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Trade Kiosk Prices Skyrocketing?
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What part do you not understand?Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
You can be in the best trade guild in the game and keep ur place in it by selling a few things every so often. No one is forcing you to farm sh*t 24/7 and selling millions to keep ur place in it.
Just because they havent learnt how to trade it doesnt mean they are not allowed to trade.
Your average player will not be in the best trade guild in the game, they require more than the average player can sell. And you can be in a great trade guild and still find yourself with no trader and nowhere to sell, what part of that do you not understand.
You can be in multiple guilds. If none of them get a trader for consecutive weeks then they are not as great as you think they are and its time for you to change.
Average players can most certainly keep a place in the best trading guilds. The best trade guilds do not require astronomical selling prices. You can go and buy 10 tempers and just resell them. No profit, no loss. They will still be listed as things u sold in the guild and cover the requirments for the week.
There you go, i just told you how to keep a place in the best trade guilds in 20 minutes every week. Like i said, just because you or some other people dont know how to trade, it doesnt mean you are not allowed to.
LMAO.
That's probably all those big trade guilds are doing...buying *** off each other and reselling it all to each other for no profit. Yeah this system works :rolleyes:
Meanwhile people who actually want to trade whatever can't because the big trade guilds are filled with stuff that's getting resold for same price to the other big trade guilds, and back and forth.
Are you stupid or do you just pretend to be?
It doesnt matter what the other people do genius. Yeah other people in those guilds make millions of profit every week. They are not average players selling a few things every so often. Just because they do it, it doesnt mean that you have to do it as well.
I am telling you what you can do to keep ur place in those guilds even if you have absolutely nothing to sell. Whether you do it or not its ur choice. But you are allowed to sell. If you dont know how to do it its ur fault.
ffs...are you stupid or just pretend to be?
I don't need your advice for myself, I am trying to explain what is happening TO PEOPLE in this game.
And why the system is not working.
Nothing is happening TO PEOPLE in this game. They just dont know how to trade. You and those people have this dumb idea in ur mind that to keep a place in good guilds you need to farm like crazy for hours or donate your own gold. But thats all it is. A dumb idea that you put in ur mind because you dont know how to trade and you prefer to complain than to actually learn how to trade. I was like that once. I learnt.
I am in 2 of the best trade guilds in the game on my server if not the best and im telling you how average people can keep a place in guilds like that even when they have nothing to sell and without having to donate their own guild.Edited by pieratsos on September 18, 2017 2:44PM0 -
Rouven✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »(...)
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
A ) Now I kinda want to keep that one on the side, but since you mention economics, perhaps you are aware that another game hired an actual economist to help with their in-game trading system - suffice to say that it's open and easily accessed by everyone from everywhere. It's funny how the tune there is much different also in regards to proving the monopoly conspiracies.
B ) I can't help but feel that the above example is a great one against your argument. The system was fundamentally changed against their initial "vision" for the game, not because of lore - but simply to make sure people can play together and have fun.
At the end of the day that is the only thing I personally care for. Not an economy simulator (because excel-spreadsheet online already exists) but a fun game. Trading is a part of that and should be fun as well and not an exercise in frustration and alt-tabbing out of the game.
Anyways, the fun part is subjective and at the end of the day this does not make or break a game for me.
(Edit: B ) without the space in between is a smily ...)Edited by Rouven on September 18, 2017 2:47PMReal stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. ~ Terry Pratchett0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FloppyTouch wrote: »CrazyCleatus wrote: »Don't know what everyone has against auction houses. I made a lot of money in WoW starting with absolutely nothing on two different servers, each with different economies. I would start by buying and reselling stacks of cotton, and eventually worked my way up to buying and reselling high priced items.
It was actually a really fun process. The trading system in this game is pretty bogus compared to it, especially being on console, which makes searches insanely clunky. I also hate having to travel everywhere to find good deals. I'd waaaaaay rather it all be in one convenient place.
This current system is also awful for new guilds who can't afford the ridiculous bidding prices. Everyone should have equal opportunity to sell their goods.
And for everyone yelling "monopoly, monopoly, monopoly," in my years of playing WoW, they never stopped me from making it rich.
The only ppl against it are the ones running it and making it hard for any new guild to get in. They are also the people that are making insane profit by buying the low end traders stuff and reselling it in the prime areas. They don't want an AH bc this will be taken away from them.
With a central auction house three or four people could easily control the market on rare items. You think power traders are making insane profit now it is a drop in the bucket compared to what a few people can do with an auction house.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
Betheny✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FoolishHuman wrote: »Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
Literally anyone who wants to get into a trade guild can. People who just want to sell a few things every week dont belong in Blackbriar Barter Co. or any of the serious guilds, but there are still guilds with kiosks for every level of seller.
I agree with you 100% though that the bidding system needs to be improved to reduce volatility. GL getting ZoS to actually do that, but its better to be right and ineffectual than wrong and ineffectual I guess.
I don't see why it's okay to make it so some people can't be exposed to the market to sell their goods, when they might have the same items to sell as the ones who can get to a wider market, just fewer of them or less often or whatever their limiting factor is.
