GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

My (un)favorite are the guys who use Immovable potions and 3x potion boost glyphs. 99.9% uptime on CC immunity. How is that not OP?

Maybe cause you are giving up 500 or so spell/weapon dmge, or rgen?

With buffs 3x damage glyphs is over 600 damage with 100% uptime. That's more than any set in the game offers. But nah, its OP to have to give that up so that you can't be CC'ed. Either you can't be CC'ed or you can have the damage to kill someone, seems balanced.

@GrumpyDuckling immovable is not more valuable than major sorcery/brutality and its not even remotely close.

Immovable is WAY more valuable on potions for the simple fact that it's harder to get. Major Sorcery/Brutality is widely available in the game. Most builds can get it without potions.

No, it simply isn't and it's really not close. Particularly since major sorc/brut is typically paired with major prophecy/savagery. For builds that don't get these things without extra skill slots this frees up 2/10 skill slots! 20% of your skill slots and access to 2 buffs which are both stronger than immovable on any build that has to kill someone. these buffs also increase your healing since it scales with your damage and critical stats.

Again, immovable is strong but I can give examples all day of how freeing up 2 skill slots adds more to a build than immovable pots could ever hope.

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.

I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.

Alchemist only gives you more damage than a spell power pot if you have under 3k spell damage, otherwise you need a bar slot for major sorcery. Then you need to account for major prophecy or use a bar slot for it. For some classes, with easy native access to these buffs or bar space for toggles, immovable pots can shine.

However, I think a build that's getting 2 skill slots free'd up from sorcery/prophecy and using those slots for good utility can present similar challenges. I could run immovable pots on my mageblade but then I lose a skill slot to get major sorcery and I lose out in 10% crit or a second skill slot I use one of those slots for ele drain which covers enough of my sustain that I drop witchmother for tri-food, being CC immune isn't more beneficial than that sort of utility to a LOT of builds.

Strongly disagree. Against a good (or even average) player, you're going to get hard CCd as soon as immunity expires. Break free counts as an action on the global cool down. Running immov pots will therefore free up 1/6 of your attacks per cycle that you would otherwise spend breaking free. That translates into 16% more DPS, but also gets past any CC interuptions in a burst combo.

It might mean you have to add a skill to your bar (Stam doesn't tho) but it also negates a skill on the enemy's bar and makes them waste a GCD if they don't notice you popped the pot.

PvP isn't about hard numbers though. It's about sustaining until you can burst. And an immov pot is just too powerful because it allows you to know that you won't have a hard CC interupt your burst combo. Playing to to sustain and survive the other 30s while it's on cooldown is easy.

If I had to choose which is cheesier in duels - resource poisons or immov pots - I would say immov pots by a long shot for most players.

Agree to disagree, but I never have a problem dealing with CC from a standpoint of setting up my own burst. A CC during a burst cycle at worst causes you to reset it and at best guarantees your next burst gets off uninterrupted.

Let me put it this way, by your numbers, you spend 5/6 of a fight CC immune so immovable pots only give a 16% maximum possible uptime on their effect. Add to this that unless you're giving up jewelry glyphs then you've got 1/3 uptime on said potion and this means you get the benefits of an immovable pot for only 5.33% of a fight, or less than 4 seconds of a 1 minute fight. For major damage+major crit+resource pots you get 100% uptime and 2 skill slots freed up. Your argument of getting CC'ed on cooldown is actually an argument against immovable pots best I can see as their value increases the lower your uptime on CC immunity would natively be without them.

Furthermore, immovable pots only prevent 2 CC breaks so they do less for your stamina sustain than a regular trash stam pot.

Even if the immovable effect is stronger, the opportunity cost is very high and that renders it less useful in most situations. If you want to continue to construct these strawmen from cherry picked situations you can, but immovable pots give an effect that you already have a VERY high uptime on and come at the opportunity cost of other potions which can effectively free up skill slots and lead to a much more effective build.

I know you're a good player, but my math and personal experience have gotten me to switch from immovable pots to spell power pots on all my magika builds and the extra utility from 1-2 skill slots has given me extra utility that I swear by over a slightly increased burst window. If I can drop entropy and add ele drain then I've increased my damage by ~6% and increased my sustain enough that I can run tri-food over witchmothers, this eliminates any concerns about stam sustain as well(and therefore the need for tri-pots or immovables). As you know, there's a big chain reaction that comes from freeing up these skill slots that allows for a much more well rounded and complete build, I assume this is why you run speed+lingering health over immovables.

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.

I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.

Alchemist only gives you more damage than a spell power pot if you have under 3k spell damage, otherwise you need a bar slot for major sorcery. Then you need to account for major prophecy or use a bar slot for it. For some classes, with easy native access to these buffs or bar space for toggles, immovable pots can shine.

