WHAT WENT WRONG WITH PvP?

CatchMeTrolling · September 2017

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

On ps4 EU the situation is really sad on cp.
Almost everyone is running a tanky build with high healing and sh*t dmg running in 4+ people group:it's solo player hell.
Survivability needs to be tuned down if you want damage and vice versa. So tired of those groups running 80%templars 20% mag dk crossing cyrodiil holding block.

If you're out numbered, I have no advice, but if this game are equal.

Bleed builds can wreck block builds

Defile with CP is INSANE (add minor defile poison to flavor)

You can be equally defensive as well with many selections

The PvP environment has changed, the same ol' isn't the best (well the fotm)

I really really recommend going through some PvP builds here on the forums, full of wonderful ideas

It's not about the build,it's just that the game is too much forgiving,people are carried by mechanics and numbers and not by their skill level. I remember before thieves guild even if you were xv1ing you had to be careful because one mistake and you were dead,now its so easy to survive because you have a lot of damage even if you build for survivability

I think people forget that players are better now. Take the first year, I imagine people collectively didnt understand anything. You can now watch a handful of people on youtube with 3+ years of exp for advice on anything from builds to mechanics for explanation let alone from in game

No the game is just less forgiving and theres less counter play at the moment. Yeah there's experienced players but there's more newer player's, just watching something isn't going to suddenly make you a 1vxer for an example, that takes experience.

doslekis · September 2017

I hear yah OP. Ps4 na here too, lots of permablock, high health, bloodspawn builds going on right now.

And those sorcs shield are always tricky.

Betsararie · September 2017

doslekis wrote: »

I hear yah OP. Ps4 na here too, lots of permablock, high health, bloodspawn builds going on right now.

And those sorcs shield are always tricky.

yeah and the sad part is these are in the majority, so you see these people calling out people who run much tougher setups as cancer, when really it is actually reversed.

The tankiness makes up for lack of skill in a lot of cases.

thankyourat · September 2017

Pvp started to go downhill for me when heavy armor got buffed for a couple reasons. One it allowed players to survive longer than they should making it harder for solo/small scale players to get kills. Heavy armor is also the reason why alot of players are running in destro ball groups. Multiple destro ultimates is the only way to wipe a group of heavy armor players stacked in a ball. This makes more players wear heavy armor to try to combat the destro ultimate. If heavy armor was to become less attractive i think my play time would pretty much go back to normal

Emmagoldman · September 2017

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

On ps4 EU the situation is really sad on cp.
Almost everyone is running a tanky build with high healing and sh*t dmg running in 4+ people group:it's solo player hell.
Survivability needs to be tuned down if you want damage and vice versa. So tired of those groups running 80%templars 20% mag dk crossing cyrodiil holding block.

If you're out numbered, I have no advice, but if this game are equal.

Bleed builds can wreck block builds

Defile with CP is INSANE (add minor defile poison to flavor)

You can be equally defensive as well with many selections

The PvP environment has changed, the same ol' isn't the best (well the fotm)

I really really recommend going through some PvP builds here on the forums, full of wonderful ideas

It's not about the build,it's just that the game is too much forgiving,people are carried by mechanics and numbers and not by their skill level. I remember before thieves guild even if you were xv1ing you had to be careful because one mistake and you were dead,now its so easy to survive because you have a lot of damage even if you build for survivability

I think people forget that players are better now. Take the first year, I imagine people collectively didnt understand anything. You can now watch a handful of people on youtube with 3+ years of exp for advice on anything from builds to mechanics for explanation let alone from in game

No the game is just less forgiving and theres less counter play at the moment. Yeah there's experienced players but there's more newer player's, just watching something isn't going to suddenly make you a 1vxer for an example, that takes experience.

I agree, but I disagree on one aspect in that you have the ability over the time of a games life to play with others that have played for years. Even if you took the same player, one that played when the game was released and one that had all information laid out, you would see a much shorter learning curve with the latter. I wasnt here when it was launched but ive seen the pvp vids. People all over the place

Same as when I was in the military. You think your high speed, until your boots on the ground. When oef started, just for about everyone fighting was new. Jump to when I got out in 2006, a vast majority of my unit had been deployed with half at least twice. We pooled a lot of experience and know how and new guys were brought up to speed fast as hell as we knew what to expect. This compared to our first deployment when we had no idea beyond our training.