All players should be able to reach the same market equally, right now not only are some markets less trafficked, but some people don't even have a market to sell in at all.
Imagine if all the items looted in the game, all of them get to be on the market. What do you think the prices are gonna look like after a week?
Okay so you're saying it's intended that many people aren't allowed to trade. So only some people are allowed to make money in this game.
Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.3 -
CrazyCleatus✭✭✭FoolishHuman wrote: »Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
Literally anyone who wants to get into a trade guild can. People who just want to sell a few things every week dont belong in Blackbriar Barter Co. or any of the serious guilds, but there are still guilds with kiosks for every level of seller.
I agree with you 100% though that the bidding system needs to be improved to reduce volatility. GL getting ZoS to actually do that, but its better to be right and ineffectual than wrong and ineffectual I guess.
I don't see why it's okay to make it so some people can't be exposed to the market to sell their goods, when they might have the same items to sell as the ones who can get to a wider market, just fewer of them or less often or whatever their limiting factor is.
All players should be able to reach the same market equally, right now not only are some markets less trafficked, but some people don't even have a market to sell in at all.
Imagine if all the items looted in the game, all of them get to be on the market. What do you think the prices are gonna look like after a week? What do you think ZOS will do to the drop rates of items if everyone can have every piece of gear for a few gold? And once the drop rates are down you are not gonna be able to get any items yourself if you are not a crazy grinder, so you'll have to buy from the auction house. Suddenly the main part of the game does no longer take place on the dolmens and public dungeons, but the towns where people flip wares and sell farmed materials to buy the gear they want. This is what the current system has prevented for now.
If you wish for an economy simulation game with some fantasy rpg attached to it you should try playing guild wars 2 or path of exile.
Your auction house fears wouldn't happen because this game has lots of BoP items that can't be sold or traded. There's a reason WoW's auction houses work so well, while Diablo 3's were a complete failure (and ultimately removed).
If ZoS adds auction houses, they won't need to do anything about drop rates. If you've ever played a game with a well executed auction house, you would understand where players like myself and many others come from.
The only thing an auction house would do is make buying and selling items a lot less of a pain in the a**... Which believe it or not, is actually a good thing.4 -
Betheny✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What part do you not understand?Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
You can be in the best trade guild in the game and keep ur place in it by selling a few things every so often. No one is forcing you to farm sh*t 24/7 and selling millions to keep ur place in it.
Just because they havent learnt how to trade it doesnt mean they are not allowed to trade.
Your average player will not be in the best trade guild in the game, they require more than the average player can sell. And you can be in a great trade guild and still find yourself with no trader and nowhere to sell, what part of that do you not understand.
You can be in multiple guilds. If none of them get a trader for consecutive weeks then they are not as great as you think they are and its time for you to change.
Average players can most certainly keep a place in the best trading guilds. The best trade guilds do not require astronomical selling prices. You can go and buy 10 tempers and just resell them. No profit, no loss. They will still be listed as things u sold in the guild and cover the requirments for the week.
There you go, i just told you how to keep a place in the best trade guilds in 20 minutes every week. Like i said, just because you or some other people dont know how to trade, it doesnt mean you are not allowed to.
LMAO.
That's probably all those big trade guilds are doing...buying *** off each other and reselling it all to each other for no profit. Yeah this system works :rolleyes:
Meanwhile people who actually want to trade whatever can't because the big trade guilds are filled with stuff that's getting resold for same price to the other big trade guilds, and back and forth.
Are you stupid or do you just pretend to be?
It doesnt matter what the other people do genius. Yeah other people in those guilds make millions of profit every week. They are not average players selling a few things every so often. Just because they do it, it doesnt mean that you have to do it as well.
I am telling you what you can do to keep ur place in those guilds even if you have absolutely nothing to sell. Whether you do it or not its ur choice. But you are allowed to sell. If you dont know how to do it its ur fault.
ffs...are you stupid or just pretend to be?
I don't need your advice for myself, I am trying to explain what is happening TO PEOPLE in this game.
And why the system is not working.
I am in 2 of the best trade guilds in the game on my server if not the best and im telling you how average people can keep a place in guilds like that even when they have nothing to sell and without having to donate their own guild.
They can't trade. There's only 500 spots per guild, and only a few good spots in the game, most of them are taken up with the same accounts or even the same people on multiple accounts. So that's probably like max 1000 people in this game who can trade. See the problem yet or you going to repeat yourself yet again while missing the point?
And stop telling ME how to do stuff. I'm talking about things in the abstract.0 -
Merkabeh✭✭✭I despise this games trade system.
I belong to 2 trade guilds, neither premier guilds. If, big if, they get kiosks, they are secondary at best.
I'm a person who just wants to dump my inventory, when it fills up with semi valuable gear, so I'm pricing low and not getting greedy; just want better then vendor prices.
