPS. Why completely ruined them for PvP just to make them slightly better for Pve? Well, I know why. Because the new weapons are strong (destro is broken op) so people will buy the dlc and farm them. $$$$$$$$
Thing is, you need 11 people to do this trial. It's not like VMA where I could go there myself and get what I needed. ZOS are now forcing people to do 12 man content. To then PvP. If that destro goes live, you will be forced to.
To be honest, if that destro goes live PvP will die. Because sorcs will literally stomp everything. It'll be pointless. 8% more damage taken and I do 15% less damage. As soon as a sorc hits me once every 4 seconds and I'm outnumbered, I'm done for.
While I do 100% agree with you on how op the destro is, I doubt it'll go on live. ZOS does make some ridiculously stupid decisions, but they did after all nerf torug's + oblivion. I'm sure they will do something to this as well. Increasing the cooldown to 10 seconds respectively 11 seconds is fine imo.
It can't do what it does. Regardless of cooldown. Yes it's a destro skill so anyone can use it. In PvP they don't though. Only a sorc does. So this straight up buffs an already top 3 class. Buffs them a lot. They already hit hard and mitigate a lot of damage. This will just make them stupid. It'll be horrible unless you play one.0 -
Borvath✭✭They should make those removed stats enchants, while keeping the special effects as a set bonuses. So if someone wanted to change the stat, they would be able to have a different stat, while keeping the effect.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.
Here's our math god and savior Asayre's math on the matter http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/#post-674906
Oh come on.... :'(
All my math work disappeared.
Well, you were mostly right. I did a whole bunch of math and had it typed out here and sharpened actually beats nirnhoned when the armor level would put the enemy damage reduction between about 18% and 52.5%, because of above levels still affecting sharpened. Nirnhoned is better outside that range.
I still wouldn't choose sharpened without knowing the exact armor level of the enemy I was fighting though.
Edit: Nirnhoned also benefits healing and shields which sharpened does not. So definitely nirnhoned for me.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on September 19, 2017 7:52AM0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.
Here's our math god and savior Asayre's math on the matter http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/#post-674906
Oh come on.... :'(
All my math work disappeared.
Well, you were mostly right. I did a whole bunch of math and had it typed out here and sharpened actually beats nirnhoned when the armor level would put the enemy damage reduction between about 18% and 52.5%, because of above levels still affecting sharpened. Nirnhoned is better outside that range.
I still wouldn't choose sharpened without knowing the exact armor level of the enemy I was fighting though.
Edit: Nirnhoned also benefits healing and shields which sharpened does not. So definitely nirnhoned for me.
what does this mean? please elaborate.
you do know the armor level of pve mobs, the are either 18.2k , which is 36.4% reduction of damage or 9.1k, which is 18.2% damage reduction.
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Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.
Here's our math god and savior Asayre's math on the matter http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/#post-674906
Oh come on.... :'(
All my math work disappeared.
Well, you were mostly right. I did a whole bunch of math and had it typed out here and sharpened actually beats nirnhoned when the armor level would put the enemy damage reduction between about 18% and 52.5%, because of above levels still affecting sharpened. Nirnhoned is better outside that range.
I still wouldn't choose sharpened without knowing the exact armor level of the enemy I was fighting though.
Edit: Nirnhoned also benefits healing and shields which sharpened does not. So definitely nirnhoned for me.
what does this mean? please elaborate.
you do know the armor level of pve mobs, the are either 18.2k , which is 36.4% reduction of damage or 9.1k, which is 18.2% damage reduction.
I did not know the armor level of pve mobs, since it is not posted obviously noted by the developers anywhere. They like to keep helpful information like that secret to make easier choices more difficult for us.
Also, doesn't that number only apply to tougher enemies like bosses and not count in any weird mechanics and buffs?
My numbers were more useful towards pvp where armor varies more anyway. Although, champion points adds a whole new element.
I'm still going to see more benefit from nirnhoned since I tend to be a tanky hybrid dps/heals.0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Just transmute it to nirnhoned for more damage bonus which gets applied as a base increase, then enchant it with a Truly Super Glyph of Weapon Damage for 348 instead of the low 189 it once had.
If that's not a buff then you're reading it wrong.
Sharpened is still better then nirn for 95% of the people that play this game. I really wish people understood this.
No it's not.
Sharpened causes your attacks to ignore 2752 of the target's resistance, which they have to have resistance that can be brought below the cap to begin with, and is only 4.17% mitigation cut through since it was nerfed from 5280 which was only 8%. That's on a 2-handed weapon so worse on dual wield per piece.
Nirnhoned is a 15% bonus to your base weapon/spell damage, on a 2 handed weapon. That also buffs all your skills that depend on that stat also.
