DPS numberbragging and target scope

Eiagra · September 2017

So, one of the things a lot of folk tout as critical (for good reason) is how big your numbers are when doing the DPS.

Problem is, I feel like there is some missing context...

Something I've noticed while assessing my own combat efficacy is that it's extremely easy for my numbers to shoot through the roof if there's a large group of trash mobs I'm striking with multiple AoEs. Against a single target, this diminishes quite a bit comparatively. I feel like I do okay, but then I wonder about what folk are doing to get the ridiculous numbers they are claiming in forums or chat.

Thus, a practice I would like to start seeing players do when touting what recommended DPS is -- and perhaps some of you who have strong grasp of the game mechanics can also clarify in this post -- is to post single-target DPS, along with how you are achieving it -- and WHEN you are achieving it (since Executes can also inflate this number). Adding multiple targets, while great for inflating numbers, doesn't help learning players, and can cause confusion when someone boasts of 60K DPS, when they're struggling to achieve 10-12K -- and the core reason is because the boaster sitting on 6 target dummies instead of 1.

So, what is considered "Good" single-target DPS to aim for? What's considered "Maximized" (i.e. glass cannon builds designed for pure DPS) single-target DPS? I ask about single-target because that can always be scaled up, but it's very hard to scale down multi-target DPS due to varying conditions.

danno8 · September 2017

IMO- Good single target - absolutely unassisted target dummy- DPS should be 30k+ for a build designed for pure DPS. Some classes/stamina/magicka will hit this easily, others will have a harder time. The range for the above scenario seems to be 37k-45k for excellent / experienced players.

As soon as you add in a person assisting with Elemental Drain + other buffs/debuffs it will just go up from there. I like the baseline above though as it gives a good idea of whether you can carry out a tight rotation and are geared properly.

ChunkyCat · September 2017

I have the biggliest DPS. You wouldn't believe it, but it's great. The best ever. It's very good.

LordGavus · September 2017

When testing your dps it's best to use a target dummy. Start full health and kill it.

Dps against groups doesn't count and neither does burst.

Flaminir · September 2017

People already do this...

Its generally accepted that while the target dummies don't give yoau a real world fight scenario, and therefore test how good the player is at coping with that, it will give you a comparatively stable test environment to compare gear sets, rotations, and the players ability to perform them.

All dps numbers are all single target (Should never be aoe), and you do include executes (why wouldn't you?).

Some use the 3m dummy, others the 6m dummy to better replicate a slightly longer fight.

General wisdom is that these dps tests are done solo with no other buffs except ele drain to provide the standard taunt debuff and help sustain (For magicka users).

As far as what good single target DPS is.. people playing in different circles and different content may have a different view on this, but looking at the big picture including everything from solo, to pug dungeons, to vet trials I'd say roughly:

Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content
15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game
20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics
30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game
40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

kylewwefan · September 2017

I'm an 850CP scrub that barely gets 20K DPS on most toons. My best is 28K on one toon with much help from "pro" type player.

There's a lot more going on in dungeons than a target skeleton.

So, I'd say shoot for 20K solo on the dummy. And this should be Sustainable so when your dodging and blocking and shielding...everything you find yourself doing in trials or dungeons, you can still keep that up.

Remember to use the group finder even in premades. It adds a significant amount of weapon/Spell damage.

Many will likely tell you 30K DPS. That's a good number to shoot for also, but not the end of the world if you can't.

SoLooney · September 2017

Numbers you get on a target dummy dont mean much and means even less after HoTR. Its there to practice rotation and comparing gear sets because you can stand in one place and not worry about mechanics, perfect testing grounds. People wear ridiculous sets, have the lover mundus when real settings you would have warrior or apprentice, and people beating down the 3mil dummy as fast they can without managing resources because its a short fight

Group dps means more and a more accurate test is having your 12 man group beat on a centurion dummy, not completely accurate but it will give you and your group an idea on where they stand in terms of damage.

