Magsorc theorycrafting help.. surviving without shields..

Biro123 · September 2017

I've always kind of wanted to be able to play my sorc more like the old DAOC thane... heavy armour, mixed weapons and lightning magic - so been toying with ideas around this for a long, long time - in fact since I made my first sorc.

I've obviously since learned that damage shields and heavy armour don't synergise too well, neither do damage shields and blocking.. Although I have had some heavy sorc builds in the past - sustain has always been a big problem - and that was before the constitution nerf. I've also struggled to make a mag-sorc build with decent survivability that didn't rely on shields..
But that was before frost-staff became a tanking thing.. Not looked into this for a long time..

But.. shieldbreaker made me think.. If the only defence is to not shield, it made me think again about how to make a magsorc that can survive without shield..

So I'm looking for some theory-crafting ideas. First person to spring to mind to help with this is @Waffennacht

I honestly don't know if its possible to come up with a viable build with these goals in mind - and its a bit outside my area of knowledge (ie blocking magica builds) - but I'll be grateful for any ideas/advice..

Anyway - here is what I want to achieve..:

Reasonable survivability by a combination of blocking or shielding. ie. Block vs shieldbreaker, shield (or block) vs others..
Enough sustain to support that blocking/shielding.
Still able to sustain when on the attack (without being hit back)
OK damage.. I know it won't be great with the other requirements..
Nice to have manoeverability too.

It would be mostly aimed at Solo Cyrodiil and zerg-surfing.

Soo, my first thoughts are along the lines of..

5 Desert Rose (Blocking sustain with frost staff).. Possibly infused with frost glyph for good minor maim uptime (frost does give minor-maim nowadays, doesn't it?)

5 Bloodthorn (sustain while attacking) - resto staff (only place to get heals from).. I know its odd having the attacking staff as resto, but I'm used to a strange bar layout. Also needs dark-exchange to be workable if not getting attacked back. I thought that straight-out + mag recov would be neutered when blocking..

2 Bloodspawn (more resists and resto ulti's)

And skill bars:

bar1
CS/frag/streak/hardened/dark exch/ overload

bar2
curse/wrath/healing ward/mutagen/boundless/ resto ulti

It means bar-swapping a LOT in combat (which I'm used to), but should mean enough light attacks with resto for bloodthorn..
Overload bar is just gonna be for buffs (surge for more passive healing on top of mutagen), and utility - defensive rune, rapids etc.. since It'd probably need to crutch on lots of resto ulti's due to limited healing (esp vs shieldbreaker as healing ward would be out).

I expect I'd have to use plenty of impen (or sturdy)

Not sure on jewellry glyphs.. cost reduction? or block cost?

I'm also not sure if mag regen stops while blocking with frost staff (like stam does for other weapons - I assume it does)

Any thoughts ?

Or other suggestions to achieve the same thing? Perhaps a heavy armour option? sword n board?

Unfortunately, I'm quite poor in-game at the mo - so don't have much resources for testing many combinations - so I kind of want to work it out as much as possible first.

raasdal · September 2017

EDIT: Realized i actually had a video of the build, from when i Theorycrafted it. See the description of the video for more info on it.

https://youtu.be/_kEi-UaqlYo

Hey!

It is certainly possible to have a MagSorc without shields. I have made one before.

But your focus is wrong. This is what you need to do;

Focus on Health Regen for your defenses.
Focus on Spell Power or Proc Sets for your offense.

You can do above, in many different ways. Destro / Destro, DW / Resto, and with different Sets.

Here's a snip i wrote for someone else once upon a time (TODAY however, i would go Green Pact, instead of Black Rose, and swap in some regens.)

---
Troll King
Black Rose
Willpower/VMA Staff.
Destro / Destro.

Front; Crushing Shock, Dark Deal (the other morph), Frags, Streak
Back; Curse, Ele Drain, Surge, Boundless Storm, Destructive Reach

For sustain you need to rely on the other morph of Dark Deal (stamina cost, for magicka gain) and Elemental Drain. I use Destructive Reach as my main CC, and combine it with Ele Drain, on my backbar.

