Please Re-Examine the Presence of Immovable Pots in PVP

Thogard · September 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.

I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.

Alchemist only gives you more damage than a spell power pot if you have under 3k spell damage, otherwise you need a bar slot for major sorcery. Then you need to account for major prophecy or use a bar slot for it. For some classes, with easy native access to these buffs or bar space for toggles, immovable pots can shine.

However, I think a build that's getting 2 skill slots free'd up from sorcery/prophecy and using those slots for good utility can present similar challenges. I could run immovable pots on my mageblade but then I lose a skill slot to get major sorcery and I lose out in 10% crit or a second skill slot I use one of those slots for ele drain which covers enough of my sustain that I drop witchmother for tri-food, being CC immune isn't more beneficial than that sort of utility to a LOT of builds.

Strongly disagree. Against a good (or even average) player, you're going to get hard CCd as soon as immunity expires. Break free counts as an action on the global cool down. Running immov pots will therefore free up 1/6 of your attacks per cycle that you would otherwise spend breaking free. That translates into 16% more DPS, but also gets past any CC interuptions in a burst combo.

It might mean you have to add a skill to your bar (Stam doesn't tho) but it also negates a skill on the enemy's bar and makes them waste a GCD if they don't notice you popped the pot.

PvP isn't about hard numbers though. It's about sustaining until you can burst. And an immov pot is just too powerful because it allows you to know that you won't have a hard CC interupt your burst combo. Playing to to sustain and survive the other 30s while it's on cooldown is easy.

If I had to choose which is cheesier in duels - resource poisons or immov pots - I would say immov pots by a long shot for most players.

Agree to disagree, but I never have a problem dealing with CC from a standpoint of setting up my own burst. A CC during a burst cycle at worst causes you to reset it and at best guarantees your next burst gets off uninterrupted.

Let me put it this way, by your numbers, you spend 5/6 of a fight CC immune so immovable pots only give a 16% maximum possible uptime on their effect. Add to this that unless you're giving up jewelry glyphs then you've got 1/3 uptime on said potion and this means you get the benefits of an immovable pot for only 5.33% of a fight, or less than 4 seconds of a 1 minute fight. For major damage+major crit+resource pots you get 100% uptime and 2 skill slots freed up. Your argument of getting CC'ed on cooldown is actually an argument against immovable pots best I can see as their value increases the lower your uptime on CC immunity would natively be without them.

Furthermore, immovable pots only prevent 2 CC breaks so they do less for your stamina sustain than a regular trash stam pot.

Even if the immovable effect is stronger, the opportunity cost is very high and that renders it less useful in most situations. If you want to continue to construct these strawmen from cherry picked situations you can, but immovable pots give an effect that you already have a VERY high uptime on and come at the opportunity cost of other potions which can effectively free up skill slots and lead to a much more effective build.

I know you're a good player, but my math and personal experience have gotten me to switch from immovable pots to spell power pots on all my magika builds and the extra utility from 1-2 skill slots has given me extra utility that I swear by over a slightly increased burst window. If I can drop entropy and add ele drain then I've increased my damage by ~6% and increased my sustain enough that I can run tri-food over witchmothers, this eliminates any concerns about stam sustain as well(and therefore the need for tri-pots or immovables). As you know, there's a big chain reaction that comes from freeing up these skill slots that allows for a much more well rounded and complete build, I assume this is why you run speed+lingering health over immovables.

OK agree to disagree. I definitely respect your opinion and haven't found a reason to argue with you yet despite my propensity towards [snip] lol.

I think the effectiveness of immovables really depends on the players. There are some Mag NBs and stam templars, and especially wardens that can use them to devastating effect to ensure their burst doesn't get interrupted... (for example making sure the scorch hits at the same time as the bird and the poison injection) really any build that can really line up a burst. That's why in the most recent dueling tourney on PC NA (that never actually happened) immov pots were the only pots banned.