Moltyr · September 2017

I've found that stamina DPS is much easier when it comes to getting 35k+ DPS. Even after HotR, my stamblade was making 40k+ with NMG/VO/Veli and sharpened daggers. I switched that toon to magicka and regretted it at first, but am making a little bit less DPS. Probably 40k is the MAX I could get if I didn't mess up my rotation. But typically I get 35k-ish DPS with my magblade. That's honestly plenty of DPS, obviously the more you have the better, but I don't think any trial group I've had scoffed at 35k DPS.

HatchetHaro · September 2017

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

shreek1 · September 2017

HatchetHaro wrote: »

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

I'd love to see a full build and gear list of how people are getting 40k DPS parses on a MagSorc. Self-buffed, I highly doubt it.

Having seen a lot of DPS parse screenshots from MagSorcs, I typically see this:

Someone is grouped with them and buffing using Combat Prayer, Worm Cult, and Elemental Drain.
The player themselves are using Spell Power potions and vMA weapons.

All of these are going to inflate numbers. In a group, DPS may or may not be getting none, all or some external buffs. Assume that any competent Tank is at least applying Major Breach. But as a Sorc I cannot assume I'm getting Combat Prayer or Worm Cult and I'm going to be slotting Power Surge and not chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds. On a DPS test I'm casting Elemental Drain myself. And very, very few players have Maelstrom Staffs.

So when you read these DPS parses you have to look at the details and adjust your expectations accordingly.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2017

Flaminir wrote: »

Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

I'd posit, based on my experience with new PvErs in dungeons, that 10k DPS is enough for almost every nonDLC vet dungeon in the game, as long as you actually play mechanics. It'll be slow, but its doable.

Other than that, looks about right.

parkham · September 2017

@Flaminir

How about something real world, for the common idiot like me?

Consider:

A 300 CP solo character using only crafted equipment and some epic, relevant, cheap jewelry and can sustain in a long fight.

What type of single-target and mob-target DPS could someone possibly achieve?

edited for clarity

gard · September 2017

When discussing DPS don't most people assume single target self buffed, unless specifically stated otherwise?

Asardes · September 2017

I do my tests using dropped pots and a skill for major sorcery/brutality if the one I regularly use in my rotation for DPD doesn't provide that already. Last time I checked I was between 27-30K self sustained. I see no point of burning trough expensive pots just to train your rotation. If I use those in real trials I just replace the buff skill with a DPS one and weave LA instead of HA between skills. That's the only reason for training dummy: to get used to/test rotations.

Beardimus · September 2017

Really it means eff all for the bulk of the content. Trials family it means something, most other content very little really. Talking about it unsolicited is generally just epeen

shreek1 · September 2017

gard wrote: »

When discussing DPS don't most people assume single target self buffed, unless specifically stated otherwise?

One would think so, but when you look at the posted images and read the text later on you do the detective work and find that isn't the case with their parse. @parkham had a good point.

Horowonnoe · September 2017

shreek1 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

I'd love to see a full build and gear list of how people are getting 40k DPS parses on a MagSorc. Self-buffed, I highly doubt it.

Having seen a lot of DPS parse screenshots from MagSorcs, I typically see this:
Someone is grouped with them and buffing using Combat Prayer, Worm Cult, and Elemental Drain.

The player themselves are using Spell Power potions and vMA weapons.

All of these are going to inflate numbers. In a group, DPS may or may not be getting none, all or some external buffs. Assume that any competent Tank is at least applying Major Breach. But as a Sorc I cannot assume I'm getting Combat Prayer or Worm Cult and I'm going to be slotting Power Surge and not chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds. On a DPS test I'm casting Elemental Drain myself. And very, very few players have Maelstrom Staffs.

So when you read these DPS parses you have to look at the details and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Spell power pots and vma weapons are totally acceptable in a dps parse. I feel naked if i have less than 2000 spellpower potions on my character at all times. And most cases, no, there aren't people buffing you with combat prayer on a parse. Also worm isn't a buff - it's to help your sustain.

sevomd69 · September 2017

shreek1 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

I'd love to see a full build and gear list of how people are getting 40k DPS parses on a MagSorc. Self-buffed, I highly doubt it.