I apologize, I sometimes struggle to fully express my thoughts when typing on my phone, so this may be missing pieces. In summary, trade system in ESO is ***, and an AH would be much better for the vast majority of players; unless ZOS wants to fully commit to a fractured location based economy, in which case, I suggest they start playing EvE and figure out exactly why that system works (all aspects) and get ready to do the massive work to incorporate those concepts into this game. A half assed solution just doesn't work.
Yeah, I'm fully in the same category of sellers as you. I dont tend to have the same problems though, drop your current guilds and get ones with more regular access to traders imo.
I would be interested to see ESO take some queues from EVE tho.
When I first heard of ESO, years before launch, I thought it would fit EvE style perfectly. However, that would alienate tons of players.
1. EvE's economy works because of open world pvp.
2. EvE's economy works because you can destroy/loot other people's shinies.
3. EvE's economy works because many importamt resources are scarce and controlled, so market doesn't flood as easily from farmers.
4. EvE's economy works because logistics is a factor; travel is necessary and dangerous.
5. EvE's economy works because intangible concepts can be sold through contracts (formal and informal; the former being transportation contracts, the later being player agreed contracts outside of game mechanics). ESO is not complex enough to support informal contacts excluding pays for runs, etc; and formal contracts are a non issue, because of near instant and safe transport options.
6. EvE's economy works because of Buy Orders; this helps stabilize market prices.
I thought all of those concepts would work great in TES universe. But carebears hate losing their shinies and unilateral PvP.
I seriously would be back on EvE if space boat combat was more engaging; because every other aspect is superior to ESO. Some ESO is closer on; I like exploration in ESO, but it isn't as grand as EvE (size wise, ESO is better environment wise I think). PvP is better in EvE, lowsec and nullsec are great; evonomic PvP is better in EvE; however combat in EvE is boring, ESO has the edge there. Corporations and alliances are superior to guilds in ESO (size and complexity are both better).
But I digress. I still love ESO; it justs I think it could have been much better than it turned out (at the expense of a more niche audience, which is why I understand the decision not to go that route, but then don't put in half assed systems like guild kiosks; just stick to tried and true).Crusader of The Knights of the Alessian Order
Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" - Sallington
#CommunicationEquality0 -
FoolishHuman✭✭✭✭✭FoolishHuman wrote: »Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
Literally anyone who wants to get into a trade guild can. People who just want to sell a few things every week dont belong in Blackbriar Barter Co. or any of the serious guilds, but there are still guilds with kiosks for every level of seller.
I agree with you 100% though that the bidding system needs to be improved to reduce volatility. GL getting ZoS to actually do that, but its better to be right and ineffectual than wrong and ineffectual I guess.
I don't see why it's okay to make it so some people can't be exposed to the market to sell their goods, when they might have the same items to sell as the ones who can get to a wider market, just fewer of them or less often or whatever their limiting factor is.
All players should be able to reach the same market equally, right now not only are some markets less trafficked, but some people don't even have a market to sell in at all.
Imagine if all the items looted in the game, all of them get to be on the market. What do you think the prices are gonna look like after a week?
Okay so you're saying it's intended that many people aren't allowed to trade. So only some people are allowed to make money in this game.
Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
I don't know why you are having such problems getting into a trading guild. Maybe this is a problem only on the NA servers? I'm a pretty casual player and can still sell my stuff in rawl'kha for only 2k fees a week. Everyone can afford that.Edited by FoolishHuman on September 18, 2017 3:04PM0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »(...)
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
A ) Now I kinda want to keep that one on the side, but since you mention economics, perhaps you are aware that another game hired an actual economist to help with their in-game trading system - suffice to say that it's open and easily accessed by everyone from everywhere. It's funny how the tune there is much different also in regards to proving the monopoly conspiracies.
B ) I can't help but feel that the above example is a great one against your argument. The system was fundamentally changed against their initial "vision" for the game, not because of lore - but simply to make sure people can play together and have fun.
At the end of the day that is the only thing I personally care for. Not an economy simulator (because excel-spreadsheet online already exists) but a fun game. Trading is a part of that and should be fun as well and not an exercise in frustration and alt-tabbing out of the game.
Anyways, the fun part is subjective and at the end of the day this does not make or break a game for me.
(Edit: B ) without the space in between is a smily ...)
@Rouven
I'm going to write this again from my original comment.... "It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good". "
What another developer did doesn't prove what this developer is doing as right or wrong, it only provides that different development strategies exist for different developers in two completely different games. That proves nothing in terms of "good" or right and wrong.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf "true economy"? In what book i ask? You find a system in which no matter how populated server is and no matter how many trading guilds there are on the server as good for MMO?
edit tags out
Its not just one book but if you're asking a serious question....
Look at concepts or ideas studied and presented around Emile Durkheim, Karl Marx and Max Weber. While my studies were around how their ideas have impacts in the workplace, the foundation of their ideas typically identify things like capitalism and leads to different behaviors and control methods that impact the economies during different times, but even relevant in todays economies.
edit tags out
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on September 18, 2017 3:08PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
CrazyCleatus✭✭✭FloppyTouch wrote: »CrazyCleatus wrote: »Don't know what everyone has against auction houses. I made a lot of money in WoW starting with absolutely nothing on two different servers, each with different economies. I would start by buying and reselling stacks of cotton, and eventually worked my way up to buying and reselling high priced items.
