Just look at the threads of people complaining that they "have" to go vamp to remain competitive minmaxers but don't want to be so ugly. Threads of people begging for some way to hide vampirism when the advice "don't be a vampire" is rejected outright. I'm not saying it's a fact that vampirism is beneficial, but too many people "feel" as though it is. Instead of a thread suggesting that it is nerfed so it doesn't look so "mandatory" I'm suggesting that werewolf come up to vamp level. One way would be to return the passive stam regen without having to slot the ultimate. Even if it's like 8% unslotted, and full 15% slotted.

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Ever tried bloodspawn???? LMAO

Ever tried Brain???? LMAO
its pretty terrible on werewolfs.

I was thinking about a way to make WW as good as vampire for a while, requiring transformation and worst, locking you out of skills kills WW completely, also it makes all WW look the same, without looking at the icon, can you tell the a WW player class? It would be pretty difficult, their only differences are passive ones.

So I was thinking about a middle ground, WW needs buffs and nerfs to compensata those buffs.

1. WW needs 2 bars, period. You lose a lot of versatility just for transforming.
2. WW Transformation must be a toggle and not a timer, and maybe not even a ultimate one, maybe another key could be bound just for transforming.
3. WW could use a compromise, instead if having all skills avaliable like vampires, they could use non-weapon skills since you got paws now, kinda like Overload sorks for sorcerers.
4. WW could have their own ultimate based on berserker (like some huge aoe claw swipe with stun) or a pack leader (buffing howl or w/e)
5. Some passives would work on human form but on a lower degree. Like the Savage Strength would increase the weapon damage by 1% / 2% in human form. Passives based on duration shoul be reworked with a similar framework: micro buffs to human form and okay buffs to wolf form.
6. Poison vulnerability and FG bonus would apply to human form in a lesser degree, like 5% too, and the defense buff for transforming would go to like 2k while in wolf form (since it would be free to transform) and 750 for human.
7. Some more bursty WW skills could use a nerf in this case and a cost reduction, also fixing WW heavy attacks to restore decent stamina would help a lot.

These are just rough ideas for a healthy compromise without taking away the uniqueness of wolf and vamp, also the numbers here are just figure, take all with a grain of salt.

What you think about it?

max_only wrote: »

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I was thinking about a way to make WW as good as vampire for a while, requiring transformation and worst, locking you out of skills kills WW completely, also it makes all WW look the same, without looking at the icon, can you tell the a WW player class? It would be pretty difficult, their only differences are passive ones.

So I was thinking about a middle ground, WW needs buffs and nerfs to compensata those buffs.

1. WW needs 2 bars, period. You lose a lot of versatility just for transforming.
2. WW Transformation must be a toggle and not a timer, and maybe not even a ultimate one, maybe another key could be bound just for transforming.
3. WW could use a compromise, instead if having all skills avaliable like vampires, they could use non-weapon skills since you got paws now, kinda like Overload sorks for sorcerers.
4. WW could have their own ultimate based on berserker (like some huge aoe claw swipe with stun) or a pack leader (buffing howl or w/e)
5. Some passives would work on human form but on a lower degree. Like the Savage Strength would increase the weapon damage by 1% / 2% in human form. Passives based on duration shoul be reworked with a similar framework: micro buffs to human form and okay buffs to wolf form.
6. Poison vulnerability and FG bonus would apply to human form in a lesser degree, like 5% too, and the defense buff for transforming would go to like 2k while in wolf form (since it would be free to transform) and 750 for human.
7. Some more bursty WW skills could use a nerf in this case and a cost reduction, also fixing WW heavy attacks to restore decent stamina would help a lot.

These are just rough ideas for a healthy compromise without taking away the uniqueness of wolf and vamp, also the numbers here are just figure, take all with a grain of salt.

What you think about it?

Sound op... don't get me wrong, I love ww but my goal is to get ww on par for stamina builds (an always on passive).

1) I'm not sure what could go on the second bar in your suggestion, werewolves don't have the animations to use weapon or class skills

2) a toggle ultimate would be better, like Overload. It's too powerful to just be a regular skill

3) okay lol we agree here obviously bc I just wrote that

4) see 2

5) yes this is what I want. I'm still affected by lycanthropy in humanoid form, I should be more resilient (stam recovery) and or more deadly for having wolf blood.

