Level scaling is a deal breaker

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · September 2017

Jamini wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Was this an open letter to your feelings?

You guys are great, just great.
A guy gives his opinion then people like you appear out of the woodwork, good job.

STEVIL · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Dude that's not what I'm saying, you are straw manning (and why I don't know). I didn't say ESO or games like it aren't RPGs. I said levels are an integral part of RPG systems and if you remove them - or attempt to - they are inevitably replaced by other things that serve the same function. Mitigating their effect and role has negative consequences for systems built upon them e.g. level scaling. You would understand this if you ever tried to build a game without them. I have, and in the final few months of its 5+ year production it reverted to a (half-assed) level system because it didn't work any other way.

That's all I'm saying. These are the reasons I don't like scaling, and why I think it is a counter-intuitive, inelegant solution to problems I acknowledge are there with a leveling system. It undermines a foundational part of the formula that makes an RPG an RPG. I think with scaling the trade-off is a bad one, and what you lose is a lot more than what you gain.

That's all I'm saying.

From first post...
"Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG."

Now, Dude, how you can consider it strawmanning to dispute your claim about ESO not being an RPG when again it is in your first post explicitly stated???

kmontywrwb17_ESO · September 2017

I qualified what I meant by that though. I was speaking subjectively i.e. when the sense of progression is lost the thing that makes it an RPG is gone as well. Sorry though, it was clumsy.

altemriel · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

in case you are on PC EU, can I have your stuff??
@altemriel

kmontywrwb17_ESO · September 2017

altemriel wrote: »

in case you are on PC EU, can I have your stuff??
@altemriel

Believe me, you don't want my stuff.

STEVIL · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I qualified what I meant by that though. I was speaking subjectively i.e. when the sense of progression is lost the thing that makes it an RPG is gone as well. Sorry though, it was clumsy.

You keep circling and circling the same argument which still is dependent on itself.

The sense of progression is lost *now* cuz of how armor and character level mismatches work now (even though they worked the same before except for the floaty number labels)
the SoP was necessary for ESO to be an RPG cuz to be an RPG have to have sense of progression (based on your new personal definition of RPG which seems to have yanked the Role Playing for Ranks Progressing)*
and so you are not saying ESO is not an RPG now even though it has lost that sense of progression which RPGs have to have.

look, you dont like scaling cuz the numbers are now lower when you let your gear fall behind instead of having higher numbers even when in both cases against foes of your character level the results are the same, fine. i see it as a superficial difference but then again some folks bet on football games based on uniforms color and mascots every day.

You want to have your own personal definition of RPg to be Rank Progressive Game, fine, some say to-may-to some say Fork.

but you try and throw those in an argument to support a why you do something you gotta expect that chain of "logic" and premises to conclusion to be challenged and that it might be unconvincing or nonsensical to some.

Me? ESO always had scaling for both its PVE and PVP. the major change as far as scaling is concerned is not scaling is tied to character level regardless of political faction and geography and sequence of play and so the overall gameplay is much more flexible, fluid and intuitive. A bear in glenumbra is not vastly inferior to a bear in auridon for one character of a certain political outlook while the two bears reverse their relative power level for another character of the same class, race, level and gear who has a different political outlook. As far as "contextually" speaking, that makes a lot more sense to me.

but to each his own.

But perhaps we can find common ground on that tryhard 2's unworthiness to be considered an integer?

:-)

Enjoy

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2017

After all this, I'm still not sure why they didn't remove levels with OT. And just start right away with cp. rescale the crafting items to different cp levels and call it a day. The whole grind 1-50 is pointless in this game and just served to slow you down.

And before you charge in and say no as you level you get more skills... no you actually don't. You get them from leveling up the skill lines and getting skill points. You gain no skills just by leveling you character. Again no skills are unlocked by reaching a certain level with your character. You could have easily made those skills points unlock at cp progressions and given stat points the same way. And your skills would unlock in exactly the same way, as you level the skill lines.

But instead we are left with a completely useless leveling system just there to slow you down and confuse people.

GawdSB · September 2017

Wait, what happened? I've been gone for a little.

The whole a lvl 2 is as powerful as a cp 160+ thing?

Bouldercleave · September 2017

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Was this an open letter to your feelings?

You guys are great, just great.
A guy gives his opinion then people like you appear out of the woodwork, good job.

Be careful, I called someone out on another thread for the exact same thing and got a verbal tongue lashing from the mods with a warning that I'll be banned if it happens again - and I was defending ZoS and their Horns of the Reach Giveaway.

Apparently you can act like a two year old here, but if you call someone out for acting like a two year old - you are the aggressor and they are the victim.

