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Stamina DPS Dual Wield Weapon Choices

Illurian
Illurian
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Hey all,

What's the current consensus about the weapon choices for stamina dual wield? I've been seeing Infused dagger mainhand, precise dagger offhand.

I tried to do some tests by swapping from infused dagger mainhand + sharpened axe offhand to infused dagger mainhand + precise dagger offhand, but saw an average dps drop of about 1k. This was all done on the target skeleton.

Is precise dagger offhand the "best" choice?

Also, as a side note, how much does upgrading the offhand to gold affect dps? I know that mainhand gold makes a huge difference, but what about offhand?

Thanks in advance.
Kiss the chaos.
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
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    My guess is that people use précis dagger off hand in raids and have full penetration. In four man content or solo on a dummy it might be different. For example kraghs might be betterin a non optimal penetration setting but in a trial with stam support sets velidreth or mephala might perform better.

    Atm I have used mostly infused main hand axe or dagger and now I use infused main hand dagger and sharpned dagger off hand. DPS haven't changed that much at all I will try precis dagger off hand soon just need to get a new motif.
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Jawasa wrote: »
    My guess is that people use précis dagger off hand in raids and have full penetration. In four man content or solo on a dummy it might be different. For example kraghs might be betterin a non optimal penetration setting but in a trial with stam support sets velidreth or mephala might perform better.

    Atm I have used mostly infused main hand axe or dagger and now I use infused main hand dagger and sharpned dagger off hand. DPS haven't changed that much at all I will try precis dagger off hand soon just need to get a new motif.

    That makes sense. Please post your findings when you swap your off hand!
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    As long as your main hand is an Infused dagger, your off-hand weapon can and should change depending on the situation. My advice: no matter the trait always use daggers. In raids you use Precise off-hand, literally everywhere else, if you don't have full penetration you use Sharp.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
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  • SoLooney
    SoLooney
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    main hand always: infused dagger with poison enchant, does like 3k dps by itself and will buff endless hail from the backbar maelstrom bow. off hand should be precise or sharp dagger with weapon damage enchant. you could rock axe and dagger but i prefer more crit now that i dont use thief mundus anymore
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Awesome. Will swap my axe for a dagger then. Thanks all!

    Does anyone know the difference between a gold mainhand + purple offhand and gold mainhand + gold offhand? Does the offhand being gold really majorly affect your dps?
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
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    @Illurian ok findings seem to agree with @IzakiBrotherSs on a target dummy sharp on off hand Seems to be better. Same with mundus i get better parses with lover then warrior when i'm solo. Just golded My off hand dagger will make a few dummy tests tomorrow and compair to purple.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Of course Sharp and Lover will be better on a dummy, you don't have full penetration on it. In a proper organized group with armor debuffs, Sharpened will be useless. So at this point Precise and Nirn become the other options. Since Nirn on the off hand barely gives you any damage, Precise is better for the off hand weapon. You can't test raid setups while being solo on a dummy.
    Edited by Izaki on August 31, 2017 9:25PM
    @ Izaki #PCEU
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  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
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    Thats what i mean sharp and lover will be better outside trials.
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Okay so I did some more tests on the dps dummy with infused dagger mainhand + sharpened dagger offhand and infused dagger mainhand + sharpened axe offhand.

    Axe offhand provides close to a solid 1k dps more (average about 800) than dagger offhand every time I tested it.

    Have you guys noticed anything similar? @Jawasa @IzakiBrotherSs @SoLooney
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Okay so I did some more tests on the dps dummy with infused dagger mainhand + sharpened dagger offhand and infused dagger mainhand + sharpened axe offhand.

    Axe offhand provides close to a solid 1k dps more (average about 800) than dagger offhand every time I tested it.

    Have you guys noticed anything similar? @Jawasa @IzakiBrotherSs @SoLooney

    What class are you?
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Okay so I did some more tests on the dps dummy with infused dagger mainhand + sharpened dagger offhand and infused dagger mainhand + sharpened axe offhand.

    Axe offhand provides close to a solid 1k dps more (average about 800) than dagger offhand every time I tested it.

    Have you guys noticed anything similar? @Jawasa @IzakiBrotherSs @SoLooney

    What class are you?

    Stamsorc!
    Kiss the chaos.
  • SoLooney
    SoLooney
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    i dont use an axe, dont like the low bleed proc chance and would rather prefer a stable 2.5perc more crit. if you get more dps with an axe, then go for it, its why people should seld test instead of listening to the main crowd
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    So I'm just going to post my finding's on mundus stones, namely Lover vs Warrior vs Shadow on the dummy with the follwing gear: 5 Two Fanged, 5 Hunding's, 2 Kra'gh. All gold, 6 medium 1 heavy, all divines. Infused main hand, sharp off hand, Nirnhoned vMA bow.