ALL you enchants should be Spell Power, and use Steed Mundus. At least 1800 Health Recovery when not buffed. Might have to change some glyphs to recovery with Morrowind though.

You MUST use lingering health + speed potions, to proc Troll King.

You will need to use Orzorgas Smoked Bear Haunch (Gold Food).

This will put you at about 27k resistances buffed, 1800 health recovery and about 900-1000 stam/mag recovery. Spellpower should be at about 3k and Magicka about 20-25K.

You can also go DW / Destro and make it a Power Overload build. That is MUCH easier to sustain, but Overload is clunky and it can be very frustrating.

Also this is ONLY for No-CP / Battlegrounds etc.
---

technohic · September 2017

My sorc is not quite complete but 5 heavy 2 light, 5 necropotence, 2 piece monster set (bloodspawn was intended but need a heavy head yet) with destro front bar, then back bar I have been running 1h and shield to get the weird tree set there to give me some magicka recovery and the 5th piece is not the show here because of its cooldown but its just a nice bonus.

I haven't had the sorc long so I am still working on it and possibly going a different route than Wyrd tree eventually, maybe go shackle breaker at some point, but it works ok. I just hate having to recast shield all the time.

Biro123 · September 2017

raasdal wrote: »

EDIT: Realized i actually had a video of the build, from when i Theorycrafted it. See the description of the video for more info on it.

https://youtu.be/_kEi-UaqlYo

Hey!

It is certainly possible to have a MagSorc without shields. I have made one before.

But your focus is wrong. This is what you need to do;

Focus on Health Regen for your defenses.
Focus on Spell Power or Proc Sets for your offense.

You can do above, in many different ways. Destro / Destro, DW / Resto, and with different Sets.

Here's a snip i wrote for someone else once upon a time (TODAY however, i would go Green Pact, instead of Black Rose, and swap in some regens.)

---
Troll King
Black Rose
Willpower/VMA Staff.
Destro / Destro.

Front; Crushing Shock, Dark Deal (the other morph), Frags, Streak
Back; Curse, Ele Drain, Surge, Boundless Storm, Destructive Reach

For sustain you need to rely on the other morph of Dark Deal (stamina cost, for magicka gain) and Elemental Drain. I use Destructive Reach as my main CC, and combine it with Ele Drain, on my backbar.

ALL you enchants should be Spell Power, and use Steed Mundus. At least 1800 Health Recovery when not buffed. Might have to change some glyphs to recovery with Morrowind though.

You MUST use lingering health + speed potions, to proc Troll King.

You will need to use Orzorgas Smoked Bear Haunch (Gold Food).

This will put you at about 27k resistances buffed, 1800 health recovery and about 900-1000 stam/mag recovery. Spellpower should be at about 3k and Magicka about 20-25K.

You can also go DW / Destro and make it a Power Overload build. That is MUCH easier to sustain, but Overload is clunky and it can be very frustrating.

Also this is ONLY for No-CP / Battlegrounds etc.
---

Interesting.. That's an angle I hadn't really considered..
I have tried a health-recov build before but it was focused on Permafrost - but as that needed shields up - I'd kind of discarded the recov idea.. I do already have a set I experimented with recently.. Willows.. with tri-stat drink gives plenty of base health recov, along with plenty of recov on other stats.. But I'd built it with shielding in mind (and to experiment with the new Invigorating trait).. Oddly enough, it worked best with Trainee - as ALL of my base stats were low with it. (but that won't leave space for troll-king though)..

Food for thought though...

Minno · September 2017

You can also do pirate/chudan for a more resist focused build. It's similar to running blood spawn, but you get the resists up front. You can also combo with pirate/kena for balanced DMG/resists.

Maybe run parah's for the high resists? Combo monster helm = 5800, blood spawn = 63000, parah will give you more but you need to meet the low health condition.

With hot potions/entropy, you can proc transmutation reliably. Letting you roll a few sturdy or just enjoy the high crit resist.

