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STAMINA DPS IN PVE IS FINALLY SOMEWHAT BALANCED!!!
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Shadzilla✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
Agreed, period, close this thread.
This thread is devoted to congratulating ZOS on the balance they have achieved, no need to close it. ZOS takes so much hatred and negativity in these forums on a daily basis, when they really do well in certain aspects I like to make sure they know about it.1 -
MaselClass RepresentativeOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
Agreed, period, close this thread.
This thread is devoted to congratulating ZOS on the balance they have achieved, no need to close it. ZOS takes so much hatred and negativity in these forums on a daily basis, when they really do well in certain aspects I like to make sure they know about it.
I know, but there's too many people who are never satisfied on these forums...PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA3 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
And I disagree with your reasoning. The only reason we aren't seeing full stam groups is because of the limitation on mechanics. In DPS stamina is miles ahead and essentially you just need some ranged people to fill the slots. Nothing here about building accordingly.
The tank and heal argument is silly because they're completely different roles. DPS should be comparable to one another.
You summed it up perfectly yourself. Right now stamina is there to do DPS, and magicka is just there to be mechanic slaves. Dealing with adds on varlariel and going outer on Rakkhat.
That's fine, we dont have to agree. I will keep having fun and playing both my magic and stam toons depending on what my raid needs, and I assure you they need both, because raids do in fact have mechanics.
You can keep criticizing balance, but I just spent a year playing nothing but mSorc which was preceded by a year playing Nothing but mDK. During the DK era, raids where comprised of at least half if not more magic DKs, as they were top DPS. During the second half of the sorc Era, raids where basically 8 mSorcs. I switched to Sorc for a VMOL HM progression before they were OP, because we needed some range for, you know, mechanics.
For the first time in 2 years I am able to get on just about any one of my toons an contribute to a score run. That has NEVER been true in ESO until this patch. But hey, keep complaining about balance, you wont be the only one.
I've raided on my sorc since 2014. The time when they were the dead worst class with the rotation literally consisting of force pulse weaving, until now when they are actually in a good spot. I was inactive during the sorcs prime time, but I'm aware of how much they were overperforming during that time.
However, we've been in the stamina era before. This so called 'balance' of yours has existed before. Stamina toons pulling 15k dps ahead of magicka in vMoL when everyone was still working on getting their first HM clear in there. Same problem back then. Can't fill everyone in melee spots, so you were forced to have some ranged people in your group.
Back then everyone was talking about how stamina was crazily overpeforming in PVE. Now we have the same *** again. And now it's suddenly balanced?
What a joke.1 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭My DPS seems no different to before
stamsorc for the win!! Cheers for the Stormfist buff too 
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Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »My DPS seems no different to before stamsorc for the win!! Cheers for the Stormfist buff too
Is stormfist doing better than before ?? worth replacing velidreth and kragh ?0 -
DerpyShadowz✭✭✭✭Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Lurking in the shadows.1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Yeah, they are just in denial. Risk-reward is not a thing, explained in my previous comment. And you're right, mNB's blockade+path is meh. I'm thinking to add Sap essence spam (and then lightning heavy attack when low on magicka) just for trash pulls. Really like running the same skills and not have to switch often, but that could be an option. Either way, for some reason I'm above 15% of group dps in my group in most place somehow. Then in other places I'm below 10%. But then again, CM doesn't work well in some places, it counts some non-existant damage sometimes. It was especially noticeable in vICP in those rooms before the council boss.
And no , of course mNB doesn't pull anywhere close to stamina or sorcs. But that's okay for them - they enjoy their balance and it's the best it's ever been cause the classes they are playing and all their alts are all doing okay now. While there's still just no reason to take a mNB over some other classes.0 -
theamazingx✭✭✭✭DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Yeah, they are just in denial. Risk-reward is not a thing, explained in my previous comment. And you're right, mNB's blockade+path is meh. I'm thinking to add Sap essence spam (and then lightning heavy attack when low on magicka) just for trash pulls. Really like running the same skills and not have to switch often, but that could be an option. Either way, for some reason I'm above 15% of group dps in my group in most place somehow. Then in other places I'm below 10%. But then again, CM doesn't work well in some places, it counts some non-existant damage sometimes. It was especially noticeable in vICP in those rooms before the council boss.
And no , of course mNB doesn't pull anywhere close to stamina or sorcs. But that's okay for them - they enjoy their balance and it's the best it's ever been cause the classes they are playing and all their alts are all doing okay now. While there's still just no reason to take a mNB over some other classes.