But if we really want to dig into the nitty gritty numbers, here are some things to consider:

Let's look at a 6s window in between stuns. Let's assume you're a Stam melee player. (And let's oversimplify lol)
You'll probably use at least one buff
You'll probably use at least one heal (vigor)
You'll probably use your own CC at least once, or a debuff
And then there's two attacks and one breakfree, or three attacks..
So for two rounds of CC immunity, it's not a 16% dmg increase, its potentially a 50% dmg increase

Now let's assume I'm fighting this player on my DK, which has petrify slotted. Fighting me, it removes not just a break free but also a rolldodge. Which means, using the rotation above, they go from having one spare attack per cycle to three spare attacks, which is a 200% increase!

But I actually feel the pain even more noticeable on my sorc. That crystal Frags knockdown is when I can pivot from defense / shield spam to offense. Timing the knockdown with the moment right before haunting curse hits, I can then use that second of no dmg to throw an execute and crushing shock, which can often times kill someone. Without the knockdown, i can't do that because I'll still be taking damage and will die if I don't cast shield instead of the execute or c shock.

No doubt immovable is a strong effect. I just think you have such a high uptime already and the opportunity cost of the potion is also high and I'm suggesting that is adequate counterplay. I can totally agree that in some situations it's "broken" strong. But those situations often tie immovable pots in with other iffy mechanics.

True. I think it lends itself more to Stam builds that are already running rally for major brutality + heal. We can make a immov + speed + stamina and get savagery from FoO (on DK) or hunter. I don't think. Immov + speed + magicka exists.

[Edited to remove profanity]

Lexxypwns · September 2017

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.

I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.

Alchemist only gives you more damage than a spell power pot if you have under 3k spell damage, otherwise you need a bar slot for major sorcery. Then you need to account for major prophecy or use a bar slot for it. For some classes, with easy native access to these buffs or bar space for toggles, immovable pots can shine.

However, I think a build that's getting 2 skill slots free'd up from sorcery/prophecy and using those slots for good utility can present similar challenges. I could run immovable pots on my mageblade but then I lose a skill slot to get major sorcery and I lose out in 10% crit or a second skill slot I use one of those slots for ele drain which covers enough of my sustain that I drop witchmother for tri-food, being CC immune isn't more beneficial than that sort of utility to a LOT of builds.

Strongly disagree. Against a good (or even average) player, you're going to get hard CCd as soon as immunity expires. Break free counts as an action on the global cool down. Running immov pots will therefore free up 1/6 of your attacks per cycle that you would otherwise spend breaking free. That translates into 16% more DPS, but also gets past any CC interuptions in a burst combo.

It might mean you have to add a skill to your bar (Stam doesn't tho) but it also negates a skill on the enemy's bar and makes them waste a GCD if they don't notice you popped the pot.

PvP isn't about hard numbers though. It's about sustaining until you can burst. And an immov pot is just too powerful because it allows you to know that you won't have a hard CC interupt your burst combo. Playing to to sustain and survive the other 30s while it's on cooldown is easy.

If I had to choose which is cheesier in duels - resource poisons or immov pots - I would say immov pots by a long shot for most players.

Agree to disagree, but I never have a problem dealing with CC from a standpoint of setting up my own burst. A CC during a burst cycle at worst causes you to reset it and at best guarantees your next burst gets off uninterrupted.

Let me put it this way, by your numbers, you spend 5/6 of a fight CC immune so immovable pots only give a 16% maximum possible uptime on their effect. Add to this that unless you're giving up jewelry glyphs then you've got 1/3 uptime on said potion and this means you get the benefits of an immovable pot for only 5.33% of a fight, or less than 4 seconds of a 1 minute fight. For major damage+major crit+resource pots you get 100% uptime and 2 skill slots freed up. Your argument of getting CC'ed on cooldown is actually an argument against immovable pots best I can see as their value increases the lower your uptime on CC immunity would natively be without them.

Furthermore, immovable pots only prevent 2 CC breaks so they do less for your stamina sustain than a regular trash stam pot.