Lord-Otto · September 2017

No constructive stuff to add from me here.
(^_^)'
But why would you even try? Magblades seem a better fit for that, with similar burst and way better HoTs.

Thogard · September 2017

Oooo DAoC thane! I played one of those on Mordred. Nostalgia...

No hammers raining down from above, but what I'd do is go all-in on thane! Just need to drop the whole "heavy armor" thing because you won't need it. (Besides thanes didn't have access to plate anyway)

Set 1: impregnable. Light armor.
Set 2: overwhelming surge
Monster set: id go with Bloodspawn for the two piece but also the Stam regen

Trait = sturdy! This will allow you to block indefinitely, which you'll need.

Bar 1: hammer / shield, thane style
1. Crystal Frags
2. Haunting curse
3. Dark deal - converts mag to health + Stam, important!
4. Twilight matriarch - you need some heals
5. Power surge
U: overload, for dmg and mag regen, with bloodspawn it should be good

Bar 2: Destro staff
1. Weakness to elements
2. Mage's fury
3. Elemental blockade
4. Twilight matriarch
5. Boundless storm or bolt escape or mist form
U: up to you

You'd be really hard to kill with permablock + matriarch + power surge. Your goal would be to use overwhelming + blockade + pet to get someone to around 75%. Then you can wait until overwhelming procs, throw on haunting curse and mage's wrath and then pop overload and blast them to death. You'll probably need an infused wep dmg glyph on your hammer. Overload bar would look similar to 1h/s bar but would remove dark deal and power surge and replace with reverb bash (for major defile) and mage's wrath. Need bloodspawn + dark deal for Stam regen to keep permablock up. I'd pick up the mag regen mundus and use Tristat food.

You'd have to play it pretty patiently. Gotta line up the burst, but it would Be hard to beat in a duel I think.

Fun theorycrafting

kaithuzar · September 2017

Personally, even us magblades use shields therefore, if you want to go without shields then I would suggest 5 wizard riposte (jewelry & weapons), 5 shacklebreaker; 5 heavy 2 light
Maybe even make 2 pieces (legs & chest) nirnhoned
For monster sets, probably 2 slime craw
Just use wizard riposte on back bar only with defending ice staff + wall of elements, you could do magicka/resource drain poisons
Make sharpened destro with spell damage or shock enchant with lover mundus & 50 points into spell erosion mundus, I think that should give around 9k pen
You may need to go with 1 recovery or reduce cost on jewelry + witchmothers brew

It will be hard to kill people in this tank meta but run magelight (just front bar) with slimecraw should get you ~40% crit

If you feel damage is way too low, replace shacklebreaker with amberplasm & use julianos instead of wizard riposte

Lexxypwns · September 2017

If you're trying to survive without shields on mag sorc then I think you're going to have a tough time without 2h+forward momentum+troll king.

You'll also probably want to run lingering health pots.

Bloodthorn is only good if you can stay offensive even when turtling, which requires a ranged weapon to weave with on your defensive bar and a reliable way to weave front bar.

@Minno has a sick magplar build that could be adapted to fit your needs on sorc perhaps although I think completely forgoing shields is obviously a bad idea.

Derra · September 2017

Lots of ideas existed before.
Lots of ideas "work" - if you abandon the thought of creating a build that is competetive to meta builds of magica DK, NB, Templar, Warden or sorc with shields in light or heavy.

Biro123 · September 2017

Don't get me wrong - I'm not looking to completely do without shields - I kind of expect it's not possible.

Just looking for something which can survive unshielded for a reasonable amount of time.

@Thogard - Thanks for the ideas, but what you have hit on here is one of the biggest hurdles - heals. The pet heal sounds nice on paper - but without shields, the pet dies very, very quickly. This is why sorcs are generally forced to uses shields.

Hmm. sturdy transmutation could be promising...

What kind of setups do MagDK's and Magplars generally run to allow them to block so much?

FloppyTouch · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - I'm not looking to completely do without shields - I kind of expect it's not possible.