Having seen a lot of DPS parse screenshots from MagSorcs, I typically see this:
Someone is grouped with them and buffing using Combat Prayer, Worm Cult, and Elemental Drain.

The player themselves are using Spell Power potions and vMA weapons.

All of these are going to inflate numbers. In a group, DPS may or may not be getting none, all or some external buffs. Assume that any competent Tank is at least applying Major Breach. But as a Sorc I cannot assume I'm getting Combat Prayer or Worm Cult and I'm going to be slotting Power Surge and not chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds. On a DPS test I'm casting Elemental Drain myself. And very, very few players have Maelstrom Staffs.

So when you read these DPS parses you have to look at the details and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Don't forget the SPC proc...

kuma82 · September 2017

parkham wrote: »

@Flaminir

How about something real world, for the common idiot like me?

Consider:

A 300 CP solo character using only crafted equipment and some epic, relevant, cheap jewelry and can sustain in a long fight.

What type of single-target and mob-target DPS could someone possibly achieve?

edited for clarity

I can give you my own findings. I have 5/5 hundings, 4/5 night mothers gaze, and 3 swamp raiders jewelry front bar. Hundings and night mothers swap numbers on backbar. I run full DW set up. Everything I crafted except jewelry, which is normally cheap. With no potion buffs, outside buffs, no ultimate usage, just health and stam food buff I can hit 22k consistently on target dummy.
I run a stam dk, Heavy attack front bar, light attack weaving backbar for buffs and debufdfs and to add night mothers debuff for front bar which usually lasts through half of it. Not ideal at all to run full DW but I love DW characters and I made that work. Oh and I'm only 330 cp.
Also I went this route as I hate what a lot of the best armor looks like, lol so I could at least like my character. I will be switching nmg and swamp raiders to Sunderflame if I can ever get groups and find the pieces, along with adding a monster set. My goal was above 20k so I wouldn't be a drag on a group while still being able to enjoy my character and playstyle.

Vaoh · September 2017

Flaminir wrote: »

People already do this...

Its generally accepted that while the target dummies don't give yoau a real world fight scenario, and therefore test how good the player is at coping with that, it will give you a comparatively stable test environment to compare gear sets, rotations, and the players ability to perform them.

All dps numbers are all single target (Should never be aoe), and you do include executes (why wouldn't you?).

Some use the 3m dummy, others the 6m dummy to better replicate a slightly longer fight.

General wisdom is that these dps tests are done solo with no other buffs except ele drain to provide the standard taunt debuff and help sustain (For magicka users).

As far as what good single target DPS is.. people playing in different circles and different content may have a different view on this, but looking at the big picture including everything from solo, to pug dungeons, to vet trials I'd say roughly:
Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

^Exactly as @Flaminir says

These are about the most accurate meanings we can give DPS values.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2017

shreek1 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

I'd love to see a full build and gear list of how people are getting 40k DPS parses on a MagSorc. Self-buffed, I highly doubt it.

Having seen a lot of DPS parse screenshots from MagSorcs, I typically see this:
Someone is grouped with them and buffing using Combat Prayer, Worm Cult, and Elemental Drain.

The player themselves are using Spell Power potions and vMA weapons.

All of these are going to inflate numbers. In a group, DPS may or may not be getting none, all or some external buffs. Assume that any competent Tank is at least applying Major Breach. But as a Sorc I cannot assume I'm getting Combat Prayer or Worm Cult and I'm going to be slotting Power Surge and not chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds. On a DPS test I'm casting Elemental Drain myself. And very, very few players have Maelstrom Staffs.

So when you read these DPS parses you have to look at the details and adjust your expectations accordingly.

A magsorc completely self-buffed is not going to get 40k dps on the 6 mil dummy this patch (assuming they are not using mine cheese). Top of the top are going to get 35k or a little bit more depending on how lucky they are with crits.

generalmyrick · September 2017

!!!QUESTION!!!

i hit 17k on a 3 mil dumm with NO HELP, (no drain, no potions, no nothing)...WHAT would that translate to if i had assistance?