Even if the immovable effect is stronger, the opportunity cost is very high and that renders it less useful in most situations. If you want to continue to construct these strawmen from cherry picked situations you can, but immovable pots give an effect that you already have a VERY high uptime on and come at the opportunity cost of other potions which can effectively free up skill slots and lead to a much more effective build.

I know you're a good player, but my math and personal experience have gotten me to switch from immovable pots to spell power pots on all my magika builds and the extra utility from 1-2 skill slots has given me extra utility that I swear by over a slightly increased burst window. If I can drop entropy and add ele drain then I've increased my damage by ~6% and increased my sustain enough that I can run tri-food over witchmothers, this eliminates any concerns about stam sustain as well(and therefore the need for tri-pots or immovables). As you know, there's a big chain reaction that comes from freeing up these skill slots that allows for a much more well rounded and complete build, I assume this is why you run speed+lingering health over immovables.

OK agree to disagree. I definitely respect your opinion and haven't found a reason to argue with you yet despite my propensity towards [snip]posting lol.

I think the effectiveness of immovables really depends on the players. There are some Mag NBs and stam templars, and especially wardens that can use them to devastating effect to ensure their burst doesn't get interrupted... (for example making sure the scorch hits at the same time as the bird and the poison injection) really any build that can really line up a burst. That's why in the most recent dueling tourney on PC NA (that never actually happened) immov pots were the only pots banned.

But if we really want to dig into the nitty gritty numbers, here are some things to consider:

Let's look at a 6s window in between stuns. Let's assume you're a Stam melee player. (And let's oversimplify lol)
You'll probably use at least one buff
You'll probably use at least one heal (vigor)
You'll probably use your own CC at least once, or a debuff
And then there's two attacks and one breakfree, or three attacks..
So for two rounds of CC immunity, it's not a 16% dmg increase, its potentially a 50% dmg increase

Now let's assume I'm fighting this player on my DK, which has petrify slotted. Fighting me, it removes not just a break free but also a rolldodge. Which means, using the rotation above, they go from having one spare attack per cycle to three spare attacks, which is a 200% increase!

But I actually feel the pain even more noticeable on my sorc. That crystal Frags knockdown is when I can pivot from defense / shield spam to offense. Timing the knockdown with the moment right before haunting curse hits, I can then use that second of no dmg to throw an execute and crushing shock, which can often times kill someone. Without the knockdown, i can't do that because I'll still be taking damage and will die if I don't cast shield instead of the execute or c shock.

No doubt immovable is a strong effect. I just think you have such a high uptime already and the opportunity cost of the potion is also high and I'm suggesting that is adequate counterplay. I can totally agree that in some situations it's "broken" strong. But those situations often tie immovable pots in with other iffy mechanics.

True. I think it lends itself more to Stam builds that are already running rally for major brutality + heal. We can make a immov + speed + stamina and get savagery from FoO (on DK) or hunter. I don't think. Immov + speed + magicka exists.

That makes sense. Even for stam builds, if I can untie myself from 2h I usually do. For builds where 2h is an absolute must I usually prefer speed+lingering health since that potion helps reduce your vigor casts or on some builds removing vigor altogether, an idea I actually ripped off from you.

That's just a matter of preference though and all I'm saying is that the opportunity cost of other potions or more skill slots is what keeps it from being grossly unbalanced. If the only other pots in the game were trash 1 stat pots then yeah, immovable pots have to go. But we don't play in a vacuum so looking at balance decisions in a vacuum is dangerous imo

[Edited for quote]

idk · September 2017

Nemeliom wrote: »

That's the way it works. You have your advantages and disadvantages of using THAT potion instead of other.
You have to choose between that one or a bursting one, or detect, etc depending on the situation, and it's available for every party, so it's not a disadvantage.

So true. And it lasts for a limited time with a longer CD to use it again.

Also, if we remove everything from the game that someone considers an inconvenience to them we'd be running around Cyrodiil naked and punching each other.

GrumpyDuckling · September 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Nemeliom wrote: »

That's the way it works. You have your advantages and disadvantages of using THAT potion instead of other.
You have to choose between that one or a bursting one, or detect, etc depending on the situation, and it's available for every party, so it's not a disadvantage.