Minno · September 2017

Lag is what killed PvP; and removal of quick rezzing removed quick PvP, further killing off PvP as a fun experience.

nCP only BGs with premades isn't helping either. No one wants to join a game only to get smacked for 10 minutes straight; it's like playing against MJ and the bulls with you on your neighborhood stick-ball pug group.

fred4 · September 2017

Just to say no CP PvP is alive and well on PC EU, with Sotha Sil usually almost as full as Vivec.

WaltherCarraway · September 2017

magDK hardest class confirmed.

Alpheu5 · September 2017

Guess I'll chip into this numbers compilation, and throw in the list of top killers for good measure.

Breakdown:

Top killers part 1:

Ascendies and I dueled a lot before One Tamriel

Top killers part 2:

Waffennacht · September 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Guess I'll chip into this numbers compilation, and throw in the list of top killers for good measure.

Breakdown:

Top killers part 1:

Ascendies and I dueled a lot before One Tamriel

Top killers part 2:

Anti-Warden bias!

Zbigb4life · September 2017

dpencil1 wrote: »

You know, if you don't like how CP effects PvP you can choose to play in a no-CP campaign or battlegrounds.

OP said he likes the non-cp campaigns but no one plays them...

Sylosi · September 2017

fred4 wrote: »

Just to say no CP PvP is alive and well on PC EU, with Sotha Sil usually almost as full as Vivec.

LOL, you mean the campaign where the PvE heroes of EP go to PvDoor against minimal opposition,, because AD & DC are on Vivec...

So you get the typical population pattern you have as I write this, Vivec - AD & DC have 2 bars, EP only one, and why do they have only one because most of them hiding in Sotha Sil where they have 2 bars and AD & DC have 1 bar there, PVDoor heroes.

ShadowProc · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

NA PS4 server.

I have been playing this game since launch, seen all kinds of phases to the PvP game--- but I will say right now in CP, it sucks.
I like Non-CP, but no one plays..

CP looks like this:
A whole bunch of sheild stacking sorcs with amazingly high survivability vs a whole bunch of tanky players with amazingly high survivability.. (with the occassional nightblade or something, who won't kill any of the above 1 v 1 ) 75% of the 1 v 1's end in a draw, you have players from all factions just walking around trolling on "No Death" builds.. and it's stupid.

[...]
This isn't meant to be a troll post, just a concerned post from a long time player who doesn't like the direction this game has gone.

Here we go again. Where do you get your data that there are so many sorcs? Let me provide some data from my kill counter addon which has been collecting data over my periodic play over the last two years.

Okay, so basically kill counter has not been updated to include data on wardens (I'll probably take a crack at it myself before too much longer), and the data on wardens would be skewed by the difference in time anyway.

But lets take a look at the kills/deaths dealt and received from each class with a bit of commentary.

Kills are actually pretty even across the board:
Templars (27.57%): Commonly used for healing in raids and probably the most common class to solo heal/zerg surf. I'd say this class is unusually common just for that.

DK (20.14%): This number is likely the lowest because of how many DKs actually just roll as tanks.

NightBlades (25.97%): NBs are what I view as the common foot soldier. "There are always at least 2 NBs in every screenshot" - Lilith Arujo

Sorcs (22.53%): So I guess this the point of interest from the OP's bold statement. Less sorc kills than NB or templar. Is this because sorcs are so hard to kill, or are they merely not as common as you and half these forums think?

Now lets look at the "killed by" stats:
Templars (21.01%): Recognizing that templars often roll as pure healers with maybe j-beam or jabs as an only attack

Dks (14.77%): Interestingly low here. I contribute this again to the number of DK's that basically roll tanks.

NBs (33.34%): Well, over a third of my deaths are to NBs, isn't that interesting?

Sorcs (28.32%): Given the "fury-spamming kill-stealing easy-god-mode sorc class" isn't it interesting that this number isn't higher?

As one would expect, the healing and tank classes kill me the least, and the classes with strong burst and utility/mobility skills get the most kills.

So what does this mean for population balance? With maybe DKs being slightly underpopulated (or just tanky enough to basically dodge the kill counter stats), the overall diversity of cyrodill appears to be pretty much balanced.

TL;DR
I essentially disagree with your state of Cyrodiil assertion. It is not just a bunch of unkillable magsorcs against unkillable tanks with presumably all other players on other builds or classes that simply get fed into some sort of AP meat grinder.

