DPS numberbragging and target scope

Tannus15 · September 2017

Ir0nB34r wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

I dunno if I agree with these exactly, but you are close. Mostly its about the "Below 15k" group. Its still very much possible to complete vet dungeons with 10k to 15k dps. It may take slightly longer, and experiences can vary per dungeon, but it is still very much possible.

yeah, I would say for the "low" group, just stay out of the DLC dungeons. you'll be fine on vet for pretty much everything else.

Dantaria · September 2017

SoLooney wrote: »

. People wear ridiculous sets, have the lover mundus when real settings you would have warrior or apprentice, and people beating down the 3mil dummy as fast they can without managing resources because its a short fight

I'm getting really tired of this.

You will not have apprentice or warrior mundus in "real settings". You will have apprentice or warrior only in raid with good Alkosh uptime. Otherwise - yep. You're underpenetrating on 3k.

There is nothing wrong with people testing their DPS with Lover mundus. If they run only dungeons/raids with suboptimal gear composition, they will have lover mundus. If we count Major Breach/Fracture + Infused Crusher (and in many cases there even won't be infused Crusher!), it's ~7400 pen. Bosses' resists are 18.5k. You need 11k.

Only if Alcosh - then you can go with Apprentice + 43 Spell Erosion (= ~8k)
If no Alcosh - Lover is exactly the way to go (Lover + ~20 in Spell Erosion).

And if people have needed DPS with Lover and 11k penetration, trust me, they will also get needed DPS when they change setup for raid with Alkosh.

So stop this LOVER IS CHEATING already. And also stop taking apprentice or warrior if you only go to dungeons. Ffs, you won't have Alkosh in dungeon. So yeah - for dungeons, Lover. For PUG/sub-optimal raids - Lover.

For your static group (IF you have one) - Warrior/Apprentice.

WuffyCerulei · September 2017

Most vet places need about 25k at the very least, but that number is easy to achieve. Most of the high number parses you see are from people who are min-maxed, have the best gear, and have their rotation down to a t.
However, big numbers don't equate to a good dps if they die make no effort on their part to stay alive, do poorly without taking responsibility, or if they're terrible team players. I don't have all the best gear, and I have a crap computer, but I try my best to listen to the group and stay alive if lag permits it.

Morgul667 · September 2017

I did a PUG with a guildmate and 2 random people last night. Group DPS was 30k in VET. I was tank and pulled 6K. Other 3 guys were pulling 24K alltogether so basically 2 k more than me

DPS sharing is great for improving each other.

In my guild we ask 22k DPS on training dummy for vet trials. Not too high and achievable. (20k
+ 10% of punction for regen = 22k)

Daily pledges 10 -15k should be OK

20k is OK for most content, especially if you start

30 k is better life for you and your team, while still reachable,

35-40k is high and quite impressive DPS in solo tests

IronCrystal · September 2017

shreek1 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

I'd love to see a full build and gear list of how people are getting 40k DPS parses on a MagSorc. Self-buffed, I highly doubt it.

Having seen a lot of DPS parse screenshots from MagSorcs, I typically see this:
Someone is grouped with them and buffing using Combat Prayer, Worm Cult, and Elemental Drain.

The player themselves are using Spell Power potions and vMA weapons.

All of these are going to inflate numbers. In a group, DPS may or may not be getting none, all or some external buffs. Assume that any competent Tank is at least applying Major Breach. But as a Sorc I cannot assume I'm getting Combat Prayer or Worm Cult and I'm going to be slotting Power Surge and not chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds. On a DPS test I'm casting Elemental Drain myself. And very, very few players have Maelstrom Staffs.

So when you read these DPS parses you have to look at the details and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Chugging potions and vMA weapons inflate numbers? Oh really now. I thought we use them because they look cool.

Of *** course they are going to use these. The whole point is to gauge how much damage they would do in a group setting (as a base damage line, it gets increased in group).

As for Combat prayer, yeah that's a no-no.

Nothing wrong with worm as it just helps with regen and you'll have the regen buff in a group anyways.

Ele Drain is very common, but its expected to mention you had ele drain when you state your parse.

NyassaV · September 2017

If you aren't doing 20k plus you are doing something very wrong. If you aren't doing 25k+ please don't do vet content with serious players (But by all means casually go through, there are people who just like doing them). Ideally you want 30k+

Trashkan · September 2017

Hollery wrote: »

If you aren't doing 20k plus you are doing something very wrong. If you aren't doing 25k+ please don't do vet content with serious players (But by all means casually go through, there are people who just like doing them). Ideally you want 30k+

So 30k on a 25 million dummy or a 3 million dummy. The reason why I ask is I have a set that does easy 28k-30k on a 3 million dummy. He only does 24k on a 6 million and even less on a 25 million dummy solo. My other set is a solid 25-26k forever and ever. The guild I am trying to join requires me to hit higher numbers on a lower dummy which i.m.o is very tunnel vision way of going about it. Is this how every group is judging now days. Cause I can cheese the crap out of builds to only last 90 seconds on these garbage builds if that's what the community wants.

LuminaLilly · September 2017

Flaminir wrote: »

People already do this...