Just looking for something which can survive unshielded for a reasonable amount of time.

@Thogard - Thanks for the ideas, but what you have hit on here is one of the biggest hurdles - heals. The pet heal sounds nice on paper - but without shields, the pet dies very, very quickly. This is why sorcs are generally forced to uses shields.

Hmm. sturdy transmutation could be promising...

What kind of setups do MagDK's and Magplars generally run to allow them to block so much?

I use sturdy impregnable gear heavy and drop block to heavy attack for more stam back and us ults that give me a ton of stam and a damage shield- leap

That's how I block for so long on a mdk

pieratsos · September 2017

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

technohic · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

Or it's completely stupid that they can't give up one mechanic to make a different build other than light armor and shields. It's not just sorcs that use that either. If it wasn't so common; very few would even consider shield breaker.

pieratsos · September 2017

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

Or it's completely stupid that they can't give up one mechanic to make a different build other than light armor and shields. It's not just sorcs that use that either. If it wasn't so common; very few would even consider shield breaker.

Please use ur brain before you post bs like that.

Shield is the sorc defence. They have the one and only shield that can be found in any class that is an actual main defence mechanic. They lack selfhealing and other defense mechanics compared to other classes because they are good at shielding. In short, sorcs are designed for shielding.

So yeah it is completely stupid for them to try and find ways to make builds that have no synergy with the way their class is designed because there is a set that destroys their defence by spamming left click.

Imagine a set saying, light attacks deal 2k oblivion dmg to anyone that is blocking and/or have a HOT running. Should we also tell templars, that its completely stupid for them not giving up the heals their class gives them because of a set that destroys them by pressing left click?

If shieldstacking is a problem then you fix shieldstacking. You dont introduce a more stupid mechanic to counter it. Its common sense that is going to lead to more problems.

technohic · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

Or it's completely stupid that they can't give up one mechanic to make a different build other than light armor and shields. It's not just sorcs that use that either. If it wasn't so common; very few would even consider shield breaker.

Please use ur brain before you post bs like that.

Shield is the sorc defence. They have the one and only shield that can be found in any class that is an actual main defence mechanic. They lack selfhealing and other defense mechanics compared to other classes because they are good at shielding. In short, sorcs are designed for shielding.

So yeah it is completely stupid for them to try and find ways to make builds that have no synergy with the way their class is designed because there is a set that destroys their defence by spamming left click.

Imagine a set saying, light attacks deal 2k oblivion dmg to anyone that is blocking and/or have a HOT running. Should we also tell templars, that its completely stupid for them not giving up the heals their class gives them because of a set that destroys them by pressing left click?

If shieldstacking is a problem then you fix shieldstacking. You dont introduce a more stupid mechanic to counter it. Its common sense that is going to lead to more problems.

I think you should use your brain because you clearly are thinking of this out of emotion.

I wasn't saying there is a problem with shields. It's that there is lack of defensive options outside of that. Although; I'm not sure what any class has any more defensively than sorcs outside of DKs and Templars. Twilight matriarch is a good heal. I use it and have no problem with it dieing. If it does; I just press the button twice like I would healing ward by default

pieratsos · September 2017

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

Or it's completely stupid that they can't give up one mechanic to make a different build other than light armor and shields. It's not just sorcs that use that either. If it wasn't so common; very few would even consider shield breaker.

Please use ur brain before you post bs like that.

Shield is the sorc defence. They have the one and only shield that can be found in any class that is an actual main defence mechanic. They lack selfhealing and other defense mechanics compared to other classes because they are good at shielding. In short, sorcs are designed for shielding.

So yeah it is completely stupid for them to try and find ways to make builds that have no synergy with the way their class is designed because there is a set that destroys their defence by spamming left click.

Imagine a set saying, light attacks deal 2k oblivion dmg to anyone that is blocking and/or have a HOT running. Should we also tell templars, that its completely stupid for them not giving up the heals their class gives them because of a set that destroys them by pressing left click?