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · September 2017

Flaminir wrote: »

People already do this...

Its generally accepted that while the target dummies don't give yoau a real world fight scenario, and therefore test how good the player is at coping with that, it will give you a comparatively stable test environment to compare gear sets, rotations, and the players ability to perform them.

All dps numbers are all single target (Should never be aoe), and you do include executes (why wouldn't you?).

Some use the 3m dummy, others the 6m dummy to better replicate a slightly longer fight.

General wisdom is that these dps tests are done solo with no other buffs except ele drain to provide the standard taunt debuff and help sustain (For magicka users).

As far as what good single target DPS is.. people playing in different circles and different content may have a different view on this, but looking at the big picture including everything from solo, to pug dungeons, to vet trials I'd say roughly:
Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

True to an extent but class and gear play a big role.

I'm fairly certain Mag warden cannot achieve 40k probably 30-35k if absolutely flawless.
Stam warden likely struggle for 40k on dummy too, as do magplar, magdk.

For instance someone may get 40k with a BiS stamblade setup (where upto 50k is the limit) and another may get 37k on a mag Templar... meaning actually the temp likely has a much better rotation than stam nb but it's harder to get higher numbers depending on class.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2017

generalmyrick wrote: »

!!!QUESTION!!!

i hit 17k on a 3 mil dumm with NO HELP, (no drain, no potions, no nothing)...WHAT would that translate to if i had assistance?

Drain will add at least 15-20% more damage.

Asardes · September 2017

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

!!!QUESTION!!!

i hit 17k on a 3 mil dumm with NO HELP, (no drain, no potions, no nothing)...WHAT would that translate to if i had assistance?

Drain will add at least 15-20% more damage.

Major breach alone is 10.5% more damage, but indirectly the increase is higher since the return from magicka steal allows for a faster rotation with less HA weaving.

FakeFox · September 2017

Usually you only talk about singletarget, it is the most relevant and the most consistent. But there are still tons of variables and you can barely compare it. One thing a lot of weaker players seem to forget when they see high DPS posts is how important good support is. 30-50% of the DPS in raids can come down to support in coordinated groups. Most DDs I run with doing 50k+ in raids are more around 30-35k in solo DPS tests.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2017

If you are going to brag about DPS, it had better be Single Target. You also need to define your variables. Self buffed, someone givine Breach/fracture, full raid, etc. The same stam rotation that does 35k self buffed on a dummy can hit low 50s in a good group on certain trial fights.

4 most common types of parses that I think are relevant. 1. Self buffed stamina parse on dummy, this typically has no fracture. Most classes can hit at least 35K. 2. Self buffed magic dummy parse, usually means you run your own ele drain. Again most classes can get to 35K+ with this. 3. Someone else provides Major Breach or Fracture for your on a dummy. This will typically inflate a stam parse more than magic. 4. Full raid parse on a stationary fight with FULL buffs. Probably the best one in a vet trial is Varlarial assuming you arent on add duty and can just stay on boss. Stam single target is in the 50's to even low 60s, and magic is in the mid 40's to low 50's on some classes. Nobody breaks 50k ST without some help.

HatchetHaro · September 2017

shreek1 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

With major fracture/breach, ~40k is what most end-game raiders can achieve on a 6mil target skeleton.

I'd love to see a full build and gear list of how people are getting 40k DPS parses on a MagSorc. Self-buffed, I highly doubt it.

Having seen a lot of DPS parse screenshots from MagSorcs, I typically see this:
Someone is grouped with them and buffing using Combat Prayer, Worm Cult, and Elemental Drain.

The player themselves are using Spell Power potions and vMA weapons.

All of these are going to inflate numbers. In a group, DPS may or may not be getting none, all or some external buffs. Assume that any competent Tank is at least applying Major Breach. But as a Sorc I cannot assume I'm getting Combat Prayer or Worm Cult and I'm going to be slotting Power Surge and not chugging Spell Power potions every 45 seconds. On a DPS test I'm casting Elemental Drain myself. And very, very few players have Maelstrom Staffs.