It was actually a really fun process. The trading system in this game is pretty bogus compared to it, especially being on console, which makes searches insanely clunky. I also hate having to travel everywhere to find good deals. I'd waaaaaay rather it all be in one convenient place.
This current system is also awful for new guilds who can't afford the ridiculous bidding prices. Everyone should have equal opportunity to sell their goods.
And for everyone yelling "monopoly, monopoly, monopoly," in my years of playing WoW, they never stopped me from making it rich.
The only ppl against it are the ones running it and making it hard for any new guild to get in. They are also the people that are making insane profit by buying the low end traders stuff and reselling it in the prime areas. They don't want an AH bc this will be taken away from them.
With a central auction house three or four people could easily control the market on rare items. You think power traders are making insane profit now it is a drop in the bucket compared to what a few people can do with an auction house.
The auction house fear mongering from some players in this game is ridiculous.
3 or 4 no lifers playing the AH doesnt mean no one else can make money. I've done it on 2 separate WoW servers literally starting with nothing, and I only needed to spend 30 mins to an hour a day doing my flips.
With this current system (and being on console), I'd have to spend at least an hour just travelling around and using the crappy search function... And I still probably wouldn't find anything.Edited by CrazyCleatus on September 18, 2017 3:16PM2 -
FoolishHuman✭✭✭✭✭A ) Now I kinda want to keep that one on the side, but since you mention economics, perhaps you are aware that another game hired an actual economist to help with their in-game trading system - suffice to say that it's open and easily accessed by everyone from everywhere. It's funny how the tune there is much different also in regards to proving the monopoly conspiracies.
The game you are talking about. I left that game when people found a good spot to get items and the trading post barons, the richest traders that had an ear with this economist, demanded that this be removed because it was hurting their profits. One patch later this farming spot was nerfed into oblivion. That game died for me with that incident.1 -
Jamini✭✭✭✭✭They can't trade. There's only 500 spots per guild, and only a few good spots in the game, most of them are taken up with the same accounts or even the same people on multiple accounts. So that's probably like max 1000 people in this game who can trade. See the problem yet or you going to repeat yourself yet again while missing the point?
And stop telling ME how to do stuff. I'm talking about things in the abstract.
Just checked, my current (mournhold) trade guild has ten slots unused.
Also, multiple accounts for trading is an absolutely tiny percentage of the population. It's most certainly not covering the 10,000+ prime account spots per server. (Elden Root, Wayrest, and Mournhold all have over five traders. Rawl had four, Craiglorn has five or six if I remember right). Let's also not forget about second-tier spots like VG, Davon's Watch, Maburk, Shornhelm, and Daggerfall!
Go find a proper trade guild and stop complaining. There are many of them out there, and they WANT people selling."Adapt. or Die."0 -
Rouven✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »(...)
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
A ) Now I kinda want to keep that one on the side, but since you mention economics, perhaps you are aware that another game hired an actual economist to help with their in-game trading system - suffice to say that it's open and easily accessed by everyone from everywhere. It's funny how the tune there is much different also in regards to proving the monopoly conspiracies.
B ) I can't help but feel that the above example is a great one against your argument. The system was fundamentally changed against their initial "vision" for the game, not because of lore - but simply to make sure people can play together and have fun.
At the end of the day that is the only thing I personally care for. Not an economy simulator (because excel-spreadsheet online already exists) but a fun game. Trading is a part of that and should be fun as well and not an exercise in frustration and alt-tabbing out of the game.
Anyways, the fun part is subjective and at the end of the day this does not make or break a game for me.
(Edit: B ) without the space in between is a smily ...)
@Rouven
I'm going to write this again from my original comment.... "It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good". "
What another developer did doesn't prove what this developer is doing as right or wrong, it only provides that different development strategies exist for different developers in two completely different games. That proves nothing in terms of "good" or right and wrong.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf "true economy"? In what book i ask? You find a system in which no matter how populated server is and no matter how many trading guilds there are on the server as good for MMO?
edit tags out
Its not just one book but if you're asking a serious question....
Look at concepts or ideas studied and presented around Emile Durkheim, Karl Marx and Max Weber. While my studies were around how their ideas have impacts in the workplace, the foundation of their ideas typically identify things like capitalism and leads to different behaviors and control methods that impact the economies during different times, but even relevant in todays economies.
edit tags out
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
It appears to me that we potentially should focus more about explaining why we think our (own) ideas are good instead of trying to dismiss other people's ideas or bring examples of why the developers think more along "your" lines than along "the others" because of this and that.
Meh, I'm sure Freud would have some ideas here on why we are doing this.
Again.Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. ~ Terry Pratchett0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭On a separate comment from my first......
The larger issue is this idea that there are X number of players looking to buy Y items.
Its being assumed that buyers are unable to find items and that is a result of sellers being unable to list items for sale.
The reality is, from this games design, anyone can obtain anything with a few adjustments to their characters skill points and they desired behaviors.