If shieldstacking is a problem then you fix shieldstacking. You dont introduce a more stupid mechanic to counter it. Its common sense that is going to lead to more problems.

I think you should use your brain because you clearly are thinking of this out of emotion.

I wasn't saying there is a problem with shields. It's that there is lack of defensive options outside of that. Although; I'm not sure what any class has any more defensively than sorcs outside of DKs and Templars. Twilight matriarch is a good heal. I use it and have no problem with it dieing. If it does; I just press the button twice like I would healing ward by default

Sorcs are designed around shields. When there is a set that completely destroys that with no player skill attached to it then its stupid. Period.

And no you clearly dont use ur brain, cause if you did you would understand how stupid the set is. Shieldbreaker is either completely useless or completely stupid. No middle ground. That is enough to tell you about the design of the set. And the fact that it was introduced to "fix" shieldstacking and yet now people are complaining about both shieldstacking and shieldbreaker is enough to know how miserably it failed to do its intented purpose.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2017

Hmm... and would it be possible to go all into ult regen instead of the usual way of blocking? I think I've read somewhere that Alteration Mastery reduces each and every cost by 6%. Add Bloodspawn on that and you should have a high uptime on the SnB ultimate. Same should work with the healing ultimate.

I wouldn't go full heavy. You loose out too much dmg and with the high ulti uptime you won't take too much dmg. But you won't deal too much either.
Heals are the problem. Any competent player will take out pets first and I don't know if you can blockcast them. Resto backbar with some hots maybe. You could try to save yourself from spell wall to spell wall and use dark deal/other morph behind the shield, but you can still be bashed. Same goes for invigorating drain, but that would shorten the durations between ultimates.

Or the addressed way of full sturdy impregnable armor + now bugged malubeth & befoul cp if you're into cheese.

For the dmg maybe overwhelming surge or war maiden/ julianos.

technohic · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

Or it's completely stupid that they can't give up one mechanic to make a different build other than light armor and shields. It's not just sorcs that use that either. If it wasn't so common; very few would even consider shield breaker.

Please use ur brain before you post bs like that.

Shield is the sorc defence. They have the one and only shield that can be found in any class that is an actual main defence mechanic. They lack selfhealing and other defense mechanics compared to other classes because they are good at shielding. In short, sorcs are designed for shielding.

So yeah it is completely stupid for them to try and find ways to make builds that have no synergy with the way their class is designed because there is a set that destroys their defence by spamming left click.

Imagine a set saying, light attacks deal 2k oblivion dmg to anyone that is blocking and/or have a HOT running. Should we also tell templars, that its completely stupid for them not giving up the heals their class gives them because of a set that destroys them by pressing left click?

If shieldstacking is a problem then you fix shieldstacking. You dont introduce a more stupid mechanic to counter it. Its common sense that is going to lead to more problems.

I think you should use your brain because you clearly are thinking of this out of emotion.

I wasn't saying there is a problem with shields. It's that there is lack of defensive options outside of that. Although; I'm not sure what any class has any more defensively than sorcs outside of DKs and Templars. Twilight matriarch is a good heal. I use it and have no problem with it dieing. If it does; I just press the button twice like I would healing ward by default

Sorcs are designed around shields. When there is a set that completely destroys that with no player skill attached to it then its stupid. Period.

And no you clearly dont use ur brain, cause if you did you would understand how stupid the set is. Shieldbreaker is either completely useless or completely stupid. No middle ground. That is enough to tell you about the design of the set. And the fact that it was introduced to "fix" shieldstacking and yet now people are complaining about both shieldstacking and shieldbreaker is enough to know how miserably it failed to do its intented purpose.

Again; I am not arguing against any of that. I was just saying that other magicka classes rely on shields as well. Some could go heavy but if you really want to DPS and get any kind of penetration as magicka, light armor is too good to pass up. Balance as far as ZOS goes is what it is; and the presence of so many resorting to shields (again, not just sorcs) drives the use of that set, stupid or not. The counter meta is not there for us to deal with it ourselves more like we usually do for months until something is adjusted.