Ty! Actually someone willing to provide legit data, which ofc will see a bit of variation. Very rare we see stuff like this.

If you log onto these Forums you would think nearly everyone is a Magicka Sorcerer (except for the people commenting here ofc ) and that Magicka Sorcerers are super super super super super easy mode in all content while also simultaneously being #1 in all content. Likewise, ZOS hates NBs who require astronomical amounts of skill to play and are doomed to be behind Magicka Sorc in every way, but if you play one you are highly skilled and not, I repeat, NOT, a meta player....

It's the type of discussion that raging PvPers who fail a gank and then die to Endless Fury can create overtime.

Actually. Its not good data. Its like setting master merchant to last two years. Not useful at all

The population shifts from patch to patch. To whichever is the easiest.

Post kill counter data from last 2 months for an accurate point

Stamicka · September 2017

It is true that PvP has become full of handicap mechanics to keep bad players alive longer. The simplest form of this is health stacking, I come across people often in the 200-500 CP range with 40k health and heavy armor with no reason other than to not die while in a Zerg. These players usually have no clue what's going on, and get AP through Xv1. They aren't build to tank, they are just built to be immune to a good burst combo. For a solo player this is a problem because the extra time it takes to kill them really takes a toll on you. Their damage may suck but they can still do things to harm you like, root, snare, stun, or reduce your healing received. Such players would be an easy kill without these handicap mechanics. Beyond health stacking though you have the restoration staff ultimate, the sword and shield ultimate, perma blocking, and the list goes on cause there's just so many unskillful ways to just stall your opponent. It is sad that tankiness and survivability is so easy to achieve now, no practice or skill needed.

Emmagoldman · September 2017

Theres been cheese mechanics in the past as well. Remember perma blocking, infinite rolling, 20 second shields? I cant imagine people who complain about sorcs now back when you had 20 sec shields up.

Whats making pvp less fun is we have generally been running the same zone forever. Will the war end?

ChunkyCat · September 2017

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Will the war end?

Nope.

Sedare · September 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Just to say no CP PvP is alive and well on PC EU, with Sotha Sil usually almost as full as Vivec.

LOL, you mean the campaign where the PvE heroes of EP go to PvDoor against minimal opposition,, because AD & DC are on Vivec...

So you get the typical population pattern you have as I write this, Vivec - AD & DC have 2 bars, EP only one, and why do they have only one because most of them hiding in Sotha Sil where they have 2 bars and AD & DC have 1 bar there, PVDoor heroes.

Are you joking? DC/AD hose EP on Sotha nightly (prime time from CST) EP hasn't been top scorer, or been high in population, in Sotha for at least 3 months (minus the double AP event). Every night is a DP, sans lube, nightmare of yellow and blue vs red. It's ridic, and DC leads with having the larger groups/raids, yellow 2nd, and 3rd goes to EP who perpetually their collective heads up their collective butts and never heard of a Tent or are allergic to them.

Malic · September 2017

I can tell you what went wrong on NA/PC but many arent going to want to hear it.

Many older guilds and players, upon observing the power of the CP system correctly concluded that the PVP portion of the development of the product was now a distant consideration. It was clear at that time that PVE was going to be the main focus, even to the determent of PVP.

Now its gotten better, but prior with the VR system the gear disparity was extremely evident. The remedy the CP system made the pvp game play so unbalanced it was remarkable in its stupidity. Remember this was BEFORE level scaling, and this was before a lot of the balance changes we have now.

In the end it was clear, and it still is that this is a PVE game primarily. Most of us understand why, it generates money. The issue a lot of the older players had like myself was that was never the intention, at least thats not what they said. Keep in mind, consoles was never part of the plan at least not out of the gate. Now granted the shady nature of console development on the backs of people paying a sub to play was another reason for the decline but overall it was horrific management of the pve pvp balance.

Its still a major problem, without searching the forums or googling it ask in your guild tonight "How many people know the name of the PVP dev for ESO"

Im betting less than 25% even know his first name.

Sedare · September 2017

Allowing Miats add-on to exist and persist is a good chunk of what went wrong with PVP (for PC).

TheDoomsdayMonster · September 2017

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

NA PS4 server.

I have been playing this game since launch, seen all kinds of phases to the PvP game--- but I will say right now in CP, it sucks.
I like Non-CP, but no one plays..