I wouldn't call it denial. I think what a lot of people want is the math to back it up. It's true, blade cloak is a passive damage dealing defense whereas shields are actively cast, but their main purpose right now is mitigation of spike damage. Take Rakkhat hm for example. Every time he slams a pad? Shield. Every time a wave of pellets come from pad 0? Shield. Every time offtank gets void? Shield. Guilds just know how to teach the harder fights from that perspective. If you take 20k damage in .5 seconds from a *blocked* Threshing Wings, a void sphere coming from offtank, and a single void pellet, you're fine because more than half of it was absorbed. Now, if blade cloak is stacking additively with something such that it's actually reducing post-mitigation damage by more than 25%, enough to bring that spike down significantly, all the mag players would love to know that and take it into account. I'm intrigued enough to start testing myself. But for now, all that's seen on the forums is "i ran unspecified vet trials on a stam character and lived". Based on the average skill level of the playerbase, all that tells us is that regular vet Craglorns don't have high survivability checks, which isn't news.Edited by theamazingx on August 30, 2017 5:39PM0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »simply false.
i disagree with you entirely.
and no i'm not joking and yes i am serious.
Think we found the mag sorc, LET EVERYONE ELSE PLAY BRUH!
FTR this guy is the biggest magsorc hater in eso.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yep, it isn't news. But see, just like with current meta: once you meet survivability requirements - you invest the rest in DPS for the best result. And that's why something even less specified and more general as "high risk high reward" thing does not apply here. And defending that is denial.
Right now it is still pretty much a transition phase, some people still use their old builds maybe. It's too early to say anything about balance based on leader boards and what classes/build are represented there.
And yes, shields are nice and are already known, but what if you can morph/get more survivability on your stam builds sacrificing some DPS maybe but still being well ahead of magicka. I mean, the gap seems to be huge. That's not balanced, come on.0 -
theamazingx✭✭✭✭Yep, it isn't news. But see, just like with current meta: once you meet survivability requirements - you invest the rest in DPS for the best result. And that's why something even less specified and more general as "high risk high reward" thing does not apply here. And defending that is denial.
Right now it is still pretty much a transition phase, some people still use their old builds maybe. It's too early to say anything about balance based on leader boards and what classes/build are represented there.
And yes, shields are nice and are already known, but what if you can morph/get more survivability on your stam builds sacrificing some DPS maybe but still being well ahead of magicka. I mean, the gap seems to be huge. That's not balanced, come on.
I'm not saying it's balanced, but vulnerability to heavy spike in certain fights is risk, isn't it? Especially when elements of that spike aren't even mitigated by Cloak.Edited by theamazingx on August 30, 2017 7:37PM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.Yep, it isn't news. But see, just like with current meta: once you meet survivability requirements - you invest the rest in DPS for the best result. And that's why something even less specified and more general as "high risk high reward" thing does not apply here. And defending that is denial.
Right now it is still pretty much a transition phase, some people still use their old builds maybe. It's too early to say anything about balance based on leader boards and what classes/build are represented there.
And yes, shields are nice and are already known, but what if you can morph/get more survivability on your stam builds sacrificing some DPS maybe but still being well ahead of magicka. I mean, the gap seems to be huge. That's not balanced, come on.
I swear, it's like talking to a wall. Of course risk vs. reward exists, and of course it matters. Let's put it this way. What is the easiest class to play endgame PVE content as a DPS currently. By easiest, I mean your goal is to meaningful contribute and NOT F'ING DIE. There are only 2 possible answers to this question, magic Sorc and magic NB. Why? Simple, they play from ranged and therefore must deal with fewer mechanics. They also both have the ability to self heal while DPSing if they chose by either using funnel health or powersurge. Finally, the both have access to big shields. Both are more than capable of pulling 40-50k+ in trial fights.
What is the hardest class to play? Probably a stamina nightblade or stamina DK. They dont have good self heals unless they make room for vigor, while strong, their main sorce of mitigation (deadly cloak) is not as good as a shield, and they must play at melee which means they have more mechanics to deal with.
Now lets say you make it so a Magic Sorc and a Stamblade pull Identical DPS. Nobody would play the stamblade. Take it one step further, if all classes pulled identical DPS, you would only see mSorc and Mageblade in raids, because they have the same reward for less risk. This is not that difficult of a concept to grasp. It has also happened before. Back when raids where mostly 7-8 sorcs, I assure you, a stam DK could hit just as high with single target DPS, but NOBODY PLAYED THEM. The risk associated from bringing them to a raid was not justified as there was no extra reward for the presence.
