Nerf Warden's Shimmering Shield

Trinotops · September 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

Maybe it's shimmering shield that makes tree ult as strong as it does. Not sure how you address it though. Take away major heroism for minor and it becomes useless on a Pve tank because of heroic slash.

Yes, Shimmering and Trees do go hand in hand, but I feel that both skills would need to be nerfed. If you nerf Trees, Warden will still have insane ult gen. If you nerf Shimmering, Warden will still have a very cheap and potent ultimate. And I think you're right about Major Heroism to Minor Heroism being too strong of a nerf. Until someone presents a better solution, the idea of shimmering requiring all 3 shields to be consumed to get Major Heroism seems to be the best. But I still think 6 seconds (12 ultimate) of Major Heroism from a single morph effect is too much and should be be brought down to 3 seconds (6 ultimate).

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2017

SirCritical wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

This is the kind of attitude that *** these balance threads up. "I use it, so I defend it no matter how unbalanced/ broken/ whatever it is". Egoistical to say the least. Maybe I should respec into mag sorc and demand shield buffs and better burst, just bc I play it.

E: who cares about pve when npc can be adjusted at any time.

Hm, I don't use the Shield (while the Forest, yes). What's your point?

This:

SirCritical wrote: »

And if OP plays a Warden and gets advantages from these skills, shouldn't want to nerf them. It's just unnatural. If you feel yourself too strong when using these skills, then don't use them!

It's really an irreal state of mind when someone complains against himself.

That attitude in general. Why shouldn't someone complain about things that one finds overperforming even if it's from the own class?

I play all classes. So I should never say something is too strong?

But that goes the the other way as well. Things I don't use can very well be unbalanced too.

For the sake of balance it's necessary to also take a critical look at the "own" class.

sly007 · September 2017

The warden healing ultimate is far from being over powered. Sure it is cheap, but what make it good. The radius for the healing is small. Players can be forced out of the heal. The healing done can be out damaged by dot builds easily. I have defeatd enough wardens, magicka and stamina, enough times while in their ultimate with ease on my stamina dk in duels, cyrodiil, and battle ground.

The initial heal fruition the ulti can crit for 10k and the subsequent heals can crit for 4k (that's if major mending is activated). Coupled with hots like vigor, rally, mutagen, etc. with a nice rock or tree, healing can seem O.P. With major defile being so easy to get (desease glyph, reverberating bash, corrupting pollens, incapacitating strike, standard) out damaging the heal is not hard. Warden healers, unlike templar healers, have to aim their heals and make sure the group stay within those heals for it to be worth the magicka cost or ultimate cost.

Shimmering shields on the other hand, is too strong not for the absorb but for the major heroism uptime. Change the condition to damage taken with the shield up from shield consumption. Then reducing major heroism duration from 12 seconds to 8 seconds. That would make the heroism consistent across the board but increase the cost of keeping it up at all times.

Wardens can achieve the fastest ultimate regeneration but do not benefit much from it. I think that is fair. Their is nothing threatening about the warden ultimates. The bear is not threat, tge healing ultimate is no threat to you, and the ice ultimate is no threat due to its only doing 4 to 6k damage tool tip which can to mitigated with block and scales of direct damage cp. Most players spec their defensive cp into direct damage.

Set the end of the day, the tree ultimate is fine for its cost and only heals. Hard no secondary effect and the healing is within a small radius which has to be aimed or make sure allies stand their ground within the ultimate. Shimmering shield could use a small nerf. I have went up against many wardens 1v1 and small group situations with nothing has come across as over powered.

SirCritical · September 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

For the sake of balance it's necessary to also take a critical look at the "own" class.

I see now, and it's valid.

Maybe I was under the influence of the continuous nerfs, because I, a very average player am proud of myself - and ourselves, if we're talking about groups - if we reach some achievements, then it turns out 'we were too strong, that wasn't intended', then the 'nerf-hammer' comes, and eliminates our chances to do it again.

So, thanks for pointing this.

Trinotops · September 2017

sly007 wrote: »

The warden healing ultimate is far from being over powered. Sure it is cheap, but what make it good. The radius for the healing is small. Players can be forced out of the heal. The healing done can be out damaged by dot builds easily. I have defeatd enough wardens, magicka and stamina, enough times while in their ultimate with ease on my stamina dk in duels, cyrodiil, and battle ground.

The initial heal fruition the ulti can crit for 10k and the subsequent heals can crit for 4k (that's if major mending is activated). Coupled with hots like vigor, rally, mutagen, etc. with a nice rock or tree, healing can seem O.P. With major defile being so easy to get (desease glyph, reverberating bash, corrupting pollens, incapacitating strike, standard) out damaging the heal is not hard. Warden healers, unlike templar healers, have to aim their heals and make sure the group stay within those heals for it to be worth the magicka cost or ultimate cost.

Shimmering shields on the other hand, is too strong not for the absorb but for the major heroism uptime. Change the condition to damage taken with the shield up from shield consumption. Then reducing major heroism duration from 12 seconds to 8 seconds. That would make the heroism consistent across the board but increase the cost of keeping it up at all times.

Wardens can achieve the fastest ultimate regeneration but do not benefit much from it. I think that is fair. Their is nothing threatening about the warden ultimates. The bear is not threat, tge healing ultimate is no threat to you, and the ice ultimate is no threat due to its only doing 4 to 6k damage tool tip which can to mitigated with block and scales of direct damage cp. Most players spec their defensive cp into direct damage.

