Please Re-Examine the Presence of Immovable Pots in PVP
GrumpyDuckling
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Being able to entirely negate CC and break free for an extended period of time in a game that often requires players to CC and then burst enemies down creates too much imbalance when one party is using an immovable pot and the other party is not.
The presence and usage of immovable pots replaces defensive tactics such as timely blocking to prevent CC, timely defensive-to-offensive counter attacks, and smart/timely reapplication of buffs during combat. This whole "pop immovable and you're good to do whatever you want for 15+ seconds" thing tips the scales too far in favor of the person using the pot.
Exploring and expanding the pro/con usage of immovable pots might prove beneficial. Changes don't have to be drastic, but they are necessary. Example: Maybe using an immovable pot also slows characters movement speed by [x]%.
The presence and usage of immovable pots replaces defensive tactics such as timely blocking to prevent CC, timely defensive-to-offensive counter attacks, and smart/timely reapplication of buffs during combat. This whole "pop immovable and you're good to do whatever you want for 15+ seconds" thing tips the scales too far in favor of the person using the pot.
Exploring and expanding the pro/con usage of immovable pots might prove beneficial. Changes don't have to be drastic, but they are necessary. Example: Maybe using an immovable pot also slows characters movement speed by [x]%.
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Nemeliom✭✭✭✭That's the way it works. You have your advantages and disadvantages of using THAT potion instead of other.
You have to choose between that one or a bursting one, or detect, etc depending on the situation, and it's available for every party, so it's not a disadvantage.Baradur Morker - Level 50 Bosmer Nightblade
Le-Duck - Level 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight
Boom-Stormer - Level 50 High Elf Sorcerer
Nemeliom the Great - Level 50 Redguard Warden
Crazy Little Maggie - Level 50 High Elf Templar24 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I could see a slight duration nerf for Immovable pots, but other than that I think they are fine.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.6 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seems balance to me. In fact I'd consider adding snare/root immunity too. But maybe that should be a different effect.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.14 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
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I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.
PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
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I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.
Then toss in destro ultimate with gap closer spam.0 -
Gothren✭✭✭✭✭That's the way it works. You have your advantages and disadvantages of using THAT potion instead of other.
You have to choose between that one or a bursting one, or detect, etc depending on the situation, and it's available for every party, so it's not a disadvantage.
^ took the words right outta my mouth.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That's the way it works. You have your advantages and disadvantages of using THAT potion instead of other.
You have to choose between that one or a bursting one, or detect, etc depending on the situation, and it's available for every party, so it's not a disadvantage.
I understand what your point is, but there isn't balanced value between potions. For example, an immovable potion has more overall use to more builds than a detect potion, which in my experience is more situational. Only Nightblades can easily re-enter stealth once they are engaged in combat, so what is a detect potion going to do for you against a Templar? I'd much rather use immovable 90% of the time.
Yes, everyone has access to immovable pots, but the point is that I think they are too strong in their current state. For example, there are people mentioning lingering health. I'd much rather fight against someone using lingering health, because it's easier to counter. Immovable is much harder to counter than other pots, which is why I think it needs to be re-evaluated.Edited by GrumpyDuckling on September 6, 2017 4:44PM0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
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I run speed + lingering health, but there's no denying that immov pots are better for 1v1 situations, especially when paired with clever alchemist. The burst potential is just too high with no way to mitigate.Immovable pots aren't even the best pot. Speed+Lingering health is flat out better, damage+crit+resource is better on builds that don't have native buffs or have competitive bars, and that's not mentioning situational things like invis or detect pots.
Alchemist only gives you more damage than a spell power pot if you have under 3k spell damage, otherwise you need a bar slot for major sorcery. Then you need to account for major prophecy or use a bar slot for it. For some classes, with easy native access to these buffs or bar space for toggles, immovable pots can shine.
However, I think a build that's getting 2 skill slots free'd up from sorcery/prophecy and using those slots for good utility can present similar challenges. I could run immovable pots on my mageblade but then I lose a skill slot to get major sorcery and I lose out in 10% crit or a second skill slot I use one of those slots for ele drain which covers enough of my sustain that I drop witchmother for tri-food, being CC immune isn't more beneficial than that sort of utility to a LOT of builds.Edited by Lexxypwns on September 6, 2017 4:52PM4 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭My (un)favorite are the guys who use Immovable potions and 3x potion boost glyphs. 99.9% uptime on CC immunity. How is that not OP?
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HiImRex✭✭✭✭✭Meh there's no unifying vision for balance in this game. If CC / Break-free / and CC immunity are mechanics that are core to ZOS' vision for PVP balance in this game, they would have carefully weighed the value of CC immunity and then balanced everything that grants CC immunity (outside of break free) around how much value it gives you. Did they? No. This kind of design extends to every aspect of the game.
What's ZOS' balance for offence vs. defense? Some of the best defensive ultis are universally cheaper than the best offensive ultis, while having similar or greater efficacy to them. Is this ZOS' vision of combat balance? Did they actually go into a meeting and have the whole room look at each other and go "Yes this game should be mostly about playing around cheap spammable defensive ultis that negate more expensive offensive ultis on demand"? No, I highly doubt they did. There just wasn't really a coherent vision. There isn't a coherent vision of how the pvp in this game should be balanced. I'm guessing there never were, at least nothing that is consistently actionable across a long development term.