Its generally accepted that while the target dummies don't give yoau a real world fight scenario, and therefore test how good the player is at coping with that, it will give you a comparatively stable test environment to compare gear sets, rotations, and the players ability to perform them.

All dps numbers are all single target (Should never be aoe), and you do include executes (why wouldn't you?).

Some use the 3m dummy, others the 6m dummy to better replicate a slightly longer fight.

General wisdom is that these dps tests are done solo with no other buffs except ele drain to provide the standard taunt debuff and help sustain (For magicka users).

As far as what good single target DPS is.. people playing in different circles and different content may have a different view on this, but looking at the big picture including everything from solo, to pug dungeons, to vet trials I'd say roughly:
Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

@Flaminir that's a very decent rubric to go by. Unfortunately the Xbox community has grown into a bunch of elitist fools who lie about their dps numbers as per my thread here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368917/lying-about-your-target-skeleton-dps-test#latest

The Xbox community rubric is this:

Below 15k = scrub
15-20k = scrub
20-30k = scrub
30-40k = scrub
40k+ = MAYBE I'll let you I to my vet trials guild.

Orjix · September 2017

My magblade only pulls 15-17k DPS on single target

Zerok · September 2017

15k single target should be the minimum for any casual DPS. A DPS who does not reach 15k should probably not queue for veteran dungeons with the grouping tool.

Now, I know some elitists say that a DPS needs 30k+ single target, and it's probably true for veteran trials, but it's completely unrealistic for ~95% of the DPS who play casually.

Flaminir · September 2017

LuminaLilly wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

People already do this...

Its generally accepted that while the target dummies don't give yoau a real world fight scenario, and therefore test how good the player is at coping with that, it will give you a comparatively stable test environment to compare gear sets, rotations, and the players ability to perform them.

All dps numbers are all single target (Should never be aoe), and you do include executes (why wouldn't you?).

Some use the 3m dummy, others the 6m dummy to better replicate a slightly longer fight.

General wisdom is that these dps tests are done solo with no other buffs except ele drain to provide the standard taunt debuff and help sustain (For magicka users).

As far as what good single target DPS is.. people playing in different circles and different content may have a different view on this, but looking at the big picture including everything from solo, to pug dungeons, to vet trials I'd say roughly:
Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

@Flaminir that's a very decent rubric to go by. Unfortunately the Xbox community has grown into a bunch of elitist fools who lie about their dps numbers as per my thread here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368917/lying-about-your-target-skeleton-dps-test#latest

The Xbox community rubric is this:
Below 15k = scrub

15-20k = scrub

20-30k = scrub

30-40k = scrub

40k+ = MAYBE I'll let you I to my vet trials guild.

Each to their own I guess... if somebody wants to make a guild where the only aim is to hit top of the leaderboards and only want the top 0.1% DPS players & thats how they get their fun then fair enough.

I'm not sure that fits the majority in the game personally, and isn't required to complete any of the content or perform to the level that 99% of the player base are aiming for.

Yet some would have you believe anything less than 40k is abnormal when the opposite is true.

shreek1 · September 2017

Chugging potions and vMA weapons inflate numbers? Oh really now. I thought we use them because they look cool.

Of *** course they are going to use these. The whole point is to gauge how much damage they would do in a group setting (as a base damage line, it gets increased in group).

As for Combat prayer, yeah that's a no-no.

Nothing wrong with worm as it just helps with regen and you'll have the regen buff in a group anyways.

Ele Drain is very common, but its expected to mention you had ele drain when you state your parse.

Work with me here.

Assumption:
99%+ of MagSorcs are NOT going to have Maelstrom weapons. Of course, some do, and it's expected that they would use them in PVE. On a DPS parse it inflates the numbers for everyone else who doesnt.

Most MagSorcs probably aren't going to be slotting Elemental Drain. It's expected that a support class is going to slot it in a group, but my experience in Dungeons and any trial I've ever been in that no one else casts it. If I use it in my own DPS test, that means I have to give up a slot that I'd have another skill in when I PVE. Meaning, I substitute Ele Drain for Hardened Ward when I do my test. So my test gives me higher numbers, but unrealistically so because I can't depend on it being cast by someone else in my group and I'm not going to slot it in PVE because I need shields.

Doubt:
I doubt that the vast majority of MagSorcs are going to be chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds in PVE. If you do this, then that means you're not going to be slotting Power Surge, nor would you need Inner Light. Thus, you free up 2+ slots on your bars to use extra skills. Plus, you're going to be carrying 200k worth of Spell Power potions. This may be a perfectly viable solution for some players. But not for the 99%.

People have been posting parses because they're doing comparison testing of gear and Mundus setups to identify the new BiS. Everyone looks at the DPS number in the top-left. If I'm testing gear and skill rotations, it's very likely I'm not going to have a guildy around to buff me for an evening.

I may not get a healer that has Worm cult.
I may not get a healer that has SPC.
I may not get a healer that uses Combat Prayer.

My point is that when you see a DPS tests with a MagSorc getting external buffs from another player to simulate a Group situation, or using maelstrom staffs it doesn't really help the vast majority of people who are looking to improve their rotation and give them something realistic to shoot for.