Set the end of the day, the tree ultimate is fine for its cost and only heals. Hard no secondary effect and the healing is within a small radius which has to be aimed or make sure allies stand their ground within the ultimate. Shimmering shield could use a small nerf. I have went up against many wardens 1v1 and small group situations with nothing has come across as over powered.

I disagree. In no CP I personally have been able to take pressure from multiple people with the help of trees and I have even tanked destro ults from multiple different people (not at the same time of course, although I am curious as to how many destro ults I could survive with trees) in just medium armor. I don't find its size to be an issue either. It heals so much that it allows my teammates and I to stand our ground in its small area and maybe turn the tide of the fight. And in a mobile fight a Warden can afford to place it beneath their group and keep going because its low cost and Warden's high ult gen makes trees almost disposable. And sure maybe it doesn't have a secondary effect in the skill itself, but Warden's passives make it give major mending and resources to the caster and minor toughness to everyone it touches. I also don't understand your argument about ult gen not being useful to a Warden. Sure Bear isn't that good (except for maybe in duels) and Sleet Storm is decent at best, but Wardens are not restricted to their class ultimates. They can get very strong ultimates like Dawnbreaker, Resto Ult, or whatever just as fast. Which is why I think we can both agree that Warden needs a nerf to ult gen via a nerf to Shimmering.

Juhasow · September 2017

deadvolt wrote: »

So nerf us because you can't deal with two skills lool while there at nerf sorc Shields also go ahead and need nb cloak sure it's not fair I can't see them my god sum people just want everything nerfed

Actually both sorc shields and cloak was nerfed already. Shields use to last 20 seconds now last 6 and cloak used to purge up to 5 DoT's now just supresses them.

White wabbit · September 2017

Trinotops wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Omg another nerf post L2P why not ask Zos to just give us all pillow cushions to hit everyone with

Omg! Another person contributing nothing constructive or intellectual to a thread! I'd understand if this was another one of the countless nerf sorc or nerf nightblade threads and you were just trying to be one of the cool kids and show your disapproval for a pointless post, but I personally haven't seen anyone else bring up these skills which I find to be a bit too strong.

You said it right THAT you find strong I haven't anyone one else whine about them so as I s said L2P

pieratsos · September 2017

Liofa wrote: »

Templar healing ulti does :

- More healing
- Gives 16k armor
- Makes you immune to CC
- Has more range
- Snares by 30%
- Gives Major Protection
- Minor Mending

I don't see anyone wanting nerfs to this . Simply superior . It makes you immortal . Only downside is not being able to do anything else during the cast .

Trees can be up with high uptime because that 20 Ultimate procs instantly without meeting requirements . It doesn't need a nerf . It needs a fix . Until it is fixed , cost is basically 55 .

I must say , I do mind Shimmering Shield . I talked about it in Morrowind PTS , how absurd it is to gain a rare buff so easily . I said all 3 shield should be taken down in one cast in order to gain the buff . That would stop the brainless spamming and would lead to smarter gameplay . No changes . Well , whatever .

Yeah and it also costs more and locks you to a cast time of 4 seconds while being immobilized and cant do anything else.
So please tell me more about how being immobilized and locked to cast times is superior in PVP.

pieratsos · September 2017

You know people have no idea about what they are talking about when they say that the ult doesnt provide burst healing and can be out dmged by dots.

Shushu_H · September 2017

Trinotops wrote: »

Secluded Grove: An insane AoE heal that can have a 100% uptime without too much investment into ult gen. I think its cost should be increased to 100 so that it's more in-line with other defensive ultimates like shield wall and resto ult.

Shimmering Shield: Although the base skill is a kinda weak, this morph makes it a little too strong. I feel that such a strong buff as major heroism should't be so easily attainable through a single skill. Make it so that the caster only gets major heroism if all 3 projectiles are absorbed the major heroism only last 3 seconds instead of 6 because a morph effect giving 12 ultimate (or potentially more than 12 as it currently is) from a single cast is too much.

EDIT: I originally wanted a nerf to Secluded Grove but after doing some testing with both morphs of the skill "Enchanted Forest" and "Healing Thicket" I've found that Healing Thicket, the morph of Secluded Grove that I personally use and based my statement off of, appears to be healing for more than intended. If this is truly the case then I believe that Secluded Grove should not be nerfed and instead Healing Thicket gets fixed so that it heals for the proper ammount. You can find the results of my testing here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369903/healing-thicket-double-ticking/p1?new=1

The tree ult as well as shimmering shield are staple points of the warden magicka and stamina. Both run it everyone runs it. It's the class identity. Stop trying to ruin it.

DeHei · September 2017

For solo playing its all fine in my eyes. Then only use attacks, which allways hit and you dont have stress with warden.

I dream for a smallscalegroup: 2 Magicka Warden and 2 Magicka Templar with my playstyle. A lot of healing and aoe damage with dots

ManDraKE · September 2017

From the creators of "Malubeth is balanced", "heavy armor dosn't need a nerf" and "Permablock is ok", we get the new "tree ult with major heroism is fine".

Only in ESO Forums.

Defilted · September 2017

Shimmering is the best PVP skill a Warden has. Please do not nerf it.