CP looks like this:
A whole bunch of sheild stacking sorcs with amazingly high survivability vs a whole bunch of tanky players with amazingly high survivability.. (with the occassional nightblade or something, who won't kill any of the above 1 v 1 ) 75% of the 1 v 1's end in a draw, you have players from all factions just walking around trolling on "No Death" builds.. and it's stupid.

[...]
This isn't meant to be a troll post, just a concerned post from a long time player who doesn't like the direction this game has gone.

Here we go again. Where do you get your data that there are so many sorcs? Let me provide some data from my kill counter addon which has been collecting data over my periodic play over the last two years.

Okay, so basically kill counter has not been updated to include data on wardens (I'll probably take a crack at it myself before too much longer), and the data on wardens would be skewed by the difference in time anyway.

But lets take a look at the kills/deaths dealt and received from each class with a bit of commentary.

Kills are actually pretty even across the board:
Templars (27.57%): Commonly used for healing in raids and probably the most common class to solo heal/zerg surf. I'd say this class is unusually common just for that.

DK (20.14%): This number is likely the lowest because of how many DKs actually just roll as tanks.

NightBlades (25.97%): NBs are what I view as the common foot soldier. "There are always at least 2 NBs in every screenshot" - Lilith Arujo

Sorcs (22.53%): So I guess this the point of interest from the OP's bold statement. Less sorc kills than NB or templar. Is this because sorcs are so hard to kill, or are they merely not as common as you and half these forums think?

Now lets look at the "killed by" stats:
Templars (21.01%): Recognizing that templars often roll as pure healers with maybe j-beam or jabs as an only attack

Dks (14.77%): Interestingly low here. I contribute this again to the number of DK's that basically roll tanks.

NBs (33.34%): Well, over a third of my deaths are to NBs, isn't that interesting?

Sorcs (28.32%): Given the "fury-spamming kill-stealing easy-god-mode sorc class" isn't it interesting that this number isn't higher?

As one would expect, the healing and tank classes kill me the least, and the classes with strong burst and utility/mobility skills get the most kills.

So what does this mean for population balance? With maybe DKs being slightly underpopulated (or just tanky enough to basically dodge the kill counter stats), the overall diversity of cyrodill appears to be pretty much balanced.

TL;DR
I essentially disagree with your state of Cyrodiil assertion. It is not just a bunch of unkillable magsorcs against unkillable tanks with presumably all other players on other builds or classes that simply get fed into some sort of AP meat grinder.

You are playing on PC...

The OP is playing on PS4 and I can 100% vouch for him as pertains the insane number of Sorcs on our Vivec Campaign...

Its a big reason why I love having teammates that run Shield Breaker...

Betsararie · September 2017

Stamicka wrote: »

It is true that PvP has become full of handicap mechanics to keep bad players alive longer. The simplest form of this is health stacking, I come across people often in the 200-500 CP range with 40k health and heavy armor with no reason other than to not die while in a Zerg. These players usually have no clue what's going on, and get AP through Xv1. They aren't build to tank, they are just built to be immune to a good burst combo. For a solo player this is a problem because the extra time it takes to kill them really takes a toll on you. Their damage may suck but they can still do things to harm you like, root, snare, stun, or reduce your healing received. Such players would be an easy kill without these handicap mechanics. Beyond health stacking though you have the restoration staff ultimate, the sword and shield ultimate, perma blocking, and the list goes on cause there's just so many unskillful ways to just stall your opponent. It is sad that tankiness and survivability is so easy to achieve now, no practice or skill needed.

This is 100% correct.

Say what you will about no cp but there is one fact about it, it is balanced.

Every class can do well, tanks are hard to kill but manageable, there are no real cancer tactics going on right now. I can honestly not think of one "cancer" playstyle in BGs, one could make the argument for premades, but really all those are are players forming a group with other players and then queueing. At its core, there is nothing wrong with that.

But the reason BGs is garbage is because of the objective game types, and getting bad players on your team. Those 2 things just kill it.

I am one of the more top tierish performing players in BGs, achieve 1vX on the regular, sometimes against very good players, but you just can't do much when the team is trash.

Non CP PvP is far more balanced than CP , which requires more skill is a little less clear there could be arguments in either direction, but there is a good likelihood it is no cp.

Either way the cancer unkillable builds and etc need to be cleaned out of CP before it can really be a serious game mode.