Artis · September 2017

shreek1 wrote: »

Work with me here.

I'll work with you.

shreek1 wrote: »

Assumption:
99%+ of MagSorcs are NOT going to have Maelstrom weapons. Of course, some do, and it's expected that they would use them in PVE. On a DPS parse it inflates the numbers for everyone else who doesnt.

What do you think is the goal of a parse? To show how much THAT character can output. It doesn't inflate number for anyone else. You will have your own parse. You can expect that your numbers will be a little different depending on what gear you're using. Your goal is to maximize your own numbers.

Besides, these days vma weapons won't change your DPS THAT MUCH compared to just a random/crafted staff (at least you can choose the trait).

shreek1 wrote: »

Most MagSorcs probably aren't going to be slotting Elemental Drain. It's expected that a support class is going to slot it in a group, but my experience in Dungeons and any trial I've ever been in that no one else casts it. If I use it in my own DPS test, that means I have to give up a slot that I'd have another skill in when I PVE. Meaning, I substitute Ele Drain for Hardened Ward when I do my test. So my test gives me higher numbers, but unrealistically so because I can't depend on it being cast by someone else in my group and I'm not going to slot it in PVE because I need shields.

You got it all the opposite way. Slotting ele drain REDUCES your dps compared to your actual DPS, because you are wasting global cooldowns casting it, while in real fight you will cast a skill instead. Not to mention group buff and debuff. Ele drain's uptime should be at around 100% in any decent group. If your experience is what you describe - then it's time to find a better guild. OR at least ask somebody to slot ele drain before giving up on them? Another option - major breech is provided by tanks using pierce armor anyway and minor magickasteal is provided by templar's aura - this combo replaces ele drain.

So no, your test shouldn't give you higher numbers, because it won't take into account group buff/debuff. However, major breech and minor magicka steal are expected in any group and there's no reason to test without them. Furthermore, another goal of tests is to compare builds and see where you stand. From that point of view - you should test in the same conditions as everyone else. Kinda like they measure length with different devices everywhere, but they all are scaled to the etalon.

shreek1 wrote: »

Doubt:
I doubt that the vast majority of MagSorcs are going to be chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds in PVE. If you do this, then that means you're not going to be slotting Power Surge, nor would you need Inner Light. Thus, you free up 2+ slots on your bars to use extra skills. Plus, you're going to be carrying 200k worth of Spell Power potions. This may be a perfectly viable solution for some players. But not for the 99%.

They absolutely have to be chugging potions to keep up Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy 100% of the time. Yes, you should replace Power Surge to free that GCD so you can cast DPS skills there. Yes, you will still need Inner Light, because of how much max magicka it gives you (read its description again, also read mages guild passives). You will probably use shield instead of IL on the back bar, though. You don't need to carry 200k worth of spell potions. That's around 7 stacks. You only need to carry like 1 stack. With the cooldown of 45 secs and of course only using them in combat (so you won't drink them every 45 sec - you'll run between mobs, maybe have pauses before bosses discussing something, etc), that will be enough for several hours of combat. I use couple of stacks per week for example and I raid twice a week usually and run dungeons every now and then.

Why is it not a viable solution for 99%? Can't they make/buy potions? That's a very confusing statement.

shreek1 wrote: »

People have been posting parses because they're doing comparison testing of gear and Mundus setups to identify the new BiS. Everyone looks at the DPS number in the top-left. If I'm testing gear and skill rotations, it's very likely I'm not going to have a guildy around to buff me for an evening.

I may not get a healer that has Worm cult.
I may not get a healer that has SPC.
I may not get a healer that uses Combat Prayer.

Where is the problem? Are YOU looking for BiS? Probably not. The majority will use findings of others.

Also you don't need a healer with those things to figure out which gear, skill rotation is better. You just compare them relative to each other. More buff will simply scale them.

And regarding skill rotation? That's done on paper, no need to test in most cases. You find all dots whose tooltip shows the number higher than your spammable's tooltip value. You then apply all these dots and use your spammable, reapply dots as needed. The only things you need to test is which of the 2 spammables is better, for example. Or gear combo. But that's all done AFTER you figured out and practiced your rotation which WILL NOT CHANGE.

shreek1 wrote: »

My point is that when you see a DPS tests with a MagSorc getting external buffs from another player to simulate a Group situation, or using maelstrom staffs it doesn't really help the vast majority of people who are looking to improve their rotation and give them something realistic to shoot for.

Of course it helps. Those tests show the rotation and numbers you can get with the setup used (possibly - BiS setup). You then shoot to get your numbers as close as possible to those.

The way it's done is:

1) Repeat their rotation.
2) Get it down so you never screw it up and can maintain it.
3) Make sure you weave attacks perfectly (very easy to do on a target dummy).
4) These are the numbers for your gear setup. Now feel free to use that rotation with other setups and see what the highest number can be in similar conditions (same buffs/debuffs).

If you are one of that "play as you want" crowd? Then just try your rotation and gear setups and compare them with each other. The numbers to shoot for, again, are to be as close as possible to BiS. Just make sure you weave attacks and time your skills well.