Thogard · September 2017

Trinitops is one of the top Stam wardens in the game. If he says to nerf Stam wardens, we should listen.

agingerinohio · September 2017

Nerf the nerf requests.

deadvolt · September 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

So nerf us because you can't deal with two skills lool while there at nerf sorc Shields also go ahead and need nb cloak sure it's not fair I can't see them my god sum people just want everything nerfed

Actually both sorc shields and cloak was nerfed already. Shields use to last 20 seconds now last 6 and cloak used to purge up to 5 DoT's now just supresses them.

Yes but form a pvp stand point you almost always need to shield more than ever 6 second and it hasn't affected them in pve and yes the purge form cloak was a bit sad but you want balance right how it fair that cloak back then purge like the templar skill as well as make you INVISIBLE like only class with a skill that make you disappear strong enough I think

Vaoh · September 2017

So just like that, you have gotten over your feeling to nerf one of these two essential Warden skills.

This is why no one cares for your "balance". One day you feel like nerfing two Warden skills. Maybe tomorrow one skill. Maybe the next day it's Sorcs, then Templars, then perhaps Destro Staff and Soul Trap because reasons. Totally baseless balancing. You can't balance stuff by looking at a single skill or else every class is insanely broken. Take the entire class into account for all areas of gameplay - all of a sudden, across the whole game, Warden isn't looking too good at all compared to its competition.

You just changed your thread title and nerf request like it was nothimg, which is just flat out misleading since this thread has already had an entire page worth of discussion to it. Just leave it OP.

Trinotops · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

So just like that, you have gotten over your feeling to nerf one of these two essential Warden skills.

This is why no one cares for your "balance". One day you feel like nerfing two Warden skills. Maybe tomorrow one skill. Maybe the next day it's Sorcs, then Templars, then perhaps Destro Staff and Soul Trap because reasons. Totally baseless balancing. You can't balance stuff by looking at a single skill or else every class is insanely broken. Take the entire class into account for all areas of gameplay - all of a sudden, across the whole game, Warden isn't looking too good at all compared to its competition.

You just changed your thread title and nerf request like it was nothimg, which is just flat out misleading since this thread has already had an entire page worth of discussion to it. Just leave it OP.

I don't understand what you're grasping at here buddy. Are you upset that I went out of my way and found information that, if true, changes my stance on a skill? I for one am perfectly fine with swallowing my pride with admitting that I was uninformed. And then you go on to assume that I'm just another baby crying nerf to papa Zeni with no basis to my pleas? I don't think my argument about Shimmering is baseless or that it deserves a whole new thread. I wholeheartedly believe that a morph effect of an incredibly cheap skill giving 6+ seconds of Major Heroism is absolutely insane. Warden as a whole maybe under performing, but its ult gen is certainly not.

Vaoh · September 2017

Trinotops wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

So just like that, you have gotten over your feeling to nerf one of these two essential Warden skills.

This is why no one cares for your "balance". One day you feel like nerfing two Warden skills. Maybe tomorrow one skill. Maybe the next day it's Sorcs, then Templars, then perhaps Destro Staff and Soul Trap because reasons. Totally baseless balancing. You can't balance stuff by looking at a single skill or else every class is insanely broken. Take the entire class into account for all areas of gameplay - all of a sudden, across the whole game, Warden isn't looking too good at all compared to its competition.

You just changed your thread title and nerf request like it was nothimg, which is just flat out misleading since this thread has already had an entire page worth of discussion to it. Just leave it OP.

I don't understand what you're grasping at here buddy. Are you upset that I went out of my way and found information that, if true, changes my stance on a skill? I for one am perfectly fine with swallowing my pride with admitting that I was uninformed. And then you go on to assume that I'm just another baby crying nerf to papa Zeni with no basis to my pleas? I don't think my argument about Shimmering is baseless or that it deserves a whole new thread. I wholeheartedly believe that a morph effect of an incredibly cheap skill giving 6+ seconds of Major Heroism is absolutely insane. Warden as a whole maybe under performing, but its ult gen is certainly not.

Well yes. I think you summed yourself up quite perfectly there. A "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni"

It fits quite well to a thread like this, especially when the OP (you) decides to change the thread title after many dissenting opinions to your nerf proposals show up. Changing the title of your thread creates confusion and is obviously something you don't do once discussion has already happened. If you realized how wrong you were that quickly then you must have created this thread on a whim, which take us back to being a "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni".

As for balance - according to yu Warden as a whole is underperforming, yet their Ult Gen is strong? This means that even with powerful Ult Gen (a trait of the Warden class that makes them unique) they still underperform....therefore nerf the underperforming class so they are as close to useless as possible?

Major Heroism is also tied to a situational skill that cannot be utilized effectively in all scenarios and is *bugged* because some skills can break a shield every tick, nullifying the effectiveness of the actual defensive component of Crystallized Shield.

Don't spin your thread into something different from the exact original intent after it has already run its course.

Trinotops · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Well yes. I think you summed yourself up quite perfectly there. A "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni"
It fits quite well to a thread like this, especially when the OP (you) decides to change the thread title after many dissenting opinions to your nerf proposals show up. Changing the title of your thread creates confusion and is obviously something you don't do once discussion has already happened. If you realized how wrong you were that quickly then you must have created this thread on a whim, which take us back to being a "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni".