"Fast paced" "action combat" aren't principles that can guide a development team to craft a coherent and balanced combat system. But that's pretty much all the devs have designed around it seems.0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
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Maybe cause you are giving up 500 or so spell/weapon dmge, or rgen?My (un)favorite are the guys who use Immovable potions and 3x potion boost glyphs. 99.9% uptime on CC immunity. How is that not OP?When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.15 -
Enderus✭✭Pretty sure that Unstoppable/Immovable potions don't make you immune to immobilize or snares at all, just disabling effects (hard CC). So even then it's only providing partial CC protection for a limited time. That is of course unless the person's also running Forward Momentum or is dodge-rolling and maintaining the 2-second soft-CC protection.
They really just need to do a proper clean up on all the various rules regarding CC mechanics and immunity honestly.6 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
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Regen isn't as important when you don't have to use resources to break free from CC's and can guarantee that your heavy attacks which restore resources won't be interrupted by a CC. There are other ways to stack weapon/spell damage other than jewelry.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
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@SanTii.92 potion boost + immovable is a form of regen. Not breaking free every 7 seconds saves a TON of stamina. You still think there is a trade-off there? I don't.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They're fine. You almost get half the length of that immunity pot by a regular CC break. If you think the effect is strong, by all means run them, but to do so you have to give up other potentially valuable buffs.
I have no problem fighting people who use an immovable pot against me. In fact, I almost kind of prefer it as a templar, my CCs are lousy to begin with and I'd prefer them not to get health from their pot or their off resource.Edited by Joy_Division on September 6, 2017 5:16PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.7 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »They're fine. You almost get half the length of that immunity pot by a regular CC break. If you think the effect is strong, by all means run them, but to do so you have to give up other potentially valuable buffs.
I have no problem fighting people who use an immovable pot against me. In fact, I almost kind of prefer it as a templar, my CCs are lousy to begin with and I'd prefer them not to get health from their pot or their off resource.
Other buffs are valuable, but they aren't as valuable as Immovable.2 -
montjie✭✭✭Sure lets give the Xv1-ers even more power.- easy farmable saltbucket -
- retired QQ king of Daggerfall Covenant PC-EU Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/weird dragon name/Ravenwatch zone chat -7 -
Integral1900✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Potions... say it slowly.... p.o.t.i.o.n.s
A pot is something to put a plant in , or maybe cutlery, what you are using is a POTION!!!!!1 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, I'm pretty confident to say that you won't beat me running reduce pot potions cd enchants.
@SanTii.92 potion boost + immovable is a form of regen. Not breaking free every 7 seconds saves a TON of stamina. You still think there is a trade-off there? I don't.Edited by SanTii.92 on September 6, 2017 5:33PMWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
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With buffs 3x damage glyphs is over 600 damage with 100% uptime. That's more than any set in the game offers. But nah, its OP to have to give that up so that you can't be CC'ed. Either you can't be CC'ed or you can have the damage to kill someone, seems balanced.
@GrumpyDuckling immovable is not more valuable than major sorcery/brutality and its not even remotely close.Edited by Lexxypwns on September 6, 2017 5:31PM9 -
Koolio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If they use 3 potion glyphs I bet their vigor tooltip is 11k. You won't CC them but they can't heal/shield nearly as effective.1 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It lasts for 1/3 of the time. There's still 30 seconds that you can CC then.
Not being CC immune is imbalanced outnumbered. There's always that guy spamming javelin or flame clench on you.
Removing them would favour zergers. Plenty of stuff already does. No more please.Edited by Brrrofski on September 6, 2017 5:54PM7 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait there's 100 percent uptime immovables ? Or am I missing something because that can be broken in areas like BGs where you can sacrifice damage0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Other buffs are valuable, but they aren't as valuable as Immovable.
Depending on the build, there absolutely are more valuable buffs. The crit ones will give you more damage. On any class that heavily relies on using both resources pools (sorcs, dks, stamblade, etc), id prefer to run tri pots provided that I was getting mobility from somewhere.
I was just dueling one of the strongest stamplars on my server to practice my new bleed blade. Even though he was running immov pots, I consistently found that I preferred using tri pots instead of running immov as well. Why? Because the extra cloaks and shades were literally more valuable to me in that fight than the cc immunity.
Yeah, immov pots are strong. No, they are not OP and don't need to be nerfed. Your opinions are not facts, especially when something like 'value' of a buff cannot be universally quantified.3 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
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With buffs 3x damage glyphs is over 600 damage with 100% uptime. That's more than any set in the game offers. But nah, its OP to have to give that up so that you can't be CC'ed. Either you can't be CC'ed or you can have the damage to kill someone, seems balanced.
@GrumpyDuckling immovable is not more valuable than major sorcery/brutality and its not even remotely close.
Immovable is WAY more valuable on potions for the simple fact that it's harder to get. Major Sorcery/Brutality is widely available in the game. Most builds can get it without potions.0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd straight up choose a disease resist enchant over potion duration any day of the week now for the major defile from disease status effect immunityhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nobody wants to use these pots in PvP, they're simply forced to because of how asinine CCs are in cyrodil. Rework CCs first then we can talk about pots guy7 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Other buffs are valuable, but they aren't as valuable as Immovable.
Depending on the build, there absolutely are more valuable buffs. The crit ones will give you more damage. On any class that heavily relies on using both resources pools (sorcs, dks, stamblade, etc), id prefer to run tri pots provided that I was getting mobility from somewhere.
I was just dueling one of the strongest stamplars on my server to practice my new bleed blade. Even though he was running immov pots, I consistently found that I preferred using tri pots instead of running immov as well. Why? Because the extra cloaks and shades were literally more valuable to me in that fight than the cc immunity.
Yeah, immov pots are strong. No, they are not OP and don't need to be nerfed. Your opinions are not facts, especially when something like 'value' of a buff cannot be universally quantified.
Your opinion represents an isolated personal experience that is not a fact. Looks like we're at a stalemate.0