Stamina has to pull more DPS than magic if you want balance, otherwise nobody would play stamina. The risk would outweigh the reward. We have already seen this occur, and most of us dont want to go back.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 30, 2017 7:44PM4 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Right now?? Mag Sorcerors are the kings and queens of PvE DPS ...... PERIOD.
I would gladly take a mag sorceror for a trial or hard dungeon than a stam blade... anytime... unless of course i know the sorc and he sucks...
Did you just emerge from a doomsday bunker? Not even close to the case any longer. Is the game perfectly balanced, nope, and guess what, it never will be. It is an impossible standard. That said, we are in a pretty darn good spot.
Stam is ahead of magic in Single target, and it should be. It is a more difficult melee playstyle. With risk comes reward. We are constrained by mechanics of having more than 4-5 of them in raid, so magic is still very much needed. Magic also has better AOE, altough the gap is closer than it used to be.
In terms of the stam class, yes, DK is still likely on top, but the other classes are all viable. Sorc is going to be the easiest to play, so its a good break in role because of the extra heals from crit surge. It also is going to have better AOE than others because of hurricane. Templar is behind in damage, but it brings a powerful Debuff with PotL. Stamblade, might actually have a higher celiing than DK, but it is certainly toughest to play so you dont see them as much. They do have a wonderful low cost ulti for War Machine Uptime.
Balance will never be perfect, but the days of 7-8 sorcs or behind us. That is a good thing.
doomsday bunker could not have described it better lol Edited by Vaoh on August 30, 2017 7:47PM2 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭theamazingx wrote: »I'm not saying it's balanced, but vulnerability to heavy spike in certain fights is risk, isn't it? Especially when elements of that spike aren't even mitigated by Cloak.
No, not having defensive buff and such is risk. Heavy spikes in certain fights are known. Once the way to survive them is found - it can be repeated and in the end can be done reliably. That is progress and learning the fight. Again, just remember how people were crying about vDSA and vMA (and still do), and how top score runs there have no deaths now.
If something is impossible to survive and the constant death rate is guaranteed (as in, certain amount of players in a group are guaranteed to not survive when taking the risk of playing melee), then there would be something to talk about. If it's not proven that it's technically impossible to survive something - then there's no risk-reward to talk about. In the end, when a fight is learned and deaths are minimized - there is no risk, just reward.
Not to mention,that according to this logic my DPS should be MAX when I'm naked just holding a weapon with 0 resistances or something like that.
There is no such thing as risk reward. There is such thing as uptime on target though. That's what it should be balanced around. And in most fights the uptime of melee is very close to that of rangers. Plus, all builds magicka and stamina can use ranged skills if they can't stay in melee. And in PvP with no cooldowns and gapclosers the uptime is high, too. Such DPS difference is not justified.0 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?Edited by Dymence on August 30, 2017 8:02PM0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
Can you guys just stop exaggerating... god its like most of the people here are never satisfied at all. The best raids use about half & half, what the hell do you want more?
You see basically all specs and classes on leaderboards now (except for magicka wardens, they definetely need help), so it's probably the best spot this game has been in for a long time.
^^^^^^^
Besides Wardens, the class balance and mag/stam balance is not bad at all. Sure we can complain about little things here and there, but for what it is ESO's balance is currently pretty great.
It took years for ZOS to figure it out. Warden is a new class that needs some serious adjustments to help them, but this is something that will come with time.4 -
DerpyShadowz✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.Lurking in the shadows.1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Noobplar0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Well two of those I listed, and for First VMOL boss and Warrior, those favor shields as much as range. Every fight t I mentioned favors having a few ranged magic DPS. Perhaps they dont all require them, and perhaps its more important on some than others, but they all help.
-Adds on varlariel are better dealt with by ranged players. They can simply turn and DPS without unnecssary movement.
-This is even more true on Mage, where often the mini mages are unapproachable by melee players because they are standing in red. They also have an small AOE that will one shot a stam player.
-Upstairs on HRC (split boss) is another fight that is much easier to play from range. Can a really good stam player do it? sure, but most trial groups send magic upstairs and stamina downstairs.