So true. And it lasts for a limited time with a longer CD to use it again.

Also, if we remove everything from the game that someone considers an inconvenience to them we'd be running around Cyrodiil naked and punching each other.

Who is talking about removing anything from the game?

waitwhat · September 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even working for their full duration . Sometimes not at all . Why would you nerf what's broken .

Yeah the pots are definitely broken, more so than they were pre-Morrowind. They don't work for all kinds of CCs, and they REALLY don't seem to work against the guards.

To the actual point though, the full Essence of Immovability is quite costly to produce or purchase, requiring three high-demand ingredients for both the stam and mag variations. They are a non-trivial drain on any PvPer's budget. This limits their distribution more than you might think.

Moreover, with the absolute cc-baths everyone takes near a keep, the pots are almost necessary to the health of Cyrodiil.

Also, consider that it may not be the pots causing the immunity. That 100% uptime could very well be coming from Immovable, blocking, or the aforementioned cc-baths.

waitwhat · September 2017

Also tanks in Reactive don't use these pots, since they prevent the set from working. Just FYI.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · September 2017

The potion is fine. It's been around for years with no issues. Honestly this may be the first post about them I've seen since beta lol.

I'd rather ZoS removed some of the snares and immobilizes in the game before messing with the potions. When damn near everything in the game wants to snare and CC you, an immovable pot is needed much of the time.

cschwingeb14_ESO · September 2017

According to this thread, argonians in clever alchemist with potion cooldown glyphs and immovable pots are OP.

/Rerolls

HoloYoitsu · September 2017

What is this thread? You can complain about immovable pots once the CC system in this game is fixed.

Literally the only reason I use immov pots is because I'm forced to in order to not get stuck in a CC that takes 3+ sec to register my CC break and instantly die, even when I initiate CC break the millisecond the CC renders on my screen. Oh, and let's not forget about all the wonderful floppy fishing! That means I'm popping the immov pots pretty much right right when the engagement begins, losing out on getting resources back from it.

fred4 · September 2017

To those who argued about potion cooldown reduction glyphs: They don't work properly. Evidently none of you actually tried to use them

. Even if they worked, they would only raise uptime from 33% to 50% at substantial cost to damage or sustain.

I by no means find Immov pots OP. I do use them, but must try Lingering / Speed pots again. If you've carefully optimised your build, though, I think switching potions has knock-on effects, which is evident in the contrasting approaches of Lexxy and Thogard. Everyone has their pet peeves as well, feeding into their preference.

I would mention that you can create Immov / Crit / Mag pots, thus only need to cover Major Sorcery elsewhere, and you can use the Skooma Smuggler set to add speed for 30 seconds. You only need to have this set active on one bar, lending itself to a 5/5/2 setup.

As a magblade, I benefit from Immovability potions for both the gank opening rotation and for escape into cloak, when focused. They are useful for taking flags, as they inhibit the guard's reflection bubbles and other CC. My warden takes the guards down faster, and I almost don't care, but I like Immovability on the magblade. I also pop them when my stamina is low. As my performance can be bad in Cyrodiil, I pop them when rushing into keeps. Between the low framerate and visual effects, I would not even know when I'm CCd, and am often reduced to spamming Sap Essence in those situations.

pzschrek · September 2017

^this.

PvP is unplayable without immovable pots.

Besides the guards, any competent opponent is CCing the hell out of you, the floor is CCs, the entire world is CCs. The pots don't even work like they should, but they do make it barely possible to play.

You can't nerf immovable pots without nerfing CCs in my opinion.

Thogard · September 2017

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

The potion is fine. It's been around for years with no issues. Honestly this may be the first post about them I've seen since beta lol.

I'd rather ZoS removed some of the snares and immobilizes in the game before messing with the potions. When damn near everything in the game wants to snare and CC you, an immovable pot is needed much of the time.

Immov pots do not work on snares and roots - only stuns, knockdowns, and fears.

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

According to this thread, argonians in clever alchemist with potion cooldown glyphs and immovable pots are OP.