Bouldercleave · September 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

After all this, I'm still not sure why they didn't remove levels with OT. And just start right away with cp. rescale the crafting items to different cp levels and call it a day. The whole grind 1-50 is pointless in this game and just served to slow you down.

And before you charge in and say no as you level you get more skills... no you actually don't. You get them from leveling up the skill lines and getting skill points. You gain no skills just by leveling you character. Again no skills are unlocked by reaching a certain level with your character. You could have easily made those skills points unlock at cp progressions and given stat points the same way. And your skills would unlock in exactly the same way, as you level the skill lines.

But instead we are left with a completely useless leveling system just there to slow you down and confuse people.

The ONLY reasons that they kept levels:

They had to find a way to distribute the 64 attribute points and skill points associated with the original leveling.

They would have had to revamp the ENTIRE crafting system as well as materials as they are still tier based. That would have had to change with the elimination of levels because there would only be the need for one type of material.

They could have found a way to fix both of these issues, but chose to do it this way instead. I can think of about a dozen solutions for both of these issues, but no one asked me....

Mayanpup · September 2017

I have played under both ESO and One Tamriel. I am a solo player and I found in exciting that under ESO there were places I was not even close to finishing solo - and I really liked that! I could pace myself somewhat and never fear that a challenge often awaits me up the road. The game really felt immersive. I felt like I was growing when that new sword did double the damage of my old one (60 from 30)

One Tamriel really changed that. Now without any armor or weapons your Magicka, Health and Stamina are the highest at level 1 - and keep declining. For you to progress in attibutes equipment and enchantments (and food) are absolutely necessary for increases. With pretty much being able to travel anywhere a method had to be devised to level the playing field.

Though I prefer the ESO system I am not unhappy with OT.

But I still miss the step by step (RPG) approach.

I realize there is no going back. :'(

hmsdragonfly · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Was this an open letter to your feelings?

To the devs, actually. You never know, they may decide to address the issue in the future, and if so, they're aware quite of few of us would be playing if not for scaling. That's all, carry on.

It would be an issue if the majority of people didn't like it. But in fact, the player base increased since level scaling was introduced, the number of average players on steam tripled since the One Tamriel update. http://steamcharts.com/app/306130

So no, it's not "an issue". Sorry that you don't like it but the majority of people do. Take a look at Oblivion, take a look at Skyrim. People loved it there, people love it here.

tinythinker · September 2017

Tandor wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't personally agree with the OP but for god sake, can a person not express a stance without being piled upon. OP doesn't like scaling and that's a valid stance to take. Its important that devs know how people like or dislike aspects of the game

If the OP simply wanted to inform ZOS of his view then he could have PMd or emailed them. By posting his view on a discussion board he is inviting.... a discussion.

Being rudely dismissed, or in some cases observed in various threads, *** upon, isn't a discussion.

Thank you for demonstrating what discussion actually looks like, even when people disagree.

hmsdragonfly · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

I explained why I posted above. If there is no power progression and everything scales to match where you're at, it's no longer an RPG system. It's something else. It's an absolute difference, and effects every other area of the game. What is the point of levels if there is no difference between a level 1 area and a level 50 area?

I didn't explain that because it's all been said before and the same counter arguments will now be proffered with the same disdain and disagreement. Fair enough, and hey ***. For many of us it's a deal breaker.

RPG = Role-playing game.

What you described is not an "RPG system", it is the outdated leveling system that was used in an MMORPG game called World of Warcraft. RPG games don't have to use that leveling system, recent RPGs are moving away from that outdated game design, successful RPG games like Oblivion, Skyrim and Witcher 3 no longer utilize that leveling system.

Making mobs in level 50 area much stronger than mobs in level 1 area is stupid. Firstly it's not immersive. You talked about feeling of progression, so how does it feel when you destroy armies of undead in the recent zone then get rekt by freaking mudcrabs in the next zone? Mudcrabs, of all things in the world. It feels unimmersive, and it feels stupid. Secondly, it renders previous zones unplayable. There's no point of doing content in previous zones, because you just sneeze and mobs die, it's not fun, and it feels stupid. So, everyone is scrambled into the max level zone, which makes 90% of the open world "dead zones". No one is there and there's nothing to do. Why bother spending resources in making an open world game when 90% of the playable area is dead? Thirdly, a mudcrab being stronger than an undead Lich Lord is stupid. So, it's a stupid system overall.

The point of leveling is that it provides you extra "skill points" (or something similar) so that you can further improve aspects of your character. Now that's progression done right. This is a practice that has been used in all recent openworld RPGs: Mass Effect, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 4, Witcher 3 etc

Gaming is simply evolving past your preference. Sorry.

altemriel · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

in case you are on PC EU, can I have your stuff??
@altemriel

Believe me, you don't want my stuff.

why not?

ThePrinceOfBargains · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

TheMaster you're still grinding. Actually if the power curve in ESO only really begins post max level/160 CP, the grind is even more than in the traditional non-level scaling version. Only the grind doesn't imbue any power until that point. It's a very strange trade off.

That's true and the grind itself is still very tedious. But the content is no longer hidden behind that grind. Quest level requirements don't jump up by one every mission. I can play through any quest or story I want to. If there's a specific questline I want to play, I can just go do it at any time. That's especially convenient for people that work or go to school.

Chadak · September 2017

I prefer the level scaling. Its made everywhere relevant no matter what level any of my characters are on, and I can adventure around just fine with others of any level, wherever we might want to go in the world.

PurpleDrank · September 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

What you described is not an "RPG system", it is the outdated leveling system that was used in an MMORPG game called World of Warcraft. RPG games don't have to use that leveling system, recent RPGs are moving away from that outdated game design, successful RPG games like Oblivion, Skyrim and Witcher 3 no longer utilize that leveling system.

Not just recent games, Ultima Online which has been going since 1997 (with a pure subscription model I might add) has no levels as such, just a use-to-improve skill system combined with equipment.

kmontywrwb17_ESO · September 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

What you described is not an "RPG system", it is the outdated leveling system that was used in an MMORPG game called World of Warcraft. RPG games don't have to use that leveling system, recent RPGs are moving away from that outdated game design, successful RPG games like Oblivion, Skyrim and Witcher 3 no longer utilize that leveling system.

RPGs and MMOs began long before WoW my friend. WoW was a copy and paste job in almost every aspect apart from the UI. Every single CPRG before 2000, MUDs, and EverQuest all called and would like a word. To say a system that works (best IMO, and without logistical absurdities such as getting weaker if your gear is below your level) and which many people prefer is outdated is pretty amazing hubris. Assassin's Creed: Origins has just *added* the same "outdated" system.

It's preference in the end, though, I understand. You prefer the treadmill where you run and go nowhere. I prefer the steep slope, and a clear graduation of player power. But you will never experience the thrill of going back to an old area and feeling your new level of power, or the terror of slipping around the edge of a map because if any of the higher level mobs see you, you're history. You will never know the feeling of accomplishment that comes with earning a level that allows you into content you couldn't get to before.

That feeling of power difference is not possible to anywhere near the same extent in the system you prefer. That's what you lose.

GawdSB · September 2017

People like to see the power of their character go up as they level. So, I get what OP is saying. I too like to see the power increase instead of everyone being the same power wise.

kichwas · September 2017

Slick_007 wrote: »

Maybe they could just scale the DLC so that everyone can do the DLC at any time, but leave the base zones back as they were. I think that would agree with most people.

That would just make this like WoW - where 90% of the game is 'retired content' that Zenimax still has to pay a server bill to maintain...

That's basically a worst of both worlds solution.

kichwas · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

lvl scalling has nothing to do with I being an RPG. Just that not all games are for everyone. why they are all different.

Levels are absolutely a core mechanic of RPGs, and always have been. There are solid mathematical reasons for that. As someone who has worked on a game that tried (and failed) to build a level-less system, I'm more certain of that than ever. Also, if you played any of the table top systems that tried to base everything on skills, you would understand the absolute difference. If you don't have levels, you have something else that you call by another name that essentially does the same thing. There are many reasons for that, most of them tedious and pragmatic, but they are fundamental and unavoidable.

In 1979 a 15th level fighter fighting 15th level foes but armed with say +1 or normal gear had a harder time than when he was level 5 fighting level 5 foes with that same gear.

And then Champions and GURPS came along and said 'levels? [snip] is that?"

And games after them even removed skill points and so on... but then the internet came along and said "your table top RPG... [snip] is that?"

And here we are... in MMOs... and more and more of them are saying... "levels, [snip] is that?" while VR is trying (but not yet succeeding) to say, "your computer screen... [snip] is that?"

Even WoW is trying to ditch this stuff... they're probably looking at the bill for keeping all those dead zones online... and having to have so many split servers with shrinking populations because you can only fit so many people into 5 zones at a time... Level scale and go mega-server, and everything comes back to life.
[edited for profanity bypass]

Linaleah · September 2017

honestly, it kinda feels OP that you are arguing semantics in a way. because the mobs you see appear to you the same level no matter where you go, you feel like you are not leveling? or something. that's the thing though, in terms of upgrading gear - NOTHING has changed. well, no, I lie. something HAS changed for the better. you will now ALWAYS get gear drops/quest rewards of appropriate level to you, instead of getting things you either cannot wear yet, or that are too low of a level to be of any other use then vendor trash. you still get unusable gear, but at least ALL the gear you get as you level? is of approrpiate level to you which I'm not seeing as anything other then improvement.

that said though, upgrading your gear was always a thing. its part of the progression you are missing out on.

as I have said before, what level scaling did, what it actualy did? was open up the world. I'm honestly having trouble seeing how its a bad thing. well.. I see how someone might be sad they cannot go back and smash through obsolete content anymore, all content now provides at least modicum of challenge. but at the same time.. you have a choice now. you can stick to old linear story progression path. or you can skip the story you may not be enjoying as much and move on to the story you like better.

kichwas · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

@STEVIL Your referencing is wrong I'm afraid. Original D&D characters only went up to level 10. That was maximum power, apart from gear. In fact, there could only ever be one level 10 Druid in any one version of the D&D world. To get to level 10 you had to defeat the current level 10 in combat (a fantastic mechanic BTW).

My 1978 Player's Handbook -bought when it was new- has a chart to 11, and a note below it saying "x Xp per level thereafter" for most classes.

The Cleric has a spell table up to level 29. But no level cap on the class.

The Druid is weird. It ends at 14.

1E AD&D was a weird mess of conflicting systems like that though... Many of the systems were written apart from each other as magazine articles over the course of the 1970s...

Some of that was pretty horrible. I still have a magazine around here somewhere that presents a new "race": the female... with all the accompanying 'these writers really are geeks who have never met a live woman' indications and stereotyping you would expect...

It's really not a good thing to cite as an example of how to design a game... It was first. and it shows... Gygax was stumbling through a whole new concept on how to game back then... And he put a lot of really bad junk into that stuff, like the origin for the Drow being the same as the one the Klan used to say was the origin of African people...

hmsdragonfly · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

What you described is not an "RPG system", it is the outdated leveling system that was used in an MMORPG game called World of Warcraft. RPG games don't have to use that leveling system, recent RPGs are moving away from that outdated game design, successful RPG games like Oblivion, Skyrim and Witcher 3 no longer utilize that leveling system.

RPGs and MMOs began long before WoW my friend. WoW was a copy and paste job in almost every aspect apart from the UI. Every single CPRG before 2000, MUDs, and EverQuest all called and would like a word. To say a system that works (best IMO, and without logistical absurdities such as getting weaker if your gear is below your level) and which many people prefer is outdated is pretty amazing hubris. Assassin's Creed: Origins has just *added* the same "outdated" system.

It's preference in the end, though, I understand. You prefer the treadmill where you run and go nowhere. I prefer the steep slope, and a clear graduation of player power. But you will never experience the thrill of going back to an old area and feeling your new level of power, or the terror of slipping around the edge of a map because if any of the higher level mobs see you, you're history. You will never know the feeling of accomplishment that comes with earning a level that allows you into content you couldn't get to before.

That feeling of power difference is not possible to anywhere near the same extent in the system you prefer. That's what you lose.

I have never said that WoW invented that system or anything, I said it's the system that is used in WoW. Again, what you referred to is not an "RPG system", it is a system that is used in some RPGs and made popular by an MMORPG called World of Warcraft but RPG games don't have to use that system, and as a matter of fact many great RPG games recently like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher don't utilize that system at all.

Many people "liked" (not prefered, but liked, also past tense) because there was nothing else better for them. As soon as people have better alternatives, the majority of players prefer the alternatives. You see the success of Mass Effect. You see the success of Oblivion. You see the success of Skyrim. You see the success of Witcher 3. As for this game, ESO's playerbase on steam tripled since the introduction of the new leveling system. So yes, the system you described is not as good, it's outdated and people prefer the alternatives. Sorry if you don't like it, gaming is simply evolving past your preference.

We don't know how leveling system in Assassin's Creed: Origins actually works in the released version, and how well the game itself is going to be received. It might be successful but it also might be a complete flop for all we know. So hold your breath. But that has nothing to do with the successful of Mass Effect, Oblivion, Skyrim and The Witcher and the succesful of the new leveling system.

"thrill of going back to an old area and feeling your new level of power", it might be "thrilled" for you, but for the majority of players sneezing enemies to death is boring and stupid. "New level of power" is about how you progress overtime. You used to kill a mudcrab in 30 seconds? Overtime, with more skill points spent and better gear, you will only need 10 seconds. With max CPs, you will be able to one-shot a mudcrab. Then you will be able to kill vet dungeons bosses. Then vet dungeons HM. Then then soloing world bosses. Then completing vet trials in Craglorn. Then completing vMA. The completing vHoF. That's new power of level done right, you see your improvements overtime. Destroying armies of undead in the recent zone then getting rekt by freaking mudcrabs in the next zone is simply stupid.

P/S: Oh, and it's not "my" preference. What I like is completely irrelevant, I am nobody. It's the preference of the majority of players, and it's the only thing that matters.

STEVIL · September 2017

GawdSB wrote: »

People like to see the power of their character go up as they level. So, I get what OP is saying. I too like to see the power increase instead of everyone being the same power wise.

having leveled six characters now since 1T came in, i gotta say i did not ever see a lack of progression myself as far as power goes. Again, the only change was the way the numbers are shown as far as your character's power. the real gain in power is the gradual gain in abilities and options and passives and so on that enable you to **actually** produce more output.

Go look at top tier players and you will see that while they have maxed level/cp they have also unlocked numerous skills and passives and acquired gear and rotations that all tie in together.

Gaining levels and bigger numbers and moving into new zones where the foes all have also higher numbers was the illusion of the progression, it was the "mask" not the face of the power gain.

The real power gain came from then and still does now having more abilities and passives and options that can be broght to bear in coordination against a set of foes. Be it thru multiple DoT layered on your foes while your other attacks rain down or unlocked ultimates and passive, the power gain remains and is striking.

Some may have gotten their jollies off by running back to what were then throw away zones and squashing with one shots things whose destruction literally was for nothing but the sport of killing the helpless, but that is not necessarily for everyone and is not a wonderful way to show advancement in the game.

Axoinus · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

Actually, I would correct you in that it is still a solid RPG. Level scaling actually makes it less MMOish.

STEVIL · September 2017

kichwas wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

lvl scalling has nothing to do with I being an RPG. Just that not all games are for everyone. why they are all different.

Levels are absolutely a core mechanic of RPGs, and always have been. There are solid mathematical reasons for that. As someone who has worked on a game that tried (and failed) to build a level-less system, I'm more certain of that than ever. Also, if you played any of the table top systems that tried to base everything on skills, you would understand the absolute difference. If you don't have levels, you have something else that you call by another name that essentially does the same thing. There are many reasons for that, most of them tedious and pragmatic, but they are fundamental and unavoidable.

In 1979 a 15th level fighter fighting 15th level foes but armed with say +1 or normal gear had a harder time than when he was level 5 fighting level 5 foes with that same gear.

And then Champions and GURPS came along and said 'levels? [snip] is that?"

And games after them even removed skill points and so on... but then the internet came along and said "your table top RPG... [snip] is that?"

And here we are... in MMOs... and more and more of them are saying... "levels, [snip] is that?" while VR is trying (but not yet succeeding) to say, "your computer screen... [snip] is that?"

Even WoW is trying to ditch this stuff... they're probably looking at the bill for keeping all those dead zones online... and having to have so many split servers with shrinking populations because you can only fit so many people into 5 zones at a time... Level scale and go mega-server, and everything comes back to life.

yup... I can honestly say i was stunned to see someone try to establish that to be an RPG means having to have levels and that progression. there have been so many different approaches over the years - and you did not even get into how many indie games got along with so little of the basic "turn tabletop combat game into more" baseline start-up.

Then again, three Tuesdays a month my FTF group gets together and with the five of us in the room there are 150+ combined yrs of RPG gaming experience and just shy of 300 yrs of combined life sitting around the table, soi i know my perspective is not that of the "target demo" for the current crop of games.
[edited to remove quote]

Rohamad_Ali · September 2017

This is all pretty much subjective . ZoS decided on level scaling and it was actually met with a majority of positive feedback . I would venture to say if you're experience is limited to levels 1-50 you will notice a larger power curve in the champion ranks and the system may mature more to your liking in the future .

SkoomaHoover · December 2017

You see I don't see why we can't have the best of both worlds?

If we have level scaling for generic enemies that you'll encounter around the world on the road and then when it comes down to missions or dungeons etc. there can be set levels. These don't have to be leveled per area, but levelled randomly scattered around the world. Maybe even have some scaled dungeons and missions. I mean it's not like this game is short of quests for this to work.

That way you'd still be able to travel around the world freely and pick up missions in different areas. However you'll also have that risk factor and excitement where you encounter a strong enemy that you can't defeat and may have to run away. It'll help those that feel like they aren't progressing and it'll also be cool for those people that want to be able to go everywhere and perhaps also help people who feel like the game loses challenge?

I don't know. I just feel like adding the level scaling is just a cheap solution to ESO's problems. They could have handled it better.