All of that to say.....
If its actually true that there are hundreds of thousands of buyers and sellers each week being denied, how have you (each one of you) determined that its a direct result of traders? And then, based on how you've made this determination, excluding what another game is doing, how did you go about confirming your comment is the best solution for all of those not buying and selling as well as those who are buying and selling?
I think regardless of how any of us feels on this topic, the above is something each idea must challenge itself to explore OUTSIDE OF WHAT ANY OTHER GAME OR DEVELOPER IS OR HAS DONE as that is technically outside of any merit to what should happen if its any change that may occur to this game.
Long term, lets also consider, if another game changes....does the change you desire today suffice for a new experience from another game or developer that is influencing your current idea today.
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on September 18, 2017 3:22PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FloppyTouch wrote: »The only ppl against it are the ones running it and making it hard for any new guild to get in. They are also the people that are making insane profit by buying the low end traders stuff and reselling it in the prime areas. They don't want an AH bc this will be taken away from them.
I am against it and I don't run any trading guilds.
How do you explain the 4 social guilds I am in that regularly get Kiosks? Three of them have the same kiosk most weeks if not every week. These are in no way Trading Guilds, they do not charge a fee for being in the guild, and do not drain the bank each week with bids. One of the guilds I am in is a small guild, with maybe 4 people active each day, and we sometimes get Prime locations like Rawkla, but that is more luck than any repeatable strategy.
I can move all the product I want to at any of the kiosks we have traders at.
Anyone can buy low and sell high, they do not have to be in a certain trading guild for that.
And, you don't need to have a trading guild in prime locations to move things efficiently.
Learn to work with the existing system and you can make enough gold to suit your purposes.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"4 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »(...)
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
A ) Now I kinda want to keep that one on the side, but since you mention economics, perhaps you are aware that another game hired an actual economist to help with their in-game trading system - suffice to say that it's open and easily accessed by everyone from everywhere. It's funny how the tune there is much different also in regards to proving the monopoly conspiracies.
B ) I can't help but feel that the above example is a great one against your argument. The system was fundamentally changed against their initial "vision" for the game, not because of lore - but simply to make sure people can play together and have fun.
At the end of the day that is the only thing I personally care for. Not an economy simulator (because excel-spreadsheet online already exists) but a fun game. Trading is a part of that and should be fun as well and not an exercise in frustration and alt-tabbing out of the game.
Anyways, the fun part is subjective and at the end of the day this does not make or break a game for me.
(Edit: B ) without the space in between is a smily ...)
@Rouven
I'm going to write this again from my original comment.... "It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good". "
What another developer did doesn't prove what this developer is doing as right or wrong, it only provides that different development strategies exist for different developers in two completely different games. That proves nothing in terms of "good" or right and wrong.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »@NewBlacksmurf "true economy"? In what book i ask? You find a system in which no matter how populated server is and no matter how many trading guilds there are on the server as good for MMO?
edit tags out
Its not just one book but if you're asking a serious question....
Look at concepts or ideas studied and presented around Emile Durkheim, Karl Marx and Max Weber. While my studies were around how their ideas have impacts in the workplace, the foundation of their ideas typically identify things like capitalism and leads to different behaviors and control methods that impact the economies during different times, but even relevant in todays economies.
edit tags out
It appears as I wrote above that you have your own ideas about "what good is" and while each of us hold our own ideas, it doesn't mean that our thoughts are actually "good".
More important, the developers intent on the design of the game is also influenced by lore, therefore the idea of "good" or our ideas of "good" isn't a strategy or intent due to what makes sense in this time and space.
Consider why the factions exist, what the war impacts can cause as well as what they have caused. Consider while there are factions, players cross over but in the original design, factions were to be account locked. With all these understandings, "good" is relative but player behavior is very open and possible so it seems that this existence is accurate which one could argue is "better" than many ideas of what "good" should be in this topic as well as others on this forum.
It appears to me that we potentially should focus more about explaining why we think our (own) ideas are good instead of trying to dismiss other people's ideas or bring examples of why the developers think more along "your" lines than along "the others" because of this and that.
Meh, I'm sure Freud would have some ideas here on why we are doing this.
Again.
@Rouven
Sorry if by me explaining why my idea is worth thinking about causes you or anyone else to feel that I'm focusing on trying dismiss you or their idea. While that is not my intent, it appears that is a direct result of thinking and looking at this topic from one or multiple points of view.
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on September 18, 2017 3:25PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This happens because there are extremely wealthy trading guilds that can afford to jack up prices. If you think that's bad, you won't like an auction house because that makes it much easier for those with lots of gold to do exactly what they're doing now.
The current guild trader kiosk system is the only thing that keeps monopolies in check.
LMAO. What are you talking about? The trader kiosk system creates monopolies and keeps them in power. An Auction House is a free for all where each individual has the opportunity to post, sell and buy items. The Auction House has issues with inflation of item prices and thats about it.