/Rerolls

I don't know about the potion cooldown reduction glyph, but the rest of that sounds pretty nice. Argonians are also immune to the major defile status effect when procd off of a disease enchant. There are more and more of the little lizards runnning around lately... clever alchemist is already used by many of the top stam players in the game.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · September 2017

I use immovable pots, mist form and retreating manuevers and I still don't have 100% CC break up time.

Barbaran · September 2017

its 15 sec with a 45 sec cooldown, not overpowered

clocksstoppe · September 2017

I really dislike the fact that potions (not only immovable) are absolutely broken on purpose, because the average joe doesn't have enough money to constantly use them. Kind of like card games that print insane cards but make them super rare so they are "balanced".

THEDKEXPERIENCE · September 2017

clocksstoppe wrote: »

I really dislike the fact that potions (not only immovable) are absolutely broken on purpose, because the average joe doesn't have enough money to constantly use them. Kind of like card games that print insane cards but make them super rare so they are "balanced".

What's your take on an "average joe" on a game that's 3 years old? If you mean a new player, sure they are at a disadvantage ... they're new. Then again if you're someone who is not new, and had the game for more than a year, if you're broke or incapable of making CP150 potions that's on you.

I could easily spit out 500 immovable + health and magic potions just by what's in my bag and I've played once this summer.

fred4 · September 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better.

Completely disagree. Made some Speed + Lingering pots today. While I always love the speed, lingering health gives me about 500 per second in PvP, equivalent to 1K health regen. That is pretty pathetic. That is not even close to Troll King, which is typically more like 2K, and I gave up on Troll King (without resto), because Healing Ward + Resto Ult outperform it by miles. While healing is always welcome, and it may just be the ticket for a layered healing approach, I was immediately made to regret not having my usual Immovability + Detection potion slotted. This was in IC, against other nightblades. I could not say that Lingering is bad, but to call it "flat out better" is complete nonsense. In the context of my build, which is a cloaking / shielding / light armor magblade, detection potions give me an edge, and the combination with immovability keeps me alive when I sense someone else around.

fred4 · September 2017

clocksstoppe wrote: »

I really dislike the fact that potions (not only immovable) are absolutely broken on purpose, because the average joe doesn't have enough money to constantly use them. Kind of like card games that print insane cards but make them super rare so they are "balanced".

Two words: Imperial City. Make some Tel Var stones. Buy apothecary parcels. That's where potions come from

. I realise this is a bit of a catch-22, but this is an RPG. You build, and build, and build your character until they're powerful, and at some point making gold (or potions) isn't a problem anymore either. Imperial City is just one way. I know plenty of people who do crafting writs every day, and sell materials, or who farm rare items (infused / sharpened weapons) that they sell. Sometimes people tell me they can't sell stuff. You need a guild in a good location. On PC EU, Belkarth (Craglorn) is the best place to sell. Makes a huge difference in how quickly you can turn over items.

Thogard · September 2017

fred4 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better.

Completely disagree. Made some Speed + Lingering pots today. While I always love the speed, lingering health gives me about 500 per second in PvP, equivalent to 1K health regen. That is pretty pathetic. That is not even close to Troll King, which is typically more like 2K, and I gave up on Troll King (without resto), because Healing Ward + Resto Ult outperform it by miles. While healing is always welcome, and it may just be the ticket for a layered healing approach, I was immediately made to regret not having my usual Immovability + Detection potion slotted. This was in IC, against other nightblades. I could not say that Lingering is bad, but to call it "flat out better" is complete nonsense. In the context of my build, which is a cloaking / shielding / light armor magblade, detection potions give me an edge, and the combination with immovability keeps me alive when I sense someone else around.

Speed + lingering works best with tanky or dmg mitigation builds, or builds that can avoid dmg easily by kiting. If you're vulnerable to burst, like a nightblade glass cannon in medium, then lingering health probably won't do too much.