As for balance - according to yu Warden as a whole is underperforming, yet their Ult Gen is strong? This means that even with powerful Ult Gen (a trait of the Warden class that makes them unique) they still underperform....therefore nerf the underperforming class so they are as close to useless as possible?

Major Heroism is also tied to a situational skill that cannot be utilized effectively in all scenarios and is *bugged* because some skills can break a shield every tick, nullifying the effectiveness of the actual defensive component of Crystallized Shield.

Don't spin your thread into something different from the exact original intent after it has already run its course.

You seem to be misinformed. I changed my opinion due to information I myself presented. All of the counter-arguments leading up to my change of stance had failed to change my opinion. But after finding new information and reevaluating the skill, I came to my own conclusion that this skill would be fine if it had its various bugs hammered out of it. You also seem to be very fixated on the idea that I should create a new thread to discuss Shimmering which I personally do not understand. Say you're writing a paper in ink and make a mistake do you simply get a whole new paper on which to write? A sensible person would simply mark it out and keep going not wanting to waste the materials or ideas already spent. It's the same here. Why go through the trouble of pointlessly creating a new thread when there is already this one with all of my, and other's, ideas about the topic? Also, creating a new thread about something I've made a thread about previously might come off as spammy.
I also don't understand why seemingly everyone on these forums is so opposed to nerfs. Balance can't be so simply one-sided as to where we should buff everything. Think of an old-fashioned scale. You have to add and subtract material from both sides in order to achieve equilibrium.
Now if we're done discussing my views on balance, we can talk about Warden. I disagree that Crystallized Shield is a situational skill. Maybe in PvE a tank would have to be smart about when to cast it, but PvP is a different story. In PvP, in open world or even battlegrounds, all it takes is one stray projectile like a bow light attack or a destro light attack (neither of which are uncommon in the slightest) to get an easy 12 ultimate and 600 magicka. I'd also appreciate it if you could elaborate on which skills are supposedly bugging out the skill, because I personally have encountered no such thing. And when I said that Wardens were under-performing I guess I should have specified that they are under-performing in PvE as DPS and Healers, neither of which benefit from this skill much if at all.

pieratsos · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

As for balance - according to yu Warden as a whole is underperforming, yet their Ult Gen is strong? This means that even with powerful Ult Gen (a trait of the Warden class that makes them unique) they still underperform....therefore nerf the underperforming class so they are as close to useless as possible?

Wardens are underperforming in PVE. Not in PVP. And just because they are undeperforming in PVE it doesnt mean they should have stupid mechanics in PVP. Buff them in PVE but those stupid mechanics in PVP have to be addressed.

Shimmering can give you prety much 100% uptime on major heroism when u are under pressure, it costs almost nothing, it mitigates a f*ckton of dmg and you pop healing ults every 10-15 seconds getting a f*ckton of healing. You can literally almost have 100% uptime on the healing ult. Its beyond stupid.

Enough with this stupid tank meta. There was a time when defensive ults cost a lot (magma, nova, atro, standard etc) and people had to actually think when to use them. Now everyone and their mother are popping snb ults, resto ults and warden ults every few seconds and refuse to die.

Vaoh · September 2017

Trinotops wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Well yes. I think you summed yourself up quite perfectly there. A "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni"
It fits quite well to a thread like this, especially when the OP (you) decides to change the thread title after many dissenting opinions to your nerf proposals show up. Changing the title of your thread creates confusion and is obviously something you don't do once discussion has already happened. If you realized how wrong you were that quickly then you must have created this thread on a whim, which take us back to being a "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni".

As for balance - according to yu Warden as a whole is underperforming, yet their Ult Gen is strong? This means that even with powerful Ult Gen (a trait of the Warden class that makes them unique) they still underperform....therefore nerf the underperforming class so they are as close to useless as possible?

Major Heroism is also tied to a situational skill that cannot be utilized effectively in all scenarios and is *bugged* because some skills can break a shield every tick, nullifying the effectiveness of the actual defensive component of Crystallized Shield.

Don't spin your thread into something different from the exact original intent after it has already run its course.

You seem to be misinformed. I changed my opinion due to information I myself presented. All of the counter-arguments leading up to my change of stance had failed to change my opinion. But after finding new information and reevaluating the skill, I came to my own conclusion that this skill would be fine if it had its various bugs hammered out of it. You also seem to be very fixated on the idea that I should create a new thread to discuss Shimmering which I personally do not understand. Say you're writing a paper in ink and make a mistake do you simply get a whole new paper on which to write? A sensible person would simply mark it out and keep going not wanting to waste the materials or ideas already spent. It's the same here. Why go through the trouble of pointlessly creating a new thread when there is already this one with all of my, and other's, ideas about the topic? Also, creating a new thread about something I've made a thread about previously might come off as spammy.
I also don't understand why seemingly everyone on these forums is so opposed to nerfs. Balance can't be so simply one-sided as to where we should buff everything. Think of an old-fashioned scale. You have to add and subtract material from both sides in order to achieve equilibrium.
Now if we're done discussing my views on balance, we can talk about Warden. I disagree that Crystallized Shield is a situational skill. Maybe in PvE a tank would have to be smart about when to cast it, but PvP is a different story. In PvP, in open world or even battlegrounds, all it takes is one stray projectile like a bow light attack or a destro light attack (neither of which are uncommon in the slightest) to get an easy 12 ultimate and 600 magicka. I'd also appreciate it if you could elaborate on which skills are supposedly bugging out the skill, because I personally have encountered no such thing. And when I said that Wardens were under-performing I guess I should have specified that they are under-performing in PvE as DPS and Healers, neither of which benefit from this skill much if at all.