Nirnhoned is mathematically superior, especially against enemies with less/no armor/resistance or above cap.
Please, Let's see that math then because literally the only time I have seen sharpened lose is when there is no armor left to penetrate, which is something only the top guilds in the game can manage in a way that makes since to use anything else. For PVE of course, where 500 penetration equals 1% damage increase.
No, 660 penetration equals 1% damage increase. Just like 660 resistance/armor equals 1% damage reduction.
And why wouldn't 15% more damage trump 4.17% more damage?
A 15% damage buff to a restoration staff, for example, is 200 spell damage more. That's equivalent to 2000 max magicka, give or take a bit.
My templar has the skill Dark Flare that does 9729 damage with 1335 damage on my weapon. I switch to the nirnhoned staff and it gets 1535 damage which buffs Dark Flare up to 10224. That's a 495 damage increase which translates to 5.08788% increase in damage.
Just on that one skill it is superior without any Minor or Major Sorcery buffs or any other buffs to the spell damage.
Here's our math god and savior Asayre's math on the matter http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/#post-674906
Oh come on.... :'(
All my math work disappeared.
Well, you were mostly right. I did a whole bunch of math and had it typed out here and sharpened actually beats nirnhoned when the armor level would put the enemy damage reduction between about 18% and 52.5%, because of above levels still affecting sharpened. Nirnhoned is better outside that range.
I still wouldn't choose sharpened without knowing the exact armor level of the enemy I was fighting though.
Edit: Nirnhoned also benefits healing and shields which sharpened does not. So definitely nirnhoned for me.
what does this mean? please elaborate.
you do know the armor level of pve mobs, the are either 18.2k , which is 36.4% reduction of damage or 9.1k, which is 18.2% damage reduction.
PvP.
Most these threads/posts are about vma weapons in PvP. Which are now dead.
So no, you don't know someone's resistance in PvP. Plus nirn applies to shields. Buffs healing too. So nirn is better mostly in PvP.
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SirCritical✭✭✭✭✭Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
Non-infused maelstrom weapon now: constant 189 weapon damage, poison of any choice
Non-infused mael weapon after the patch: 348 damage for half the time and only after light attack (= 174 damage on average), no poison, some skill buff you may not even want or need
Not to mention you could have backbar weapon with WD enchant and get even more
Well, this should be the key reason of using these weapons: to alter these skills. This is why these weapons were created. If you won't use these skills, you shouldn't use these weapons. Maybe this is a nerf, yes. Or just a change, what is understandable. Again: these weapons are unique because of their special effect, not their flat dmg-bonus.Edited by SirCritical on September 19, 2017 8:02AM0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler you probably shouldn't do that. most people care more about the state bonus then the buff to wall of element/crit rush etc. that's literally gonna make master weapons/VMA weapons kinda junk.Invictus0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SirCritical wrote: »Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
Non-infused maelstrom weapon now: constant 189 weapon damage, poison of any choice
Non-infused mael weapon after the patch: 348 damage for half the time and only after light attack (= 174 damage on average), no poison, some skill buff you may not even want or need
Not to mention you could have backbar weapon with WD enchant and get even more
Well, this should be the key reason of using these weapons: to alter these skills. This is why these weapons were created. If you won't use these skills, you shouldn't use these weapons. Maybe this is a nerf, yes. Or just a change, what is understandable. Again: these weapons are unique because of their special effect, not their flat dmg-bonus.
True. They are unique because of their special effect. Thats why people are mad over this. They were also unique because of their special flat stat/dmg bonus. Which is far more interesting in PVP than, dunno, endless hail buff
Most PVP people did hundreds of VMA runs to get these weapon BECAUSE of the stat. This is almost on scale of removing the special effects for PVE players. They are literally decon material unless you use the skill they need you to use it and care about the bonus from it.Edited by SodanTok on September 19, 2017 8:09AM0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler you probably shouldn't do that. most people care more about the state bonus then the buff to wall of element/crit rush etc. that's literally gonna make master weapons/VMA weapons kinda junk.
Now you did it. Now they'll remove the special effect and just nerf the stats to normal weapon levels.
They're going to make them balanced whether you want that or not. I know. I would love to be overpowered too.
We may as well accept that they now can make it a set bonus for the special effect, which is more than we would have without it, and deal with the change to what enchantment stats it gets.0 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No stamblade is going to want vma 2H anyways next patch when that Asylum 2H drops.
I think ZoS offered nice compensation for this change though with being able to enchant the weapons now.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Developer Comments: Due to the fact these items can now be enchanted or poisoned normally, their extraneous stat bonuses have been removed. For example, the Maelstrom’s Greatsword no longer adds 189 Weapon Damage on top of the modifier to Critical Charge.