-Upstairs on VHOF second boss is a bit similar to backroom on Rakhaat. No you dont need to be ranged per se, but you dont have a healer so a shield is your best way to not die (which is a group wipe).
-Manti requires a ranged group to kite spears away from the group. Can a stam player do it? sure, but they wont be doing much DPS. A sorc or magebalde shines in that role.DerpyShadowz wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.
When "the other direction" takes you from 8 magic sorcs, to 4/4 magic/stam with a diverse class makeup, then yes, that improves balance. If it's not worth your time, stop typing. What would you have done, buff magic Sorc DPS?Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?
It's hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate like that. It is not a 15k difference. People made the same arguments last time. Alcast posts his best ever parse in full damage gear with 3 other support stam players, and people compare it to their below average sorc parse in a mediocre group and cry about how bad the balance is. Most good stam players are shooting for the low 50s and most good magic players are shooting for the mid to high 40s for single target.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 30, 2017 9:09PM5 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Well two of those I listed, and for First VMOL boss and Warrior, those favor shields as much as range. Every fight t I mentioned favors having a few ranged magic DPS. Perhaps they dont all require them, and perhaps its more important on some than others, but they all help.
-Adds on varlariel are better dealt with by ranged players. They can simply turn and DPS without unnecssary movement.
-This is even more true on Mage, where often the mini mages are unapproachable by melee players because they are standing in red. They also have an small AOE that will one shot a stam player.
-Upstairs on HRC (split boss) is another fight that is much easier to play from range. Can a really good stam player do it? sure, but most trial groups send magic upstairs and stamina downstairs.
-Upstairs on VHOF second boss is a bit similar to backroom on Rakhaat. No you dont need to be ranged per se, but you dont have a healer so a shield is your best way to not die (which is a group wipe).
-Manti requires a ranged group to kite spears away from the group. Can a stam player do it? sure, but they wont be doing much DPS. A sorc or magebalde shines in that role.DerpyShadowz wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.
When "the other direction" takes you from 8 magic sorcs, to 4/4 magic/stam with a diverse class makeup, then yes, that improves balance. If it's not worth your time, stop typing. What would you have done, buff magic Sorc DPS?Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?
It's hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate like that. It is not a 15k difference. People made the same arguments last time. Alcast posts his best ever parse in full damage gear with 3 other support stam players, and people compare it to their below average sorc parse in a mediocre group and cry about how bad the balance is. Most good stam players are shooting for the low 50s and most good magic players are shooting for the mid to high 40s for single target.
Exaggeration or not the point stands. Stamina overpeforms when compared to magicka DPS. On stationary bosses in the old craglorn trials your top tier stamina DD will be holding 10k DPS over your top tier magicka DD. And that is not exaggeration.
The gap only closes somewhat in vHoF due to excessive movement and DPS stop mechanics.
Some groups are already pushing for 6 stamina. That's 6/8 so your half/half argument is already invalid. Like I said, stamina overpeforms so much that top groups will just forcefully try to push as much stamina into their group as mechanically possible.Edited by Dymence on August 30, 2017 9:21PM0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Well two of those I listed, and for First VMOL boss and Warrior, those favor shields as much as range. Every fight t I mentioned favors having a few ranged magic DPS. Perhaps they dont all require them, and perhaps its more important on some than others, but they all help.
-Adds on varlariel are better dealt with by ranged players. They can simply turn and DPS without unnecssary movement.
-This is even more true on Mage, where often the mini mages are unapproachable by melee players because they are standing in red. They also have an small AOE that will one shot a stam player.
-Upstairs on HRC (split boss) is another fight that is much easier to play from range. Can a really good stam player do it? sure, but most trial groups send magic upstairs and stamina downstairs.
-Upstairs on VHOF second boss is a bit similar to backroom on Rakhaat. No you dont need to be ranged per se, but you dont have a healer so a shield is your best way to not die (which is a group wipe).
-Manti requires a ranged group to kite spears away from the group. Can a stam player do it? sure, but they wont be doing much DPS. A sorc or magebalde shines in that role.DerpyShadowz wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.
When "the other direction" takes you from 8 magic sorcs, to 4/4 magic/stam with a diverse class makeup, then yes, that improves balance. If it's not worth your time, stop typing. What would you have done, buff magic Sorc DPS?Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?
It's hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate like that. It is not a 15k difference. People made the same arguments last time. Alcast posts his best ever parse in full damage gear with 3 other support stam players, and people compare it to their below average sorc parse in a mediocre group and cry about how bad the balance is. Most good stam players are shooting for the low 50s and most good magic players are shooting for the mid to high 40s for single target.