So when you read these DPS parses you have to look at the details and adjust your expectations accordingly.

I said "~40k", as in "about 40k", as well as "with major fracture/breach", as in "with pierce armor or elemental drain".

All classes can and will perform differently and I cannot say exactly what those numbers are, though I can say for certain that stamina dps outdamage magicka dps by a bit; ~41k for stamina, ~39k for magicka. Wardens are an exception; they're not up to par with other classes when it comes to dps. Stamblades, on the other hand, can parse up to even ~47k solo on a 3mil dummy. A quick search through the Tamriel Foundry theorycrafting forums or any serious raiding Discord server will net you parses on every class. And yes, magsorcs can reach 39k just fine.

Your listing of people running Maelstrom weapons and chugging weapon and spell power potions as a way to artificially inflate parses is just... dumb. Many people run Maelstrom weapons, and they do give an advantage over non-Maelstrom weapons, particularly the staves and the bow. It's an in-game loot item that any player is capable of running themselves, and all it requires is a bit of grinding in a solo trial. As for potions, it is actually widely accepted to chug those pots when parsing and give more realistic numbers in combat scenarios. Again, any player is capable of running those themselves.

If you wanted to list ways of artificially inflating parses, you should have mentioned using single stat food to boost magicka/stamina more than bi-stat food does. That is not an accepted parse, because it renders the player unacceptably squishy in dungeons and trials.

My point is, these numbers aren't impossible. In the end-game community, typical parsing is often done with a friend casting pierce armor / elemental drain, and using food, weapons, and potions you would use in a raid. From then on, it's just you and the skeleton.

If you truly want self-buffed parses, you would get wildly different numbers between each class based on their availability and uptime of their own major fracture/breach. It's much more inconsistent, but you should be able to ask for reference parse numbers in any serious raiding Discord server.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2017

Asardes wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

!!!QUESTION!!!

i hit 17k on a 3 mil dumm with NO HELP, (no drain, no potions, no nothing)...WHAT would that translate to if i had assistance?

Drain will add at least 15-20% more damage.

Major breach alone is 10.5% more damage, but indirectly the increase is higher since the return from magicka steal allows for a faster rotation with less HA weaving.

Major breach bypasses 10.5% damage mitigation, true. But when you compare the damage with and without this debuff, it will be more along the lines of a 15-20% increase. Bypassing %x mitigation doesn't mean you do %x much more damage. You do more.

Ir0nB34r · September 2017

Flaminir wrote: »

Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

I dunno if I agree with these exactly, but you are close. Mostly its about the "Below 15k" group. Its still very much possible to complete vet dungeons with 10k to 15k dps. It may take slightly longer, and experiences can vary per dungeon, but it is still very much possible.

Tannus15 · September 2017

The problem with "unassisted" is that certain classes have inbuilt advantages for DPS tests.

For example stam warden gets 10s major fracture from subterranean assault. This means their unassisted test looks better, but their assisted test looks pretty much the same.

A stam sorc doesn't have this. this means that stacking penetration makes their unassisted parse look better, but
then they are over penetrating when they are assisted with major fracture.

Assisted tests are the only way to really know how much damage you're going to do in a group situation.
Solo tests should only be used for checking your build against your own numbers.

Flaminir wrote: »

As far as what good single target DPS is.. people playing in different circles and different content may have a different view on this, but looking at the big picture including everything from solo, to pug dungeons, to vet trials I'd say roughly:
Below 15k = Low - Suitable for solo/normal dungeons. Will struggle in most vet end game content

15-20k Ok = Will complete 90% of the content in the game

20-30k = Good - Will complete most vet content and allow some skipping of mechanics

30-40k = Excellent - Will complete all vet content in the game

40k+ = Elite - pushing for leaderboard scores in endgame content

Really well put and the numbers are pretty much spot on from what I've seen.