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/35775627
    ^ Lover mundus: 47.9k

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/35985765
    ^ Warrior mundus: 47.7k

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/35985818
    ^ Shadow mundus: 47.5k

    Now obviously this is a 3 mil dummy a very burty fight, but either way, it still shows that all mundus stones are very close and that the Lover is only slightly better than the other 2 even in a situation where no penetration debuffs are applied aside from Major Fracture.

    As far as the axe goes... Yes you will get more DPS with an Axe in a stationary single target fight. As soon as 1 add comes into the fight, the dagger isntantly becomes better. Why? Because the Axe bleed can only proc on 1 target, whereas the 5% extra crit from having a second dagger will also boost the damage of all your AoEs. Not only that, but once you get raid buffs like Warhorn into the equation, the dagger will also probably outparse the axe anyway. Another reason you might be getting better results with the axe is the fact that you're a Sorc. You don't get the 5k penetration, so you're further from the cap than I am (with Warrior and Shadow I was lacking about 3.5k penetration) and because the axe bleed ignores resistances it gives you more DPS than it normally would in a situation where the target's armor is close to nul.

    So yes for big time dummy humping where you want to get the most impressive burst, the axe is the way to go. If you want to go for big raid DPS, the dagger is going to be what you really want.

    You could also try a mace on your stam sorc. It doesn't take into account the penetration you have so Two Fanged, CP, Sharpened and Kra'gh don't affect the penetration that your mace gives. Why? Because the mace penetration is calculated off the target's current armor. Your penetration is not a debuff applied to your enemy, therefore it doesn't enter the calculation. So if you're a stam sorc without any armor debuffs applied to the target, the mace will give you 1820 penetration, which is larger than Sharpened and Kra'gh. You'll see the biggest DPS increase with maces on a dummy where no debuffs are applied (bigger than axe or dagger). So yes, Maces are definitely viable in some situations. In a perfectly organised raid group however... They suck.

    So yeah there you go
    @ Izaki #PCEU
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    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
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    @Illurian I'll try axe next time i test on a dummy. Allready have an old sharpned one i can use in offhand.

    @IzakiBrotherSs Thx for testing. :) i felt My parses got a lot better with lover on My stam dk. Might have to do with me lacking pen. I'm using veli, spriggan and hundigs. Whats also possible is that i'm getting better at the rotation. Having only played stam dk for about two weeks when i changed mundus.
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    So I'm just going to post my finding's on mundus stones, namely Lover vs Warrior vs Shadow on the dummy with the follwing gear: 5 Two Fanged, 5 Hunding's, 2 Kra'gh. All gold, 6 medium 1 heavy, all divines. Infused main hand, sharp off hand, Nirnhoned vMA bow.

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/35775627
    ^ Lover mundus: 47.9k

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/35985765
    ^ Warrior mundus: 47.7k

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/35985818
    ^ Shadow mundus: 47.5k

    Now obviously this is a 3 mil dummy a very burty fight, but either way, it still shows that all mundus stones are very close and that the Lover is only slightly better than the other 2 even in a situation where no penetration debuffs are applied aside from Major Fracture.

    As far as the axe goes... Yes you will get more DPS with an Axe in a stationary single target fight. As soon as 1 add comes into the fight, the dagger isntantly becomes better. Why? Because the Axe bleed can only proc on 1 target, whereas the 5% extra crit from having a second dagger will also boost the damage of all your AoEs. Not only that, but once you get raid buffs like Warhorn into the equation, the dagger will also probably outparse the axe anyway. Another reason you might be getting better results with the axe is the fact that you're a Sorc. You don't get the 5k penetration, so you're further from the cap than I am (with Warrior and Shadow I was lacking about 3.5k penetration) and because the axe bleed ignores resistances it gives you more DPS than it normally would in a situation where the target's armor is close to nul.

    So yes for big time dummy humping where you want to get the most impressive burst, the axe is the way to go. If you want to go for big raid DPS, the dagger is going to be what you really want.

    You could also try a mace on your stam sorc. It doesn't take into account the penetration you have so Two Fanged, CP, Sharpened and Kra'gh don't affect the penetration that your mace gives. Why? Because the mace penetration is calculated off the target's current armor. Your penetration is not a debuff applied to your enemy, therefore it doesn't enter the calculation. So if you're a stam sorc without any armor debuffs applied to the target, the mace will give you 1820 penetration, which is larger than Sharpened and Kra'gh. You'll see the biggest DPS increase with maces on a dummy where no debuffs are applied (bigger than axe or dagger). So yes, Maces are definitely viable in some situations. In a perfectly organised raid group however... They suck.

    So yeah there you go

    Thanks for the detailed analysis! Makes perfect sense!
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    @IzakiBrotherSs

    Have you done any testing on the difference in the axe bleed depending on whether it's your main hand or off hand? I normally run double daggers in raid (infused/precise) of hundings or NM, but there are some situations where I would like to use VO weapons. I have the infused dagger, but not a precise one. I do have a precise axe and sword (and sharp mace). I am wondering if axe in the off hand makes sense. It seems to be what Alcast does in his builds a lot of the time, but I have heard the bleed damage takes a big hit. Since I mostly want to use this for trash (paired with TFS when I am not responsible for NM), perhaps the precise sword would be the better choice.
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  • scipionumatia
    scipionumatia
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    does no one like dual swords for flat overall damage? I'm thinking for PVP only BTW, I realize many in this thread specifically mentioned PVE builds so I just wanted to make that clear.