Okay, you genuinely sound like you want to talk balance which is good so I'll just stop everything else about your decision to alter the topic of your thread midway through discussion. Seeing as you have two stars on this Forum (no, this has nothing to do with gloating about Forum stars) I'll assume you're inexperienced here with how stuff like this works and try to help. Your entire thread was about nerfing Secluded Grove and Shimmering Shield, mainly Secluded Grove if either skill were to take a spotlight. The discussion went on and on and a lot of people disagreed and pushed this off as a typical crying nerf thread (sorry, but it is

). Then you changed your thread title and completely had a change of heart about the apparently super OP Secluded Grove. You just don't do that, and if your mind is changed that easily then you obviously didn't think through your nerf proposals which means..... this is just another nerf thread with very little to no understanding behind all of the underlying consequences. Simple as that.

Now as for Shimmering Shield and the Warden class - when a Shimmering shield breaks you do not get 12 Ultimate and 600 Magicka. Rather you 3 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds for 6 seconds and a bit under 600 Magicka. If one damage shield from Shimmering Shield granted 12 Ultimate I'd agree with you that Warden needs a nerf lol. However, it simply refreshes the buff. This gives Warden high Ult gen, but their base survivability (without spamming tree ults) is situational based on who they fight and is often weaker than there classes.

Shimmering Shield is situational. If you fight a Stamina build there are almost no projectiles. A smart player will cast Poison Injection when your Shimmering Shield disappears, and even if they don't the DoT will linger on you regardless, meaning a against a Stamina build this crucial skill for Warden defense is barely useful at all and serves almost solely for Ult Gen. If fighting a smart Magicka player, they will light attack every cast and break your projectile shields with very weak attacks to set you up to be hit by their more powerful attacks while your single Annulment shield is weak and Shimmering projectile shields are down.. Certain proc sets also deplete a shield every tick, such as Sheer Venom, Viper's Sting, and many other DoT procs but idk if any have been fixed yet. Summon Shade breaks a shield on every bow light attack and sticks to you at very far ranges. Channeled attacks burn though shields very quickly too. I've been halfway across a map after teleporting away from a battle in BGs, and when trying to engage an enemy with Shimmering Shield up, they'd deplete almost immediately due to procs/skills dealing damage to me from the battle I escaped from that counted as "projectiles". Shimmering Shield is a counterable skill if you know how it works, meaning the Ult Gen is the main purpose to use it and almost always goes toward your Tree Ult since you have low defense based on your Active Skills compared to other classes. This is why people do not pick the other morph, which imo should get buffed (maybe Minor Heroism would help).

There are also weaknesses about Shimmering Shield that aren't apparent at first. Each shield is specifically a damage-only shield, meaning it absorbs only the damage from an incoming projectile. All secondary effects cut through your shields, which means CCs, debuts, DoTs... everything. These alone melt your single Annulment damage shield quite a lot. Also some skills are powerful enough to leak their projectile damage through your damage shields by quite a bit (Overload, Crystal Frags, Grim Focus, Dark Flare, Jesus Beam, Soul Assault, etc).

So when we look at Crystallized Shield, it is susceptible to certain tactics used by knowledgeable players in PvP. In PvE, this skill is tough to use in many fights and is often not usable. There is nothing smart about using it in PvE. Either it can be used, or it can't be used - simple stuff. Any suggestion to make Shimmering Shield require all three shields to break to trigger Ult gen would all but ruin it in PvE since the situational where all three would break in 6 seconds are minimal, with practically no difference noted in PvP since you take so much damage that these things evaporate almost immediately anyway.

This is a class that is in desperate need of an overhaul (buffs!) to Winter's Embrace as a skill line, not nerfs because you thought they could do something other classes couldn't, such as generate Ult quicker.

paulsimonps · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Trinotops wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Well yes. I think you summed yourself up quite perfectly there. A "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni"
It fits quite well to a thread like this, especially when the OP (you) decides to change the thread title after many dissenting opinions to your nerf proposals show up. Changing the title of your thread creates confusion and is obviously something you don't do once discussion has already happened. If you realized how wrong you were that quickly then you must have created this thread on a whim, which take us back to being a "baby crying nerf to papa Zeni".

As for balance - according to yu Warden as a whole is underperforming, yet their Ult Gen is strong? This means that even with powerful Ult Gen (a trait of the Warden class that makes them unique) they still underperform....therefore nerf the underperforming class so they are as close to useless as possible?

Major Heroism is also tied to a situational skill that cannot be utilized effectively in all scenarios and is *bugged* because some skills can break a shield every tick, nullifying the effectiveness of the actual defensive component of Crystallized Shield.

Don't spin your thread into something different from the exact original intent after it has already run its course.