However, I think a build that's getting 2 skill slots free'd up from sorcery/prophecy and using those slots for good utility can present similar challenges. I could run immovable pots on my mageblade but then I lose a skill slot to get major sorcery and I lose out in 10% crit or a second skill slot I use one of those slots for ele drain which covers enough of my sustain that I drop witchmother for tri-food, being CC immune isn't more beneficial than that sort of utility to a LOT of builds.

Strongly disagree. Against a good (or even average) player, you're going to get hard CCd as soon as immunity expires. Break free counts as an action on the global cool down. Running immov pots will therefore free up 1/6 of your attacks per cycle that you would otherwise spend breaking free. That translates into 16% more DPS, but also gets past any CC interuptions in a burst combo.

It might mean you have to add a skill to your bar (Stam doesn't tho) but it also negates a skill on the enemy's bar and makes them waste a GCD if they don't notice you popped the pot.

PvP isn't about hard numbers though. It's about sustaining until you can burst. And an immov pot is just too powerful because it allows you to know that you won't have a hard CC interupt your burst combo. Playing to to sustain and survive the other 30s while it's on cooldown is easy.

If I had to choose which is cheesier in duels - resource poisons or immov pots - I would say immov pots by a long shot for most players.

Agree to disagree, but I never have a problem dealing with CC from a standpoint of setting up my own burst. A CC during a burst cycle at worst causes you to reset it and at best guarantees your next burst gets off uninterrupted.

Let me put it this way, by your numbers, you spend 5/6 of a fight CC immune so immovable pots only give a 16% maximum possible uptime on their effect. Add to this that unless you're giving up jewelry glyphs then you've got 1/3 uptime on said potion and this means you get the benefits of an immovable pot for only 5.33% of a fight, or less than 4 seconds of a 1 minute fight. For major damage+major crit+resource pots you get 100% uptime and 2 skill slots freed up. Your argument of getting CC'ed on cooldown is actually an argument against immovable pots best I can see as their value increases the lower your uptime on CC immunity would natively be without them.

Furthermore, immovable pots only prevent 2 CC breaks so they do less for your stamina sustain than a regular trash stam pot.

Even if the immovable effect is stronger, the opportunity cost is very high and that renders it less useful in most situations. If you want to continue to construct these strawmen from cherry picked situations you can, but immovable pots give an effect that you already have a VERY high uptime on and come at the opportunity cost of other potions which can effectively free up skill slots and lead to a much more effective build.

I know you're a good player, but my math and personal experience have gotten me to switch from immovable pots to spell power pots on all my magika builds and the extra utility from 1-2 skill slots has given me extra utility that I swear by over a slightly increased burst window. If I can drop entropy and add ele drain then I've increased my damage by ~6% and increased my sustain enough that I can run tri-food over witchmothers, this eliminates any concerns about stam sustain as well(and therefore the need for tri-pots or immovables). As you know, there's a big chain reaction that comes from freeing up these skill slots that allows for a much more well rounded and complete build, I assume this is why you run speed+lingering health over immovables.

OK agree to disagree. I definitely respect your opinion and haven't found a reason to argue with you yet despite my propensity towards [snip] lol.

I think the effectiveness of immovables really depends on the players. There are some Mag NBs and stam templars, and especially wardens that can use them to devastating effect to ensure their burst doesn't get interrupted... (for example making sure the scorch hits at the same time as the bird and the poison injection) really any build that can really line up a burst. That's why in the most recent dueling tourney on PC NA (that never actually happened) immov pots were the only pots banned.

But if we really want to dig into the nitty gritty numbers, here are some things to consider:

Let's look at a 6s window in between stuns. Let's assume you're a Stam melee player. (And let's oversimplify lol)
You'll probably use at least one buff
You'll probably use at least one heal (vigor)
You'll probably use your own CC at least once, or a debuff
And then there's two attacks and one breakfree, or three attacks..
So for two rounds of CC immunity, it's not a 16% dmg increase, its potentially a 50% dmg increase

Now let's assume I'm fighting this player on my DK, which has petrify slotted. Fighting me, it removes not just a break free but also a rolldodge. Which means, using the rotation above, they go from having one spare attack per cycle to three spare attacks, which is a 200% increase!

But I actually feel the pain even more noticeable on my sorc. That crystal Frags knockdown is when I can pivot from defense / shield spam to offense. Timing the knockdown with the moment right before haunting curse hits, I can then use that second of no dmg to throw an execute and crushing shock, which can often times kill someone. Without the knockdown, i can't do that because I'll still be taking damage and will die if I don't cast shield instead of the execute or c shock.

No doubt immovable is a strong effect. I just think you have such a high uptime already and the opportunity cost of the potion is also high and I'm suggesting that is adequate counterplay. I can totally agree that in some situations it's "broken" strong. But those situations often tie immovable pots in with other iffy mechanics.


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