Minno · September 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Hmm... and would it be possible to go all into ult regen instead of the usual way of blocking? I think I've read somewhere that Alteration Mastery reduces each and every cost by 6%. Add Bloodspawn on that and you should have a high uptime on the SnB ultimate. Same should work with the healing ultimate.

I wouldn't go full heavy. You loose out too much dmg and with the high ulti uptime you won't take too much dmg. But you won't deal too much either.
Heals are the problem. Any competent player will take out pets first and I don't know if you can blockcast them. Resto backbar with some hots maybe. You could try to save yourself from spell wall to spell wall and use dark deal/other morph behind the shield, but you can still be bashed. Same goes for invigorating drain, but that would shorten the durations between ultimates.

Or the addressed way of full sturdy impregnable armor + now bugged malubeth & befoul cp if you're into cheese.

For the dmg maybe overwhelming surge or war maiden/ julianos.

I like that ulti idea. I would definitely go julianos for that sweet crit chance to buffup your crit surge.

Without shield, a Sorc needs stamina to help reduce DMG, byt there aren't many sets that give both Stam/mag. Luckily you do get a huge boost to your Regens.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

If you're trying to survive without shields on mag sorc then I think you're going to have a tough time without 2h+forward momentum+troll king.

You'll also probably want to run lingering health pots.

Bloodthorn is only good if you can stay offensive even when turtling, which requires a ranged weapon to weave with on your defensive bar and a reliable way to weave front bar.

@Minno has a sick magplar build that could be adapted to fit your needs on sorc perhaps although I think completely forgoing shields is obviously a bad idea.

Prisoners would be the best set after alteration for a non-shield magsorc. It gives two stat Stam Regen and hides mag Regen behind Sprint letting you keep your offense stats. Since sorcs have to use a weapon spamable, they can also get elemental drain for extra sustain.

Let me cook something up lol.

Biro123 · September 2017

I think using stam for defence and mag for offence could work well if its possible to get enough stats and recov for them both..

Sounds like it would be constrained to sword n board with resto staff.. Sword n board front-bar? Play like DW? Not having a class spammable is a quite a big barrier too.. I won't do Amberplasm.. I only have one piece and really can't be hassled with the farming.. Shacklebreaker sounds like an option.. But I like the ulti route. I may experiment a little with some sets I already have to see what ideas I can get... If I can get onto Vivec anytime soon...

Minno · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

I think using stam for defence and mag for offence could work well if its possible to get enough stats and recov for them both..

Sounds like it would be constrained to sword n board with resto staff.. Sword n board front-bar? Play like DW? Not having a class spammable is a quite a big barrier too.. I won't do Amberplasm.. I only have one piece and really can't be hassled with the farming.. Shacklebreaker sounds like an option.. But I like the ulti route. I may experiment a little with some sets I already have to see what ideas I can get... If I can get onto Vivec anytime soon...

Might be better to let go of the spamable. I know force pulse is amazing, but what if we went dots/delayed DMG? Dots for block builds and delayed DMG so you can be on your defensive bar more.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

I think using stam for defence and mag for offence could work well if its possible to get enough stats and recov for them both..

Sounds like it would be constrained to sword n board with resto staff.. Sword n board front-bar? Play like DW? Not having a class spammable is a quite a big barrier too.. I won't do Amberplasm.. I only have one piece and really can't be hassled with the farming.. Shacklebreaker sounds like an option.. But I like the ulti route. I may experiment a little with some sets I already have to see what ideas I can get... If I can get onto Vivec anytime soon...

It's probably not exactly what you have in mind but at some point I've run a hybrid Sorc in PvP. Wasn't too much of a killer build but neither I'm a godly player nor an outstanding theorycrafter.

5 heavy/ 1/1 - 2h and resto with tri stat food and buffed around 29.5k health, 20k magicka and 32.5 stam with 3.7k weapon/ spell dmg. Allowed good stam heals and mobility.
With a bit moving of glyphs and attributes you could definitely get this in the favor of magicka.