You seem to be misinformed. I changed my opinion due to information I myself presented. All of the counter-arguments leading up to my change of stance had failed to change my opinion. But after finding new information and reevaluating the skill, I came to my own conclusion that this skill would be fine if it had its various bugs hammered out of it. You also seem to be very fixated on the idea that I should create a new thread to discuss Shimmering which I personally do not understand. Say you're writing a paper in ink and make a mistake do you simply get a whole new paper on which to write? A sensible person would simply mark it out and keep going not wanting to waste the materials or ideas already spent. It's the same here. Why go through the trouble of pointlessly creating a new thread when there is already this one with all of my, and other's, ideas about the topic? Also, creating a new thread about something I've made a thread about previously might come off as spammy.
I also don't understand why seemingly everyone on these forums is so opposed to nerfs. Balance can't be so simply one-sided as to where we should buff everything. Think of an old-fashioned scale. You have to add and subtract material from both sides in order to achieve equilibrium.
Now if we're done discussing my views on balance, we can talk about Warden. I disagree that Crystallized Shield is a situational skill. Maybe in PvE a tank would have to be smart about when to cast it, but PvP is a different story. In PvP, in open world or even battlegrounds, all it takes is one stray projectile like a bow light attack or a destro light attack (neither of which are uncommon in the slightest) to get an easy 12 ultimate and 600 magicka. I'd also appreciate it if you could elaborate on which skills are supposedly bugging out the skill, because I personally have encountered no such thing. And when I said that Wardens were under-performing I guess I should have specified that they are under-performing in PvE as DPS and Healers, neither of which benefit from this skill much if at all.

Okay, you genuinely sound like you want to talk balance which is good so I'll just stop everything else about your decision to alter the topic of your thread midway through discussion. Seeing as you have two stars on this Forum (no, this has nothing to do with gloating about Forum stars) I'll assume you're inexperienced here with how stuff like this works and try to help. Your entire thread was about nerfing Secluded Grove and Shimmering Shield, mainly Secluded Grove if either skill were to take a spotlight. The discussion went on and on and a lot of people disagreed and pushed this off as a typical crying nerf thread (sorry, but it is ). Then you changed your thread title and completely had a change of heart about the apparently super OP Secluded Grove. You just don't do that, and if your mind is changed that easily then you obviously didn't think through your nerf proposals which means..... this is just another nerf thread with very little to no understanding behind all of the underlying consequences. Simple as that.

Now as for Shimmering Shield and the Warden class - when a Shimmering shield breaks you do not get 12 Ultimate and 600 Magicka. Rather you 3 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds for 6 seconds and a bit under 600 Magicka. If one damage shield from Shimmering Shield granted 12 Ultimate I'd agree with you that Warden needs a nerf lol. However, it simply refreshes the buff. This gives Warden high Ult gen, but their base survivability (without spamming tree ults) is situational based on who they fight and is often weaker than there classes.

Shimmering Shield is situational. If you fight a Stamina build there are almost no projectiles. A smart player will cast Poison Injection when your Shimmering Shield disappears, and even if they don't the DoT will linger on you regardless, meaning a against a Stamina build this crucial skill for Warden defense is barely useful at all and serves almost solely for Ult Gen. If fighting a smart Magicka player, they will light attack every cast and break your projectile shields with very weak attacks to set you up to be hit by their more powerful attacks while your single Annulment shield is weak and Shimmering projectile shields are down.. Certain proc sets also deplete a shield every tick, such as Sheer Venom, Viper's Sting, and many other DoT procs but idk if any have been fixed yet. Summon Shade breaks a shield on every bow light attack and sticks to you at very far ranges. Channeled attacks burn though shields very quickly too. I've been halfway across a map after teleporting away from a battle in BGs, and when trying to engage an enemy with Shimmering Shield up, they'd deplete almost immediately due to procs/skills dealing damage to me from the battle I escaped from that counted as "projectiles". Shimmering Shield is a counterable skill if you know how it works, meaning the Ult Gen is the main purpose to use it and almost always goes toward your Tree Ult since you have low defense based on your Active Skills compared to other classes. This is why people do not pick the other morph, which imo should get buffed (maybe Minor Heroism would help).

There are also weaknesses about Shimmering Shield that aren't apparent at first. Each shield is specifically a damage-only shield, meaning it absorbs only the damage from an incoming projectile. All secondary effects cut through your shields, which means CCs, debuts, DoTs... everything. These alone melt your single Annulment damage shield quite a lot. Also some skills are powerful enough to leak their projectile damage through your damage shields by quite a bit (Overload, Crystal Frags, Grim Focus, Dark Flare, Jesus Beam, Soul Assault, etc).

So when we look at Crystallized Shield, it is susceptible to certain tactics used by knowledgeable players in PvP. In PvE, this skill is tough to use in many fights and is often not usable. There is nothing smart about using it in PvE. Either it can be used, or it can't be used - simple stuff. Any suggestion to make Shimmering Shield require all three shields to break to trigger Ult gen would all but ruin it in PvE since the situational where all three would break in 6 seconds are minimal, with practically no difference noted in PvP since you take so much damage that these things evaporate almost immediately anyway.

This is a class that is in desperate need of an overhaul (buffs!) to Winter's Embrace as a skill line, not nerfs because you thought they could do something other classes couldn't, such as generate Ult quicker.

Well written. *Thumbs up* Wardens do need a bit of an overhaul, don't break them but at the same time don't make them OP, which goes for both PvP and PvE. And indeed if you want to get a point across well and to discuss a potential issue you might think exist there are good ways and bad ways to do this, one should strive for the better of the options.