There is constant talk of Shell Guilds outbidding other real guilds for key locations only to "disappear" and let the guild that owns the shell guild take its spot. You dont get shell guilds without monopolies. Guilds rich enough and with enough buying power they can not only bid once but twice on a single location.Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on September 18, 2017 3:49PMPenniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax3 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What part do you not understand?Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
You can be in the best trade guild in the game and keep ur place in it by selling a few things every so often. No one is forcing you to farm sh*t 24/7 and selling millions to keep ur place in it.
Just because they havent learnt how to trade it doesnt mean they are not allowed to trade.
Your average player will not be in the best trade guild in the game, they require more than the average player can sell. And you can be in a great trade guild and still find yourself with no trader and nowhere to sell, what part of that do you not understand.
You can be in multiple guilds. If none of them get a trader for consecutive weeks then they are not as great as you think they are and its time for you to change.
Average players can most certainly keep a place in the best trading guilds. The best trade guilds do not require astronomical selling prices. You can go and buy 10 tempers and just resell them. No profit, no loss. They will still be listed as things u sold in the guild and cover the requirments for the week.
There you go, i just told you how to keep a place in the best trade guilds in 20 minutes every week. Like i said, just because you or some other people dont know how to trade, it doesnt mean you are not allowed to.
LMAO.
That's probably all those big trade guilds are doing...buying *** off each other and reselling it all to each other for no profit. Yeah this system works :rolleyes:
Meanwhile people who actually want to trade whatever can't because the big trade guilds are filled with stuff that's getting resold for same price to the other big trade guilds, and back and forth.
Are you stupid or do you just pretend to be?
It doesnt matter what the other people do genius. Yeah other people in those guilds make millions of profit every week. They are not average players selling a few things every so often. Just because they do it, it doesnt mean that you have to do it as well.
I am telling you what you can do to keep ur place in those guilds even if you have absolutely nothing to sell. Whether you do it or not its ur choice. But you are allowed to sell. If you dont know how to do it its ur fault.
ffs...are you stupid or just pretend to be?
I don't need your advice for myself, I am trying to explain what is happening TO PEOPLE in this game.
And why the system is not working.
I am in 2 of the best trade guilds in the game on my server if not the best and im telling you how average people can keep a place in guilds like that even when they have nothing to sell and without having to donate their own guild.
They can't trade. There's only 500 spots per guild, and only a few good spots in the game, most of them are taken up with the same accounts or even the same people on multiple accounts. So that's probably like max 1000 people in this game who can trade. See the problem yet or you going to repeat yourself yet again while missing the point?
And stop telling ME how to do stuff. I'm talking about things in the abstract.
Quit this non-sense. You are wrong. Everyone can trade. I can send multiple invites to a couple of trading guilds RIGHT NOW. TODAY. But where are those people who want to trade but can't? In all guilds I see tons of people who are inactive or don't sell/contribute at all. A lot of them are removed every day freeing spots for new members. But where are those new members? I'm trying to replace inactives every day and still can't get rid of all of them.
They can't trade? Please. That's just not correlating with the reality at all. They are more than welcome to trade and there are spots for them RIGHT NOW. But where are they? Guess, you meant to say they don't want to trade?3 -
ThePrinceOfBargains✭✭✭✭✭
✭The current system is trash for multiple reasons and needs to go. There's nothing more annoying than running around like a madman trying to find certain items from all these different traders. It would be even worse without TTC; I feel sorry for console players.
I hate it. I've played several MMOs and trading in this game is the worst by far. It does nothing better and does nothing to do what ZOS claims it does.6 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What part do you not understand?Its as I said, any UI ZoS throws together is probably going to be crap. If ZoS gave us and Console all an Auction House you probably wouldn't be able to search that either.
ZOS designing a crap UI shouldn't be cited as the reason that most of the server get denied the opportunity to trade their goods some weeks if not all.
Level of exaggeration exceeding 9000..
Not at all...quite often even serious trade guilds lose their spot leaving members without anywhere to trade, sometimes for weeks in a row. And loads of people can't even get into a serious trade guild, because they just want to sell a few things every so often...so those people aren't allowed to trade at all.
You can be in the best trade guild in the game and keep ur place in it by selling a few things every so often. No one is forcing you to farm sh*t 24/7 and selling millions to keep ur place in it.
Just because they havent learnt how to trade it doesnt mean they are not allowed to trade.
Your average player will not be in the best trade guild in the game, they require more than the average player can sell. And you can be in a great trade guild and still find yourself with no trader and nowhere to sell, what part of that do you not understand.
You can be in multiple guilds. If none of them get a trader for consecutive weeks then they are not as great as you think they are and its time for you to change.
Average players can most certainly keep a place in the best trading guilds. The best trade guilds do not require astronomical selling prices. You can go and buy 10 tempers and just resell them. No profit, no loss. They will still be listed as things u sold in the guild and cover the requirments for the week.
There you go, i just told you how to keep a place in the best trade guilds in 20 minutes every week. Like i said, just because you or some other people dont know how to trade, it doesnt mean you are not allowed to.
LMAO.