If you can survive a stun though then I think, from a defensive standpoint, speed + lingering is far superior. My issues with immov are not that they're great for defense (although I can see how they'd be necessary for a stamblade), it's that they allow uninterrupted offense... they remove the hard counters to burst that CC offers...

But definitely don't sleep on lingering health. It's about as effective as trollking because it's up permanently, and it has cheap ingredients, and most of all because it'll allow you to slot a DPS monster set, which is great on a fairly tanky build.

fred4 · September 2017

Thogard wrote: »

Speed + lingering works best with tanky or dmg mitigation builds

Quite right, and that is where the fundamental difference lies between me, a light armor shielding build, and a heavy armor mitigation build. Not being able to shield means death. Out of stamina means death. Immovability not only gives me greater up-time for burst - I agree with you on that - it also makes me feel safer.

or builds that can avoid dmg easily by kiting.

That aint a mag build. I tried using Troll King, reliably activated from another HOT, to recover my health underneath a shield. It was not good enough even against some high-damage single players. Now, this is on a magblade. Things may look different for sorcs, who have a bigger shield or can stack. Mag warden also feels tankier. When you talk about a kiting / damage avoiding build, I'm guessing you're thinking of a Shuffle using / dodge rolling "Eternal Hunt" type stamblade? I have certainly come across the odd bow-using player able to avoid a lot damage by dodging.

If you're vulnerable to burst, like a nightblade glass cannon in medium, then lingering health probably won't do too much.

Indeed, that's exactly the issue, and it is where I have the problem with the "flat out better" statement, devoid of context.

If you can survive a stun though then I think, from a defensive standpoint, speed + lingering is far superior.

Is it though .... or is that old information? I could swear lingering health ticked higher and these pots were nerfed like everything else to do with regen.

Having said that, my group ran into Reggii, a stamsorc on PC EU, and he must have been laughing at our DPS. We had a mix of one or two decent DPS, the rest tanks / healers / less experienced players. There were 5 of us. I analysed the combat log afterwards. He wasn't blocking or dodging much, so he must have been healing. At one point he just stood there, while I funneled him for 2K a hit with no effect, meaning he had decent mitigation and at least 2K to 3K HPS without crit surge. I'm still trying to figure that one out. Might lingering pots have been part of his build? Do they scale up significantly with heavy armor and other buffs / CP?

fred4 · September 2017

Now, when I say a magblade isn't a kiting build, and I'm using Funnel, that must seem extremely odd. As I'm thinking about this, it's to do with me not using Shadow Image nor Mist Form. I can kite and weave in and out of cloak, but when I'm being focused, it's shields / resto ult, or die. My escape then lies in Immovability, Forward Momentum, Speed, and Cloak. I guess you might say I built around those potions, but any successful build has interlocking parts, I think.

supaskrub · September 2017

Integral1900 wrote: »

Potions... say it slowly.... p.o.t.i.o.n.s

A pot is something to put a plant in , or maybe cutlery, what you are using is a POTION!!!!!

Cutlery is a knife, fork, spoon etc.. a pot in the context you describe is "Crockery".

I use Immovable pots and still get CC'ed on occasion....

RinaldoGandolphi · September 2017

Immovable Pots have always been to strong. 15.7 seconds of CC Immunity is just absurd on a potion. The old Heavy Armor Immovable Skill in 1.x was only 13 seconds lol. (before they nerfed it for being too strong)

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Immovable

In reality Immovable Pots should really only give about 7.5 secs of immunity.

However, as long as Immovable pots stay as they are, they will be the top potion for pvp. Who am i to argue? I got tons of them and tons of alchemy reagents to make all i'll ever need.

it will be a long time before they ever get to re-evaluating and adjusting these.

Until then 9 out of 10 pvper's will be using some sort of immovable potions, and as we know...when something is over performing, nearly everyone is using them.

i'll continue to use them until they nerf them simply because not using them puts you at a disadvantage.

Lylith · September 2017

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I could see a slight duration nerf for Immovable pots, but other than that I think they are fine.

until *** chain cc's and permastuns are removed/actually fixed, the pots need to be left the *** alone.