Betsararie · September 2017

I agree healing thicket is a problem and needs a nerf. The cost is far too low so you will just get these Wardens who all they know how to do is spam this skill and stand in it. Their utility does not extend past that.

In addition to that, it is the most annoying skill in the game, I think that is something we can all agree on. I'd love to see this skill nerfed to return some balance to PvP.

Trinotops · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Your entire thread was about nerfing Secluded Grove and Shimmering Shield, mainly Secluded Grove if either skill were to take a spotlight. The discussion went on and on and a lot of people disagreed and pushed this off as a typical crying nerf thread (sorry, but it is ). Then you changed your thread title and completely had a change of heart about the apparently super OP Secluded Grove. You just don't do that, and if your mind is changed that easily then you obviously didn't think through your nerf proposals which means..... this is just another nerf thread with very little to no understanding behind all of the underlying consequences. Simple as that.

As much as I want to disagree, I feel like I've already explained myself enough about this and bringing it up more would only create unnecessary dialogue between us.

Vaoh wrote: »

Now as for Shimmering Shield and the Warden class - when a Shimmering shield breaks you do not get 12 Ultimate and 600 Magicka. Rather you 3 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds for 6 seconds and a bit under 600 Magicka. If one damage shield from Shimmering Shield granted 12 Ultimate I'd agree with you that Warden needs a nerf lol. However, it simply refreshes the buff. This gives Warden high Ult gen, but their base survivability (without spamming tree ults) is situational based on who they fight and is often weaker than there classes.

Yea, my mistake for combining singular and collective effects of the skill, I should have phrased it better. And of course Warden's survivability is situational, although I'm sure you could say the same for all classes. But I will agree that, without trees or any ultimate for that matter, Warden does lack in survivability. But realistically, a Warden will potentially be able to pump out way more ults like resto ult, shield wall, and trees making them just as, if not more, hard to kill than other classes (not taking build into consideration, of course).

Vaoh wrote: »

Shimmering Shield is situational. If you fight a Stamina build there are almost no projectiles. A smart player will cast Poison Injection when your Shimmering Shield disappears, and even if they don't the DoT will linger on you regardless, meaning a against a Stamina build this crucial skill for Warden defense is barely useful at all and serves almost solely for Ult Gen. If fighting a smart Magicka player, they will light attack every cast and break your projectile shields with very weak attacks to set you up to be hit by their more powerful attacks while your single Annulment shield is weak and Shimmering projectile shields are down.. Certain proc sets also deplete a shield every tick, such as Sheer Venom, Viper's Sting, and many other DoT procs but idk if any have been fixed yet. Summon Shade breaks a shield on every bow light attack and sticks to you at very far ranges. Channeled attacks burn though shields very quickly too. I've been halfway across a map after teleporting away from a battle in BGs, and when trying to engage an enemy with Shimmering Shield up, they'd deplete almost immediately due to procs/skills dealing damage to me from the battle I escaped from that counted as "projectiles". Shimmering Shield is a counterable skill if you know how it works, meaning the Ult Gen is the main purpose to use it and almost always goes toward your Tree Ult since you have low defense based on your Active Skills compared to other classes. This is why people do not pick the other morph, which imo should get buffed (maybe Minor Heroism would help).

There are also weaknesses about Shimmering Shield that aren't apparent at first. Each shield is specifically a damage-only shield, meaning it absorbs only the damage from an incoming projectile. All secondary effects cut through your shields, which means CCs, debuts, DoTs... everything. These alone melt your single Annulment damage shield quite a lot. Also some skills are powerful enough to leak their projectile damage through your damage shields by quite a bit (Overload, Crystal Frags, Grim Focus, Dark Flare, Jesus Beam, Soul Assault, etc).

So when we look at Crystallized Shield, it is susceptible to certain tactics used by knowledgeable players in PvP. In PvE, this skill is tough to use in many fights and is often not usable. There is nothing smart about using it in PvE. Either it can be used, or it can't be used - simple stuff. Any suggestion to make Shimmering Shield require all three shields to break to trigger Ult gen would all but ruin it in PvE since the situational where all three would break in 6 seconds are minimal, with practically no difference noted in PvP since you take so much damage that these things evaporate almost immediately anyway.

If Crystallized Shield is bugged and is absorbing non-projectile attacks then it of course should be fixed. But to me, it seems you're providing a lot of "what if" scenarios. "What if I'm a magicka Warden" "What if there is only one person" "What if that person doesn't have any projectiles". I will say that Crystallized Shield is situational in very large-scale fights and in duels (although in duels players can simply change their skills accordingly based on their opponent). But realistically in a small scale or Xv1 fight, players are going to throw everything they have at you not caring that you have an absorb. But that aside, your issue seems to be that the base skill itself is pretty weak. And I agree that it's kinda bad as a defensive ability and that it could use a buff. But, as I've said many times before, my issue is not with the base skill it's with the morph which I think is giving way too much ultimate for its cheap cost (not even considering the magicka return) and the near constant up-time of Major Heroism it grants in most situations. I , for one, don't care if all of my shields are gone instantaneously when I'm under pressure. I'm still getting back over half of the magicka I expended to cast the skill in addition to 6 seconds of Major Heroism which I think to be way too much and should instead be 3 seconds. And you say that if my suggestion did happen, it would be way too severe a nerf for PvE (and honestly I could dovetail this whole discussion into an argument on the separation of balancing for PvE and PvP). But honestly, I can't come up with a solution that that makes this skill adequate in both PvE and PvP. I mean maybe it could give 1.5 seconds of Major Heroism on each absorb making it good in PvE and maybe viable in PvP if the base skill was buffed.