The bonus stat is a deciding factor for people to use vMA and Master weapons and it helps creating so many unique builds based on those weapons. This change will eliminate 50% of vMA weapon builds.
1) vMA staves will no longer be viable in PvP for all 5 magicka classes. This is a big deal.Very few people use elemental blockade in PvP, so we are not going to see any vMA staff in PvP in the future.
2) vMA 2H weapons are no longer good for stamblades. Most stamblades use Ambush instead of Crit Charge.
3) vMA DW weapons are no longer good for stamplars. Because stamplars use jabs, not Flurry.
4) No more vMA weapons for stamina heavy attack builds.
etc
This really hurts build crafting. If you feel that vMA/Master weapons will be too OP, how about nerfing the bonus stat to 129 weapon/spell damage and 1096 stamina/magicka instead of removing it entirely? Or even nerf the modifiers a little bit. Please leave some kind of the bonus stat so it can be somewhat useful without having to use the specific ability.@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler you probably shouldn't do that. most people care more about the state bonus then the buff to wall of element/crit rush etc. that's literally gonna make master weapons/VMA weapons kinda junk.
In the developers defence, it might be a move to make the new Asylum Weapons even more desirable. At the moment the main issue with some vMA weapons (especially the bow) you can´t animation cancel endless hail. The hail needs to hit a mob before you can swap bar to get the thunderous volley boost.
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hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭SirCritical wrote: »Okay, you all know you can enchant the special weapons now and not loose it abilities. So now you can add a weapons/spell damage enchant of 348, which is more than the 189 you get from the weapons bonus. Or you can use a poison and still get the 1 peace weapons ability. This is a buff to these weapons specially if it is infused.
Non-infused maelstrom weapon now: constant 189 weapon damage, poison of any choice
Non-infused mael weapon after the patch: 348 damage for half the time and only after light attack (= 174 damage on average), no poison, some skill buff you may not even want or need
Not to mention you could have backbar weapon with WD enchant and get even more
Well, this should be the key reason of using these weapons: to alter these skills. This is why these weapons were created. If you won't use these skills, you shouldn't use these weapons. Maybe this is a nerf, yes. Or just a change, what is understandable. Again: these weapons are unique because of their special effect, not their flat dmg-bonus.
If only this change helps promoting build diversity. Sadly, it's the opposite: this change hurts build diversity, we are going to see fewer unique and interesting vMA weapon builds. These weapons are unique for their modifiers, but without the flat stat bonus they will be much less desirable, because it's very limiting if they have to use the exact ability to gain any kind of benefit compared to a random crafted non-set weapon, so it's not worth it. You are a StamNB, don't even think about using unique 2H, you have to drop Ambush. You are a MagDK and you want to use an unique fire staff? You are out of luck unless you drop Flame Lash. MagNB, drop Funnel Health and Fear. As a person who loves build crafting, I feel like this change is bad for build crafting overall, as it hurts build diversity.
Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Developer Comments: Due to the fact these items can now be enchanted or poisoned normally, their extraneous stat bonuses have been removed. For example, the Maelstrom’s Greatsword no longer adds 189 Weapon Damage on top of the modifier to Critical Charge.
The bonus stat is a deciding factor for people to use vMA and Master weapons and it helps creating so many unique builds based on those weapons. This change will eliminate 50% of vMA weapon builds.
1) vMA staves will no longer be viable in PvP for all 5 magicka classes. This is a big deal.Very few people use elemental blockade in PvP, so we are not going to see any vMA staff in PvP in the future.
2) vMA 2H weapons are no longer good for stamblades. Most stamblades use Ambush instead of Crit Charge.
3) vMA DW weapons are no longer good for stamplars. Because stamplars use jabs, not Flurry.
4) No more vMA weapons for stamina heavy attack builds.
etc
This really hurts build crafting. If you feel that vMA/Master weapons will be too OP, how about nerfing the bonus stat to 129 weapon/spell damage and 1096 stamina/magicka instead of removing it entirely? Or even nerf the modifiers a little bit. Please leave some kind of the bonus stat so it can be somewhat useful without having to use the specific ability.@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler you probably shouldn't do that. most people care more about the state bonus then the buff to wall of element/crit rush etc. that's literally gonna make master weapons/VMA weapons kinda junk.
In the developers defence, it might be a move to make the new Asylum Weapons even more desirable. At the moment the main issue with some vMA weapons (especially the bow) you can´t animation cancel endless hail. The hail needs to hit a mob before you can swap bar to get the thunderous volley boost.
How about we give asylum weapons bonus stats as well?Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0