That's probably all those big trade guilds are doing...buying *** off each other and reselling it all to each other for no profit. Yeah this system works :rolleyes:
Meanwhile people who actually want to trade whatever can't because the big trade guilds are filled with stuff that's getting resold for same price to the other big trade guilds, and back and forth.
Are you stupid or do you just pretend to be?
It doesnt matter what the other people do genius. Yeah other people in those guilds make millions of profit every week. They are not average players selling a few things every so often. Just because they do it, it doesnt mean that you have to do it as well.
I am telling you what you can do to keep ur place in those guilds even if you have absolutely nothing to sell. Whether you do it or not its ur choice. But you are allowed to sell. If you dont know how to do it its ur fault.
ffs...are you stupid or just pretend to be?
I don't need your advice for myself, I am trying to explain what is happening TO PEOPLE in this game.
And why the system is not working.
I am in 2 of the best trade guilds in the game on my server if not the best and im telling you how average people can keep a place in guilds like that even when they have nothing to sell and without having to donate their own guild.
They can't trade. There's only 500 spots per guild, and only a few good spots in the game, most of them are taken up with the same accounts or even the same people on multiple accounts. So that's probably like max 1000 people in this game who can trade. See the problem yet or you going to repeat yourself yet again while missing the point?
And stop telling ME how to do stuff. I'm talking about things in the abstract.
Yes they can trade. Stating ur biased opinion as a fact doesnt make it an actual fact. On my server there are 5 prime locations with 16500 spots in total. Even if every single one of them was in 5 of those guilds you still end up with 3k+ . Thats a hell of a lot more than 1k even when u assume an unrealistic scenario of everyone being in 5 of those trade guilds.
I am in 2 of those guilds. They always look for people. They are not average guilds. They always actively look for people that can sell so they can keep their spot. Thats what makes them great guilds in the first place. Those guilds never have an abundance of good sellers. I see them looking for people in zones every few days. I see in guild chat every day when they welcome new players. Even if the guilds were full and someone wanted to get in such a guild then contacting the GM can get you a place in the guild cause most likely someone will be inactive or doesnt meet the requierments for the guild and u can get his place. Or they will get you a place in another guild of their "alliance" that also has a trader in a prime location.
And if the issue is no room for more people to join guilds then u can increase the capacity to 600 for example. Not redesign the entire system.1 -
Jamini✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »The trader kiosk system creates monopolies and keeps them in power.
To Paraphrase a conversation I had LAST NIGHT
Friend : "Aw damn, my guild lost their trader this week."
Me: "Oh? That's unusual. Who did it?"
Friend: "[X Trade guild] took the spot. That's weird, they've had their own mournhold spot for a while
Me: "Oh, I think [Trade guild I am in] took that spot. They had another guild trying to push them out for a few weeks and moved tonight. I wouldn't be too worried, [Friend's trade guild] normally has a pretty big war chest for bidding wars"
Friend: "Ah, okay. That makes sense. We'll kick them out next week. NP."
This is not the face of a monopoly.Edited by Jamini on September 18, 2017 4:02PM"Adapt. or Die."5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CrazyCleatus wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »CrazyCleatus wrote: »Don't know what everyone has against auction houses. I made a lot of money in WoW starting with absolutely nothing on two different servers, each with different economies. I would start by buying and reselling stacks of cotton, and eventually worked my way up to buying and reselling high priced items.
It was actually a really fun process. The trading system in this game is pretty bogus compared to it, especially being on console, which makes searches insanely clunky. I also hate having to travel everywhere to find good deals. I'd waaaaaay rather it all be in one convenient place.
This current system is also awful for new guilds who can't afford the ridiculous bidding prices. Everyone should have equal opportunity to sell their goods.
And for everyone yelling "monopoly, monopoly, monopoly," in my years of playing WoW, they never stopped me from making it rich.
The only ppl against it are the ones running it and making it hard for any new guild to get in. They are also the people that are making insane profit by buying the low end traders stuff and reselling it in the prime areas. They don't want an AH bc this will be taken away from them.
With a central auction house three or four people could easily control the market on rare items. You think power traders are making insane profit now it is a drop in the bucket compared to what a few people can do with an auction house.
The auction house fear mongering from some players in this game is ridiculous.
3 or 4 no lifers playing the AH doesnt mean no one else can make money. I've done it on 2 separate WoW servers literally starting with nothing, and I only needed to spend 30 mins to an hour a day doing my flips.
With this current system (and being on console), I'd have to spend at least an hour just travelling around and using the crappy search function... And I still probably wouldn't find anything.
Actually spending 30 minutes to an hour every day in this game with the purpose of making money is more than enough to become a millionaire. So i guess it works.0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This happens because there are extremely wealthy trading guilds that can afford to jack up prices. If you think that's bad, you won't like an auction house because that makes it much easier for those with lots of gold to do exactly what they're doing now.
The current guild trader kiosk system is the only thing that keeps monopolies in check.