SydneyGrey · September 2017

Ya, nerf the weakest class in the game. Good job, OP.
Healing is the one thing that wardens do well, and people want to take that away from them. That'll just make wardens completely useless.

Sharee · September 2017

Trinotops wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Warden is not OP. You can literally make then useless by rooting them because Scorch travels in wherever their character is facing, and Shimmering Shield is buggy and can shatter every tick of certain abilities. Keep in mind that whenever a Warden summons their little forest, they don't have a Damage-dealing Ult ready since this is an Ult they are using just to survive.

I didn't say Warden was OP, I merely said that Warden has two skills that are performing a little too well.

If you take a perfectly balanced class and then give him a skill that overperforms, you will end up with a class that is OP.

If the warden isn't OP despite these two skills performing 'little too well', then it means the skills' performance balances out something about the class that performs badly(otherwise they would make the warden OP, yes?).

What i am tryin to say, these skills are all part of the overall package. You cannot pick out a single skill and claim it overperforms, you always have to judge the performance of the class as a whole. If the class as a whole does not overperform, then whatever part of it you believe is overperforming instead just balances out the classes' deficiencies.

Yeah, easy access to major heroism is very powerful, and it would be too powerful - on another class.

DeHei · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

As for balance - according to yu Warden as a whole is underperforming, yet their Ult Gen is strong? This means that even with powerful Ult Gen (a trait of the Warden class that makes them unique) they still underperform....therefore nerf the underperforming class so they are as close to useless as possible?

Wardens are underperforming in PVE. Not in PVP. And just because they are undeperforming in PVE it doesnt mean they should have stupid mechanics in PVP. Buff them in PVE but those stupid mechanics in PVP have to be addressed.

Shimmering can give you prety much 100% uptime on major heroism when u are under pressure, it costs almost nothing, it mitigates a f*ckton of dmg and you pop healing ults every 10-15 seconds getting a f*ckton of healing. You can literally almost have 100% uptime on the healing ult. Its beyond stupid.

Enough with this stupid tank meta. There was a time when defensive ults cost a lot (magma, nova, atro, standard etc) and people had to actually think when to use them. Now everyone and their mother are popping snb ults, resto ults and warden ults every few seconds and refuse to die.

True, but warden cant kill anybody with that. Sure his ult reg is as high as ***, BUT i played warden allready, you dont have many place to slot right skills. Trust me, be happy, when warden use this skill and just stay tough. Yesterday i killed a warden while he was in his forest with shimmering shield active! Good i was Emp, but WTF. Just few dots and ground effects, he couldnt go out, cause of surely dead, so he stayed inside and was dead because of my burst. Just play a dotbuild against this guys and all permablocker and you will see it works fine.. Most guys only think direct damage is the way to go in PvP. That was true, but isnt anymore because of these new builds and these many tough warden player!

Mojomonkeyman · September 2017

OP is obviously a stamina warden and has not the slightest clue about mag warden gameplay. Stamwarden doesnt suffer many of the shortcomings a magwarden has to play around (no gapclose, no execute, very immobile, no ult gain/cost reduc sets like werewolf hide or tava's to make efficient use of). A stamwarden even has more healing with vigor and rally pumping in hots.

Magwardens rely heavily on that ult gain. Without that we are dead meet. We do not necessarily have staffs equipped which makes regularly triggering light attacks a burden and not reliable for ult regen (no gapclose).

Stop talking about stuff you don't understand, OP. Thank you very much.

pieratsos · September 2017

Sharee wrote: »

Trinotops wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Warden is not OP. You can literally make then useless by rooting them because Scorch travels in wherever their character is facing, and Shimmering Shield is buggy and can shatter every tick of certain abilities. Keep in mind that whenever a Warden summons their little forest, they don't have a Damage-dealing Ult ready since this is an Ult they are using just to survive.

I didn't say Warden was OP, I merely said that Warden has two skills that are performing a little too well.

If you take a perfectly balanced class and then give him a skill that overperforms, you will end up with a class that is OP.

If the warden isn't OP despite these two skills performing 'little too well', then it means the skills' performance balances out something about the class that performs badly(otherwise they would make the warden OP, yes?).

What i am tryin to say, these skills are all part of the overall package. You cannot pick out a single skill and claim it overperforms, you always have to judge the performance of the class as a whole. If the class as a whole does not overperform, then whatever part of it you believe is overperforming instead just balances out the classes' deficiencies.

Yeah, easy access to major heroism is very powerful, and it would be too powerful - on another class.

Just because warden isnt broken OP it doesnt mean that those 2 abilities are fine and it also doesnt give wardens an excuse to have broken abilities. Yes warden is fine for the most part . That is until those 2 skills come into play. The moment u start taking pressure as a warden the class does become completely OP. Period. I played a warden. You can literally spam shimmering even if you have no magicka sustain cause it costs almost nothing, u mitigate tons amounts of dmg, and you get enough ult to pop ur healing ult every 10-15 seconds. Thats almost the entire duration of the ult. Its stupid.

Enough with those stupid cheap defensive ults. Resto ult, snb ult and warden healing ult should cost at least 150.