This. All good raids use half & half. Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously. We did a vAA with 1 warden healer, 10 dds out of which 7 were stamina on Sunday for fun, and even on normal mode you won't get high scores because people die like flies. Having a second healer wouldn't have helped...
I think it's great when everyone has a role in the group. You can get raidspots with all specs now. Even magicka wardens are welcome in HoF because people want the Fascimile Achievement for the warden
Basically, stamina dds are meant to stay on the boss and reduce the health as fast as possible while the magicka dds focus on mechanics that favour them. What's the problem?
I'm having fun doing both roles.. It's not always about pulling the highest dps.PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA3 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Well two of those I listed, and for First VMOL boss and Warrior, those favor shields as much as range. Every fight t I mentioned favors having a few ranged magic DPS. Perhaps they dont all require them, and perhaps its more important on some than others, but they all help.
-Adds on varlariel are better dealt with by ranged players. They can simply turn and DPS without unnecssary movement.
-This is even more true on Mage, where often the mini mages are unapproachable by melee players because they are standing in red. They also have an small AOE that will one shot a stam player.
-Upstairs on HRC (split boss) is another fight that is much easier to play from range. Can a really good stam player do it? sure, but most trial groups send magic upstairs and stamina downstairs.
-Upstairs on VHOF second boss is a bit similar to backroom on Rakhaat. No you dont need to be ranged per se, but you dont have a healer so a shield is your best way to not die (which is a group wipe).
-Manti requires a ranged group to kite spears away from the group. Can a stam player do it? sure, but they wont be doing much DPS. A sorc or magebalde shines in that role.DerpyShadowz wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.
When "the other direction" takes you from 8 magic sorcs, to 4/4 magic/stam with a diverse class makeup, then yes, that improves balance. If it's not worth your time, stop typing. What would you have done, buff magic Sorc DPS?Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?
It's hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate like that. It is not a 15k difference. People made the same arguments last time. Alcast posts his best ever parse in full damage gear with 3 other support stam players, and people compare it to their below average sorc parse in a mediocre group and cry about how bad the balance is. Most good stam players are shooting for the low 50s and most good magic players are shooting for the mid to high 40s for single target.
This. All good raids use half & half. Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously. We did a vAA with 1 warden healer, 10 dds out of which 7 were stamina on Sunday for fun, and even on normal mode you won't get high scores because people die like flies. Having a second healer wouldn't have helped...
If you can't do vAA with 7 stamina that's more telling about the group than anything else. vAA is doable with 8 people on melee without running into any issues.0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Well two of those I listed, and for First VMOL boss and Warrior, those favor shields as much as range. Every fight t I mentioned favors having a few ranged magic DPS. Perhaps they dont all require them, and perhaps its more important on some than others, but they all help.
-Adds on varlariel are better dealt with by ranged players. They can simply turn and DPS without unnecssary movement.
-This is even more true on Mage, where often the mini mages are unapproachable by melee players because they are standing in red. They also have an small AOE that will one shot a stam player.
-Upstairs on HRC (split boss) is another fight that is much easier to play from range. Can a really good stam player do it? sure, but most trial groups send magic upstairs and stamina downstairs.
-Upstairs on VHOF second boss is a bit similar to backroom on Rakhaat. No you dont need to be ranged per se, but you dont have a healer so a shield is your best way to not die (which is a group wipe).
-Manti requires a ranged group to kite spears away from the group. Can a stam player do it? sure, but they wont be doing much DPS. A sorc or magebalde shines in that role.DerpyShadowz wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.
When "the other direction" takes you from 8 magic sorcs, to 4/4 magic/stam with a diverse class makeup, then yes, that improves balance. If it's not worth your time, stop typing. What would you have done, buff magic Sorc DPS?Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?
It's hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate like that. It is not a 15k difference. People made the same arguments last time. Alcast posts his best ever parse in full damage gear with 3 other support stam players, and people compare it to their below average sorc parse in a mediocre group and cry about how bad the balance is. Most good stam players are shooting for the low 50s and most good magic players are shooting for the mid to high 40s for single target.
This. All good raids use half & half. Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously. We did a vAA with 1 warden healer, 10 dds out of which 7 were stamina on Sunday for fun, and even on normal mode you won't get high scores because people die like flies. Having a second healer wouldn't have helped...