Atleast an Auction house gives fair game to the entire game3 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CrazyCleatus wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »CrazyCleatus wrote: »Don't know what everyone has against auction houses. I made a lot of money in WoW starting with absolutely nothing on two different servers, each with different economies. I would start by buying and reselling stacks of cotton, and eventually worked my way up to buying and reselling high priced items.
It was actually a really fun process. The trading system in this game is pretty bogus compared to it, especially being on console, which makes searches insanely clunky. I also hate having to travel everywhere to find good deals. I'd waaaaaay rather it all be in one convenient place.
This current system is also awful for new guilds who can't afford the ridiculous bidding prices. Everyone should have equal opportunity to sell their goods.
And for everyone yelling "monopoly, monopoly, monopoly," in my years of playing WoW, they never stopped me from making it rich.
The only ppl against it are the ones running it and making it hard for any new guild to get in. They are also the people that are making insane profit by buying the low end traders stuff and reselling it in the prime areas. They don't want an AH bc this will be taken away from them.
With a central auction house three or four people could easily control the market on rare items. You think power traders are making insane profit now it is a drop in the bucket compared to what a few people can do with an auction house.
The auction house fear mongering from some players in this game is ridiculous.
3 or 4 no lifers playing the AH doesnt mean no one else can make money. I've done it on 2 separate WoW servers literally starting with nothing, and I only needed to spend 30 mins to an hour a day doing my flips.
With this current system (and being on console), I'd have to spend at least an hour just travelling around and using the crappy search function... And I still probably wouldn't find anything.
You are ignoring my point. I didn't claim you can't make money in an auction house. I am telling you three or four players can control rare items. No they can't stop you from selling rubidite ore and making good money. What they can do is completely control Perfect Roe. They could easily control any rare drop they want.
You can make quite a bit of gold in this game simply selling in zone chat. So it isn't about whether the average player can make gold or not. It is about keeping a small number of people from getting a monopoly on rare items. This isn't fear mongering it is simply telling you the truth. It happens in WoW and in fact it doesn't take long in forums dedicated to WoW to find several people complaining about one or two players monopolizing rare drops.
I do think there should be an intuitive search feature inside the trader menu. That would help quite a bit.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
misfitmanic✭✭✭and thats fantastic for all of us normies who occasionally see daylight.
No, it's not. It means most members of the server can't sell their goods most of the time, when their guilds can't afford to get a spot or get outbid most weeks because the competition for trader spots is out of control.
An edit to my original statement then, its fantastic for all normies who dont have all 5/5 of their guild slots filled with RP Khajiit *** guilds. Not all guilds are competitive and thats ok, because its as easy as falling over to get into one of the competitive guilds.
You obviously don't know what's happening in the game servers...the competitive guilds are having problems with other competition...this is not about the RP guilds, the problem is happening to actual trade guilds.
The system is broken, time for an auction house. Sick of trade not working some weeks.
The trade guild I joined over a year ago has never once lost it's vendor location. The larger trade guild I joined before that (and am still a member of) lost trader at least 3 times over that same period of time.
I have remained a member of both guilds by simply selling stuff I loot during my ~12 hours of game time each week.
Nobody forces you to be a member of a lame guild. If you are unhappy with the experience you are having in a guild, simply try another (perhaps with better management) as you will get farther that way than coming here and demanding the core game be changed to fit YOUR preferred play-style. If you are struggling to run a guild, ask for advice and tips. ESO has a huge, helpful, community full of players simply trying to maximize the benefits of their gameplay.
My only complaint to the current system is the lack of search/sort features. Would love to see things like Master Merchant and Awesome Guild Store added to the native client, which would significantly enhance the experience for all.1 -
I love the.current system but would far rather the kiosks where bidded upon and you held them for a few month.
Would be.more akin to.swgs shop.system then and people.could return for.more business knowing fine.well the.stores still going to be there.0 -
Huyen✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS needs to bite the bullet and admit their little trading experiment failed. Time for an auction house.
You know a trading system is broken when people can't actually afford to sell their items!
Well, seems the whole economy of the world is broken then, seeing a lot of stores going out of business because the rent-prices are to high. To narrow it down: your argument doesnt make enough sense.Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)
"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh1 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭At least if they dump the guild traders I won't have to spend time wondering if my donation actually went into the guild bank anymore. That is worth it to me.Edited by vyndral13preub18_ESO on September 18, 2017 4:32PM0 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »The trader kiosk system creates monopolies and keeps them in power.
To Paraphrase a conversation I had LAST NIGHT
Friend : "Aw damn, my guild lost their trader this week."
Me: "Oh? That's unusual. Who did it?"
Friend: "[X Trade guild] took the spot. That's weird, they've had their own mournhold spot for a while
Me: "Oh, I think [Trade guild I am in] took that spot. They had another guild trying to push them out for a few weeks and moved tonight. I wouldn't be too worried, [Friend's trade guild] normally has a pretty big war chest for bidding wars"
Friend: "Ah, okay. That makes sense. We'll kick them out next week. NP."
This is not the face of a monopoly.
Welp, we can all go home now everyone. Jamini had a conversation with their friend. All is good and safe in the world.Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on September 18, 2017 4:54PMPenniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax3