SanTii.92 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Wardens are borderline OP in PvP, that tree ultimate is just out of control. Completely out of control

As someone with extensive pvp play with magwardens i could agree with that statement, but mainly cause of a couple over the top mechanics, which most definetly should be addressed. Most importantly, yes you've guessed it.

• Trees ulti. This is as you said completly out of control. Uptimes are insane, and provides far too much healing for its cost (as defensive ults generally tend to). Cost should be increased to 100-125, and Enchanted Forest just reworked. There is no need whatsoever for a low cost ult's morph to also contribute to higher uptimes, and even less so when both morphs serve for pretty much the same purpose. Enchanted forest should instead provide offensive buffs.
• Secondly Shimmering Shield is just such a hard counter to range class it's actually pretty ridiculous. Not to mention the sustain and ult regen it provides on top of that. Hard counters are never healthy mechanics, and shimmering is one of the worse offenders. Honestly im not sure what i would do here but something should.

Yes, we are in agreement there it is due to a few select skills of their's, but also their burst damage and tankiness. I am also pretty experienced in PvP and in my opinion there are absolutely aspects to both stamden and magden that are either OP or borderline OP in PvP.

In PvE, I don't see why it matters, some classes are just going to be better at sustained dps than others, there's no reason why they all need to be equal.

I swear to God you guys just follow me and claim everything is OP

Leave one alone, you can nerf either sorc or Warden, but not both

So much wrong in this thread. mWarden has still less burst than a mSorc in comparable setups (no execute) while being more predictable, less mobile and highly dependant on defensive ults to survive pressure being locked down by snares & immovables.

sWarden on the other hand has access to viable executes, is more mobile and less dependant on def ults. I think you people have to differentiate more between those two. There is some very excellent players twinking mWardens, but... have you ever met a sub-average mWarden? He will die just as fast as a nightblade.

What exactly are the arguments for mWarden being "insanely OP" in PvP besides vague strawmens like "so many tools", "very tanky" and simply wrong statements like "highest burst in the game".

I'm far too tired of arguing against endless amount of scubs trying to talk balance. Hopefully devs recognize how delusional some of the posters in this thread are.

If anyone feels offended and wants to illustrate me the OPness of magWarden and my lack of understanding, please contact me on PC EU. I'm more than happy have some fights against your uber-OP-class that might change your opinion. If you don't main a mWarden, why are you even posting here?

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

Bow/bow stam warden has the same DPS ceiling as magwarden, because they rely pretty much on same passives and skills. If you got some compliment for it, it is more because your dps was enough for that content or they were not expecting it to be that high from bow It is still 20% worse than DW/bow stam warden. When talking numbers, you are looking at ~32-33k DPS on 3M dummy with bear and vma bow.

Are you sure its the same? The snipe ability alone hits harder than any magicka warden ability. You weave Snipe, la, bird, la, poison injection and the damage is pretty good. and for pve add the hail of arrows. If it is a little weaker than the best cookie cutter build, i dont care, id rather have fun than be a sheep

Well, something hitting hard does not really translate to something being effective at damage. But to be more precise, I am sure of what is bow/bow warden capable of. I am not sure of what is magWarden capable of, but I am going by what people report they are capable of (in pve) and what I experience fighting them (in pvp). It is pretty much the same thing, but the best magwarden should beat best bow warden both in pve and pvp

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

Bow/bow stam warden has the same DPS ceiling as magwarden, because they rely pretty much on same passives and skills. If you got some compliment for it, it is more because your dps was enough for that content or they were not expecting it to be that high from bow It is still 20% worse than DW/bow stam warden. When talking numbers, you are looking at ~32-33k DPS on 3M dummy with bear and vma bow.

Are you sure its the same? The snipe ability alone hits harder than any magicka warden ability. You weave Snipe, la, bird, la, poison injection and the damage is pretty good. and for pve add the hail of arrows. If it is a little weaker than the best cookie cutter build, i dont care, id rather have fun than be a sheep

Well, something hitting hard does not really translate to something being effective at damage. But to be more precise, I am sure of what is bow/bow warden capable of. I am not sure of what is magWarden capable of, but I am going by what people report they are capable of (in pve) and what I experience fighting them (in pvp). It is pretty much the same thing, but the best magwarden should beat best bow warden both in pve and pvp

Believe what you want, Ill believe what I can do over what others say I can do every time. I will never, and have never followed the herd.

It is not about believing or following herd The limitations are set in stone and you cant believe past them. That's the problem with magwarden or bowarden (bow anything rly) in PVE, you cannot supplement what the class lacks by playing it better.

Waffennacht wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So much wrong in this thread. mWarden has still less burst than a mSorc in comparable setups (no execute) while being more predictable, less mobile and highly dependant on defensive ults to survive pressure being locked down by snares & immovables.

sWarden on the other hand has access to viable executes, is more mobile and less dependant on def ults. I think you people have to differentiate more between those two. There is some very excellent players twinking mWardens, but... have you ever met a sub-average mWarden? He will die just as fast as a nightblade.

What exactly are the arguments for mWarden being "insanely OP" in PvP besides vague strawmens like "so many tools", "very tanky" and simply wrong statements like "highest burst in the game".

I'm far too tired of arguing against endless amount of scubs trying to talk balance. Hopefully devs recognize how delusional some of the posters in this thread are.

If anyone feels offended and wants to illustrate me the OPness of magWarden and my lack of understanding, please contact me on PC EU. I'm more than happy have some fights against your uber-OP-class that might change your opinion. If you don't main a mWarden, why are you even posting here?

Damn. Wish you were na.

But yeah, Wardens definitely outburst sorcs or nbs. Infection into fissure, racer, and shock/soul assault does.

SA + Fissure
SA + Curse
Both are good, and both gets you hate mail

But that's because soul assault is a scrubby one button wonder tool for zerglings, and completely unrelated to magwarden's ability to perform in pvp.

Well, when you have an ability that can hit for up to 8k damage on someone with a lot of resistances in No CP, that is spammable, and undodgeable, it is OP. Even in CP, it sometimes still hits up to 6k. And when you have players spamming that...

I think we need to rethink a lot of the Warden's skills. There are many ways we can make them better.

I like what Thogard says here

Thogard wrote: »

We need to buff a magwarden's dots and ground targets, but fissure and birds needs their dmg toned down. That kind of burst shouldn't be possible on a class with such good healing and sustain passives.

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

Bow/bow stam warden has the same DPS ceiling as magwarden, because they rely pretty much on same passives and skills. If you got some compliment for it, it is more because your dps was enough for that content or they were not expecting it to be that high from bow It is still 20% worse than DW/bow stam warden. When talking numbers, you are looking at ~32-33k DPS on 3M dummy with bear and vma bow.

Are you sure its the same? The snipe ability alone hits harder than any magicka warden ability. You weave Snipe, la, bird, la, poison injection and the damage is pretty good. and for pve add the hail of arrows. If it is a little weaker than the best cookie cutter build, i dont care, id rather have fun than be a sheep

Well, something hitting hard does not really translate to something being effective at damage. But to be more precise, I am sure of what is bow/bow warden capable of. I am not sure of what is magWarden capable of, but I am going by what people report they are capable of (in pve) and what I experience fighting them (in pvp). It is pretty much the same thing, but the best magwarden should beat best bow warden both in pve and pvp

Believe what you want, Ill believe what I can do over what others say I can do every time. I will never, and have never followed the herd.

It is not about believing or following herd The limitations are set in stone and you cant believe past them. That's the problem with magwarden or bowarden (bow anything rly) in PVE, you cannot supplement what the class lacks by playing it better.

You can supplement it with certain sets though to go over those limitations. I wont say what sets I am using, but my damage, even at 39 is sky high. I can only imagine how good it will be when I have proper gold cp 160 gear when I hit cp 660 ( only cp 283 atm ) If you love a build, you make it work, regardless of the nay sayers

Post numbers. Saying your damage is "sky high" is pure conjecture

This was from blessed meridia.



This was from Shuffle.

Maikon wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

Good thing then that PvP and PvE rely on different types of damage.

Warden has high burst damage, which is useless in PvE. So just buff their DoTs, which are useless in PvP.

Or just make cliff racer dodgeable (that's the only thing that makes them "OP" in PvP).

Are you still going on about this? Get a clue. Cliff Racer is dodgeable, from several different sources. But since dodge roll isan't one of them, everyone still cries about it.

I never said magicka warden was OP in PvP (they suck there too, as you can see from PvP leader boards). I was just giving a suggestion to the whiners. If ZOS doesn't want to buff PvE DPS because kids will cry that they're OP, I'd rather they just make cliff racer dodgeable (but with a faster cast or something).

@MLGProPlayer

You obviously didn't read my comment about the specific part of your post, because Cliff Racer IS *** DODGEABLE.

No you can not dodge it. You can block it.

Yes, you can dodge it. Don't speak unless you know what you are talking about. I have plenty of video and SS to show it was dodged by different abilities.

When people say dodge they mean dodge roll. It is pretty obvious and going around that does not make your argument any better. Also AFAIK shuffle cant dodge it either (and while I am willing to update my knowledge on this part, static screenshot of addon combat log just wont do)

Btw Meridia is miss, not dodge. It is something that is making you not hit, not the target dodging your attacks

.

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

Good thing then that PvP and PvE rely on different types of damage.

Warden has high burst damage, which is useless in PvE. So just buff their DoTs, which are useless in PvP.

Or just make cliff racer dodgeable (that's the only thing that makes them "OP" in PvP).

Are you still going on about this? Get a clue. Cliff Racer is dodgeable, from several different sources. But since dodge roll isan't one of them, everyone still cries about it.

I never said magicka warden was OP in PvP (they suck there too, as you can see from PvP leader boards). I was just giving a suggestion to the whiners. If ZOS doesn't want to buff PvE DPS because kids will cry that they're OP, I'd rather they just make cliff racer dodgeable (but with a faster cast or something).

@MLGProPlayer

You obviously didn't read my comment about the specific part of your post, because Cliff Racer IS *** DODGEABLE.

Did they change it recently? I don't PvP.

If so, all the more reason to buff their DoT damage...

Evasion and Cloak work against it.

Hist Bark and Blessed Meridia Sets also work.

You ever try to fight someone wearing Blessed Meridia as a magwarden, you do literally 0 damage. It's a *** joke.

Evasion dones't work against Dive, so Hist Bark doest work too (unless it is bugged, didnt tested)

Cloak isn't dodge mechanic, totally diferent thing

Blessed Meridia set .

(2 items) Adds 2975 Physical Resistance

(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery

(4 items) Adds 2975 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you block an attack, you have a 33% chance to blind your attacker, causing them to miss all of their attacks for 5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Again, it is not a dodge mechanic.

Conclusion: Dive is an undodgeable skill

laced wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

Bow/bow stam warden has the same DPS ceiling as magwarden, because they rely pretty much on same passives and skills. If you got some compliment for it, it is more because your dps was enough for that content or they were not expecting it to be that high from bow It is still 20% worse than DW/bow stam warden. When talking numbers, you are looking at ~32-33k DPS on 3M dummy with bear and vma bow.

Are you sure its the same? The snipe ability alone hits harder than any magicka warden ability. You weave Snipe, la, bird, la, poison injection and the damage is pretty good. and for pve add the hail of arrows. If it is a little weaker than the best cookie cutter build, i dont care, id rather have fun than be a sheep

Well, something hitting hard does not really translate to something being effective at damage. But to be more precise, I am sure of what is bow/bow warden capable of. I am not sure of what is magWarden capable of, but I am going by what people report they are capable of (in pve) and what I experience fighting them (in pvp). It is pretty much the same thing, but the best magwarden should beat best bow warden both in pve and pvp

Believe what you want, Ill believe what I can do over what others say I can do every time. I will never, and have never followed the herd.

It is not about believing or following herd The limitations are set in stone and you cant believe past them. That's the problem with magwarden or bowarden (bow anything rly) in PVE, you cannot supplement what the class lacks by playing it better.

You can supplement it with certain sets though to go over those limitations. I wont say what sets I am using, but my damage, even at 39 is sky high. I can only imagine how good it will be when I have proper gold cp 160 gear when I hit cp 660 ( only cp 283 atm ) If you love a build, you make it work, regardless of the nay sayers

Post numbers. Saying your damage is "sky high" is pure conjecture

As soon as I hit cp levels and have gear for it I will, I dont ever do dps tests usually, I find it pointless, because then people start this nonsensical conversation of " that class is useless " so forth and so on. But when I am not lvl 40 I will to appease.

God this post is too funny not to respond to

1) Saying your damage is sky high and you haven't hit CP

2) Saying DPS tests are pointless when they clearly do have a point and serve a purpose

3) Proposing that discussing classes' advantages over one another is somehow not productive

And then eventually admitting to be lvl 40. Nothing wrong with it.... just enjoyed the read.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Playing my templar, I just realized that another reason why the warden isn't a viable DPS is that they have no offensive utility skills.

Templar and DK both have skills that provide support to the team in addition to dealing damage. The warden's skill lines are extremely delineated with no "hybrid" skills. Skills either deal damage, heal, or tank. If you're a DPS warden, your skills are 100% damage-oriented. But when your damage is that low, you're not very useful since you bring nothing else to the table.

That's the best. Even nightblade, that looks like total "damage focus" class gives allies minor savagery. Warden literally has nothing for allies but more heal and more resistance.