Defensive wise I utilized Rally, Light's Champion and Dark Deal for heals. Shuffle, roll dodge (impreg opened up space for some well fitted traits) for heavy hitters. Change to sturdy if you like to block more. I haven't used shields on it.

Rally, Dodge, HA, Block and resto ultimate are a strong combination and I had even a flex slot for vigor. Maybe that is for you if you're looking for something else than permablock and pet heals.

To manage resources I mixed stam usage with mag skills and got away with around 900-1.1k regen each, since you don't deplete everything from one resource.

Offensively it was nowhere near meta builds. Tooltips form Dizzying Swing at 15.9k , Wrath Execute proc at 11.4k and curse at 10.4k.

With some twists you might as well change that more into what you have in mind. Sets used to be pelinals, impregnable and one piece kena.

kaithuzar · September 2017

If you're going to get rid of crushing shock you might as well go duel wield, or 2 hander with forward momentum.

The biggest problem with all of these tanks setups is your time to kill is drastically increased.
Heavy julianos used to be awesome but since this patch, I had trouble killing people even while I was wearing 5 light julianos, which is why I swapped to 5 light scathing.
If you just want to survive until your friends show up it's easy to build as a tank.
I noticed some magicka sorcs going duel wield & using dawnbreaker.

pieratsos · September 2017

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You know a set is completely stupid when sorcs are literally trying to find ways to completely change their build even if it doesnt synergize with the class just to be able to fight that set.

Or it's completely stupid that they can't give up one mechanic to make a different build other than light armor and shields. It's not just sorcs that use that either. If it wasn't so common; very few would even consider shield breaker.

Please use ur brain before you post bs like that.

Shield is the sorc defence. They have the one and only shield that can be found in any class that is an actual main defence mechanic. They lack selfhealing and other defense mechanics compared to other classes because they are good at shielding. In short, sorcs are designed for shielding.

So yeah it is completely stupid for them to try and find ways to make builds that have no synergy with the way their class is designed because there is a set that destroys their defence by spamming left click.

Imagine a set saying, light attacks deal 2k oblivion dmg to anyone that is blocking and/or have a HOT running. Should we also tell templars, that its completely stupid for them not giving up the heals their class gives them because of a set that destroys them by pressing left click?

If shieldstacking is a problem then you fix shieldstacking. You dont introduce a more stupid mechanic to counter it. Its common sense that is going to lead to more problems.

I think you should use your brain because you clearly are thinking of this out of emotion.

I wasn't saying there is a problem with shields. It's that there is lack of defensive options outside of that. Although; I'm not sure what any class has any more defensively than sorcs outside of DKs and Templars. Twilight matriarch is a good heal. I use it and have no problem with it dieing. If it does; I just press the button twice like I would healing ward by default

Sorcs are designed around shields. When there is a set that completely destroys that with no player skill attached to it then its stupid. Period.

And no you clearly dont use ur brain, cause if you did you would understand how stupid the set is. Shieldbreaker is either completely useless or completely stupid. No middle ground. That is enough to tell you about the design of the set. And the fact that it was introduced to "fix" shieldstacking and yet now people are complaining about both shieldstacking and shieldbreaker is enough to know how miserably it failed to do its intented purpose.

Again; I am not arguing against any of that. I was just saying that other magicka classes rely on shields as well. Some could go heavy but if you really want to DPS and get any kind of penetration as magicka, light armor is too good to pass up. Balance as far as ZOS goes is what it is; and the presence of so many resorting to shields (again, not just sorcs) drives the use of that set, stupid or not. The counter meta is not there for us to deal with it ourselves more like we usually do for months until something is adjusted.

If you actually talk to those shieldbreaker *** spamming left click they all have one common thing. They hate sorcs specifically and will say sorcs OP even tho they have no clue about sorcs. And the introduction of that set was because of shieldstacking sorcs. Not shields in general.

Shields are the intented defensive mechanic when u are using light armor. Thats how its designed. No one is complaining about shields on any other class other than sorcs. And all other classes can make a build without the need of shields cause their classes have other defenses. Even in light armor (under certain circumstances of course like using riposte). They can use snb, heals, hots, dodge as extra defenses. Sorcs cant. Thats how their class is designed. Thats why that set is beyond stupid and its actually quite sad when you see sorcs trying to find ways around shields when their class is promoting the use of shields. Even tho shieldstacking isnt a good mechanic and a lot of actually experienced sorcs suggested themselves the removal of shieldstacking and making sorcs more mobile based for defence.

Biro123 · September 2017

Had a quick look at what gear I had kicking around.. Noticed I had a necropotence shield and thought 'hmm' . maybe I can easily put something together..

I already had a shacklebreaker/necropotence setup and thought to work on that.. Shacklebreaker being equally good with stam.
So, swapping 2-hander for sword n board, let me fit in a full monster set (bloofspawn) but meant only getting the necropotence bonus on the front bar.
Bloodspawn gave extra Stam recov but I lost mag recov.

So, skills. I needed to add boundless for resists, mutagen for a hot, and surge for more passive heals.. Only way to fit those 3 skills was by dropping the pet. And harness.
Struggled a bit with mag recov and now had no burst heal -so lost inner light for dark exchange.
Needed a bit more SRAM recov to fuel dark exch (and recov after blocking) so switched drink from witchmothers to one with Max health, Stam+mag recov.

Big downside on testing is that I need to level shield more to get the ulti, and get more skill points for the passives. So can't really test properly yet. Also don't have sturdy, so need to get crafting..

Overall though, on the damage front, its a loss of 10k Max mag, around 200 spelldmg, 12% crit and the twin blade and blunt passive -for probably less survivability.

First thoughts are that its probably not worth it.

Waffennacht · September 2017

Imo SnB or Resto Staff, both is overkill unless you're like a pure tank.

Determine your front bar weapon. Is it a destro or 2H or DW?

Then based on that determine back bar.

If you're not relying on shields primarily are you going for Armor Resistance + Mitigation OR SnB block?

No need for both. Imo it's Light Armor + SnB + Sturdy or Heavy + Resto

Both will provide the non shield defense for a period of time.

Heavy Resto leaves more room for error but less offense

Light + SnB allows for lots of offense and permablock but can be very unforgiving.

Personally Light + SnB is superior but will look bad until you are a pro with it

Biro123 · September 2017

Would love to figure out a light, s+b build.. but where could the heals come from? The only choices I can see are dark-deal and surge, which I don't think would cut it.. Perhaps a heal-proccing monster-set instead of bloodspawn..?

Waffennacht · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Would love to figure out a light, s+b build.. but where could the heals come from? The only choices I can see are dark-deal and surge, which I don't think would cut it.. Perhaps a heal-proccing monster-set instead of bloodspawn..?

A spot heal was always my bane for such builds on a sorc as well (but thought it would be OP with easy access)

Monster sets are a choice, such as Troll King though defile hurts.

I always ended up relying on streak + Conversion.

Kinda why I moved away from sorcs

Betsararie · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Would love to figure out a light, s+b build.. but where could the heals come from? The only choices I can see are dark-deal and surge, which I don't think would cut it.. Perhaps a heal-proccing monster-set instead of bloodspawn..?

sorcs heals are garbage and yet another reason why they aren't 'OP'.

Dark Conversion is not a realistic skill to use for a heal. The cast time is 1.2 seconds, AKA, an extremely long time. You'll be dead long before the skill finishes casting. I don't even think of it as a heal. Conversion is for sustain and the heal is a nice little bonus if you aren't in combat.

For sorc healing, the best things I've come up with are

- healing ward
- mutagen
- Engine Guardian
- resto ult (essential)

I've played around with all of these options. Personally I am using healing ward at the moment and along with my other shields it generally works for me. If I can get a conversion off all the better. Unfortunately it seems there are few options for healing, and none as good as the other classes.

Brutusmax1mus · September 2017

Are you completely against going heavy armor?