If you can't do vAA with 7 stamina that's more telling about the group than anything else. vAA is doable with 8 people on melee without running into any issues.
I didn't say we couldn't do it. I just said it's harder and more annoying to do it with a good score.PC EU
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Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »theamazingx wrote: »The damage differant from stam to magicka is to high. I am not talking from a comparisom from a stam melle to a sorc or some other range fighter, just from melee to melee. Mdk and Magplar are deleted from top raid guilds, also some range classes needs some love.
I feel your concern, but if it's any consolation, I found that you can spend ~10k gold to respec a dunmer magdk cp, morphs, and attributes to a stamdk that can pull up to 39k selfbuffed on a 6m dummy. Can't speak for templars, but dunmer DKs have the flexibility to adapt with a min/maxing team without rerolling or giving zos a dime.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Stam cannot push score without help from magic toons. You see a competition where none exist.
Stam doesn't need magicka toons to help them. They just need healers. The only reason you don't see full stamina completions is because it's not mechanically possible to have 8 DD's in melee in most trials.
I disagree with your reasoning. Those mechanics do in fact exist, and therefore they affect group makeup. That's like saying if a boss didnt need taunted, we wouldnt run a tank or if a boss didnt do damage we wouldnt need a healer. Those mechanics are inherent in just about every trial fight in the game so we must build accordingly. This is a good thing because it makes the fight more interesting and forces a bit of build diversity.
Furthermore, Many fights call for mechanics that favor having a few ranged and self reliant (big Shield) players in the group. Killing adds on Varlariel, mini mages on AA, Upstairs on HRC, Upstairs on VHOF second boss, VHOF Final boss, Back room on rakhaat, Speer team on manti, etc.
Sure if our goal was to murder a 50 million health dummy, we would all play stamina. But that is not the goal of this game for most of us.
You should better list fights where you actually need magicka....those are:
- rakkhat for runners
- First boss vmol for shield phase (you could technically let stam-dps go ranged)
- Warrior in HelRa citadel (same as in previous fight, stam could go ranged...wouldn't be a dps-loss bc mag-dps will have to shieldpsam anyway during starfall)
- VHof endboss for execute phase
So magicka-dps is needed in 2...4 fights in vet-trials. And only in 3/5 raids.
Well two of those I listed, and for First VMOL boss and Warrior, those favor shields as much as range. Every fight t I mentioned favors having a few ranged magic DPS. Perhaps they dont all require them, and perhaps its more important on some than others, but they all help.
-Adds on varlariel are better dealt with by ranged players. They can simply turn and DPS without unnecssary movement.
-This is even more true on Mage, where often the mini mages are unapproachable by melee players because they are standing in red. They also have an small AOE that will one shot a stam player.
-Upstairs on HRC (split boss) is another fight that is much easier to play from range. Can a really good stam player do it? sure, but most trial groups send magic upstairs and stamina downstairs.
-Upstairs on VHOF second boss is a bit similar to backroom on Rakhaat. No you dont need to be ranged per se, but you dont have a healer so a shield is your best way to not die (which is a group wipe).
-Manti requires a ranged group to kite spears away from the group. Can a stam player do it? sure, but they wont be doing much DPS. A sorc or magebalde shines in that role.DerpyShadowz wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Going completely in the other direction is greatly improved balance? OK, not worth my time.
When "the other direction" takes you from 8 magic sorcs, to 4/4 magic/stam with a diverse class makeup, then yes, that improves balance. If it's not worth your time, stop typing. What would you have done, buff magic Sorc DPS?Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »DerpyShadowz wrote: »Too many people underestimate how good blade cloak is now for survivability in comparison to shields, Its a cast and forget skill in rotation that deals damage and reduces your own by a considerable amount, many times over have i heard from various sources that the damage reduction from it feels like more than the intended % on the tooltip. With magicka you have to physically cast your shield when it is needed or preemptively cast it, and every time you do this you are casting a non-damage ability in comparison. Guilds are basically squeezing 6 stamina into a raid now, the argument that its risk vs reward is not really that big a factor anymore with the changes over the past few months.
People always come with the argument that stamina has considerably weaker cleave AoE than magicka and that this balances it out, Well lets take the mage fight for example (Axes are being tanked away from the centre and near the edge) Endless hail here can and will pull upwards of 16k+ due to various gear reasons, and caltrops will do an average of 8k here also, if not more, and certain classes have more than just these 2 normal skills dealing AoE as stamina.
Look at a Magicka NB, it has only two normal AoE ability's in its kit, now tell me that blockade and twisting will pull the same DPS combined in comparison to these stamina skills, because as far as im aware, you simply cant, Tell me that its ST pulls the same as a stams ST on this patch, because you simply cant, yet people say this is perfectly balanced.
Read the title of the thread. We are arguing that balance has greatly improved, not that it is perfect. IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT!!! The only way for perfect balance is to eliminate all class and to remove stam morphs from the game. That way, everyone plays the exact same magic toon. Most of us dont want to play that game. We have gone from 8 magic sorcs to 4/4 magic/stam with a variety of different classes. It is not perfect, but it is better than it ever has been.
Why has it improved? We've essentially just cycled back to an older patch like I said in my previous post. Back to Dark Brotherhood or whatever patch it was where stam pulled 15k over magicka. Back to where we push as much stamina into the group as mechanically possible.
That's your balance right?
It's hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate like that. It is not a 15k difference. People made the same arguments last time. Alcast posts his best ever parse in full damage gear with 3 other support stam players, and people compare it to their below average sorc parse in a mediocre group and cry about how bad the balance is. Most good stam players are shooting for the low 50s and most good magic players are shooting for the mid to high 40s for single target.
This. All good raids use half & half. Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously. We did a vAA with 1 warden healer, 10 dds out of which 7 were stamina on Sunday for fun, and even on normal mode you won't get high scores because people die like flies. Having a second healer wouldn't have helped...
If you can't do vAA with 7 stamina that's more telling about the group than anything else. vAA is doable with 8 people on melee without running into any issues.
I didn't say we couldn't do it. I just said it's harder and more annoying to do it with a good score.
Really now? You don't even remember your own posts?Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously.
You can do vAA with 8 stamina and get top leaderboard scores.
I don't know why you are trying so hard to make a point when you clearly have no top end experience.0 -
WhoSlappedThePie✭✭✭I didn't say we couldn't do it. I just said it's harder and more annoying to do it with a good score.[/quote]
Really now? You don't even remember your own posts?Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously.
You can do vAA with 8 stamina and get top leaderboard scores.
I don't know why you are trying so hard to make a point when you clearly have no top end experience.[/quote]
@Masel92 you just got served. What say you!?
"It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop."
Current Toons (Max CP):
Magsorc Breton
Magblade Darkelf
Stam DK Redguard
Healer Templar High Elf
Tank DK Argonian
Stamblade Redguard
Completed: vHoF | vMoL | vSO | vSO HM | vAA | vAA HM | vHR | vHR HM | vMA | vDSA0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeWhoSlappedThePie wrote: »I didn't say we couldn't do it. I just said it's harder and more annoying to do it with a good score.
Really now? You don't even remember your own posts?Try doing any trial with 8 stamina dds. Enjoy the wipefests, seriously.
You can do vAA with 8 stamina and get top leaderboard scores.
I don't know why you are trying so hard to make a point when you clearly have no top end experience.[/quote]
@Masel92 you just got served. What say you!?
[/quote]
Well saying that i dont have any top end experience is a straight up lie, and I couldn't care less about people trying to undermine my statements. What do you guys even gain from doing that? Ouch, people here are pathetic...Edited by Masel on August 31, 2017 11:33AMPC EU
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WhoSlappedThePie✭✭✭He has spoken @Dymence what say you now?!"It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop."
Current Toons (Max CP):
Magsorc Breton
Magblade Darkelf
Stam DK Redguard
Healer Templar High Elf
Tank DK Argonian
Stamblade Redguard
Completed: vHoF | vMoL | vSO | vSO HM | vAA | vAA HM | vHR | vHR HM | vMA | vDSA0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeWhoSlappedThePie wrote: »He has spoken @Dymence what say you now?!
Are you the new moderator here? Please don't let this become a thread with arguments noone needs... PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
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WhoSlappedThePie✭✭✭@WhoSlappedThePie he has summoned your response! What say y.... oh wait thats me.
Nah, it's just funny xD plus I'm a little bit bored at work."It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop."
Current Toons (Max CP):
Magsorc Breton
Magblade Darkelf
Stam DK Redguard
Healer Templar High Elf
Tank DK Argonian
Stamblade Redguard
Completed: vHoF | vMoL | vSO | vSO HM | vAA | vAA HM | vHR | vHR HM | vMA | vDSA0
good job !