    Scipio Numantia Red guard Nightblade PvP- AD
    Scipio Asiaticus Khajiit Nightblade (CRAFTER/DPS) PvE- EP
    Altmer Nightblade PvP- EP
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  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
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    Swords are better against light armor wearers and they can be better against medium armor wearers if you use a lot of resistance debuffs. They are crap though compared to maces against heavy armor.
  • scipionumatia
    scipionumatia
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    @Amdar_Godkiller I didn't look at it that way, but yeah that makes a lot of sense cause its basing penetration on a % of their resistances. Well, I'm gonna go dual swords anyway. 3 reasons
    1- heavy armor users tend to have less damage output than light and medium
    2- id rather hold the advantage for 2 armor classes than 1
    3- I hate mages lol
    Scipio Numantia Red guard Nightblade PvP- AD
    Scipio Asiaticus Khajiit Nightblade (CRAFTER/DPS) PvE- EP
    Altmer Nightblade PvP- EP
    Fueoculto Breton Templar (DPS) PvE- EP
    Rasoculto Orc Dragon Knight PvP- EP
    Caethus Argonian Templar (HEAL) PvE- EP
    Vale Oso Nord Sorc (DPS) PvE- AD
    Sir-Galahad-the-pure Altmer Sorc (DPS) PvE- EP
    Scipionumantine Imperial Templar PvP- EP
    Un-bearable Imperial Warden PVP- EP
    Vale Bear Altmer Warden PvP- EP
    Baits-All-Zergs Argonian Dragon knight PVP- DC
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    @IzakiBrotherSs

    Have you done any testing on the difference in the axe bleed depending on whether it's your main hand or off hand? I normally run double daggers in raid (infused/precise) of hundings or NM, but there are some situations where I would like to use VO weapons. I have the infused dagger, but not a precise one. I do have a precise axe and sword (and sharp mace). I am wondering if axe in the off hand makes sense. It seems to be what Alcast does in his builds a lot of the time, but I have heard the bleed damage takes a big hit. Since I mostly want to use this for trash (paired with TFS when I am not responsible for NM), perhaps the precise sword would be the better choice.

    @Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Whatever you hear from people about having an Axe in whatever hand, the truth is very simple: the proc chance is 8% no matter in which hand you use your weapon. So yes, you can use an Axe on the off hand without any loss of Bleed procs or loss of DPS.
    To be honest... I've found that using VO on the front bar only is basically pointless on literally every class. Most front bar skills are very cheap already as they are either DoTs (about 1.5k stam for most) or spammables (about 2k for most), and in my case of a Stamblade, I have 3 total skill casts that are free while on the front bar (Soul Harvest and 2 Assassin's Scourge procs) which means that VO front bar is only applying to my already very cheap Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade and Rending Slashes. The only costly skill most classes have on their front bar is Deadly Cloak. So if I were you, I'd either use VO as the main 5 piece, or I wouldn't use VO at all, since it doesn't support the group, its not the best damage option and its not the best setup for sustain either.
    Now I don't know you gear setup, but since you want to use VO front bar for trash packs, I'd say the mace would be more efficient overall, with the sword coming second. The mace can offer a lot of penetration for adds that aren't debuffed with Major Fracture or Sunderflame (NMG and Alkosh would be applied to all of them) offering you around 1.2k penetration which paired with Sharpened would give you the highest damage increase for trash packs. You probably know this, but in case you don't, maces don't take into account your own penetration but rather the targets armor in their calculation, so things like Sharp, TFS, CP and Kra'gh don't affect the penetration that the mace provides.
    Edited by Izaki on September 6, 2017 10:56PM
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    does no one like dual swords for flat overall damage? I'm thinking for PVP only BTW, I realize many in this thread specifically mentioned PVE builds so I just wanted to make that clear.

    Depends on what you're looking for in your build I would say. I tend to go with daggers since they proide the one thing CP can't: crit chance. And you kill people with crits.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • SquareSausage
    SquareSausage
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    @Amdar_Godkiller I didn't look at it that way, but yeah that makes a lot of sense cause its basing penetration on a % of their resistances. Well, I'm gonna go dual swords anyway. 3 reasons
    1- heavy armor users tend to have less damage output than light and medium
    2- id rather hold the advantage for 2 armor classes than 1
    3- I hate mages lol

    In that case I'd prob go nirnhoned sword main hand for the extra damage against shielded enemies and sharp dagger offhand as this weapon does less damage than the main hand so feel the extra damage from a sword would be wasted.
    Breakfast King
    PS4 EU
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