6) sounds like a good compromise for poison and FG to apply to humanoid form to a lesser degree the way the ww buffs apply.

7) cost reduction would be amazing but I won't hold my breath

Well, these were rough ideas of a compromise, I dont think that would be too OP, since weapon skills would be out of question since they disappear when you transform. If you compare to Vampire, they have both bars, all skills avaliable and all their passives.

This idea would need something like a generic animation for werewolf of a "casting, channeling, swiping" so you could fit the skills.

Answering your question, if you saw a bugged WW (where the player is not on WW form anymore but you still see him/her as such and see the skills animations like DK wings) before its more or less what im thinking, a backbar could contain useful buffs of your class, like netch, hurricane, merciless resolve, shuffle, you lose access to many buffs you could use in WW form.

The cost reduction and nerf of burst would be to bring it all on par to the other lines, so WW could be a complement of you character like vampire is, instead of a "90% replace".

The overload toggle could be ok, depleted over time? Since WW would be nerfed to not be a insane powerhouse, you could expect a more slow degadration of the timer.

And we all know how difficult is having to sustain as a WW, we would need at leaat a fix on how much HA's restore.

Thanks for your input

waitwhat wrote: »

I agree with OP.

Was a long-time WW before switching to Vamp, and I just had to switch to vamp for tanking. I was a very good PvP WW too.

Here's why vamp is just better for everyone, stam and magicka:

1) The 15% stam regen from WW requires you to sacrifice the ulti slot, whereas a vamp gets 10% stam and magicka recovery just by being a vamp.
2) I say "sacrifice the ulti slot" because werewolves cannot resurrect other players while transformed. Goodbye werewolf in end-game vet PvE content.
3) The flame damage you take as a vamp is overcome by the damage resistance you gain as your health gets lower, in addition to the points you can put in Elemental Defender. I can bathe in oils on the breach all day, and tank CoA II vet at stage four no problem. As a stamblade in medium armor, the times I do take extra flame damage are more than outweighed by all the times I took non-flame damage and had the extra mitigation.
4) If you want to gank and live as a stamblade, you need the sneak and mitigation passives.
5) WWs require support in PvP. CC the WW and they're dead. Apply a poison DoT and they're in trouble. All they have is Hircine's Rage/Hircine's Bounty, and that heal is so expensive on a stam build that they can cast it three times consecutively at most.
6) At about 333 ultimate, WW is the most expensive ultimate in the game. Getting it down to 200 requires salvation, which means you pretty much have to go all in to being a WW.

The one pro of being a WW is that it's fun. It would be nice to have it be fun and useful with the same breadth of utility that vamp has.

I agree completely, not only you sacrifice the ultimate, you sacrifice the entire other bar that could have dots and buffs, and all non-WW skills for a toolset that gives burst, but dont complements your class or playstyle, making you very poor as a PVE DPS and okay-ish on PVP but maybe not better than what you could be using both of your bars and 2 ults.

Thats why I gave the ideas above so we can pair WW with what Vampire is, a gradual complement with tradeoffs and stages (in ww case 2 stages, human and wolf form).

It would be kinda cool if lycanthropy were more apparent by looking at a character.

With vampires you can notice it insanely easily...you can even tell which ones haven't fed in a while.

RouDeR wrote: »

Wherewolves are not ment to do end game PVE , WW is for PvP and when the player build for it u can easily 1vX even PRO players cuz of the powerful dots and defile. The healing with the right sets is absolutely insane , the only problem is that 99% of the players who are trying to be a WW in Cyro build for Damage which is stupid . WW needs 1 Sustain set and 1 tanking set , the damage comes from the CP which Werewolves greatly benefit from.

Vampire is useful in pvp and pve. Werewolf needs to be useful in both as well.

Crusades wrote: »

brtomkin wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

I would use WW if this wasnt the current state :

* ULT cost is 300 points, its pretty too much in my opinion.
* Regardless the high cost ult, u cant even earn more ult in that state.

thats the only changes WW needs, its damn strong

Ever tried bloodspawn???? LMAO

Does the Blood Spawn proc actually give you ultimate while in werewolf form?!?

I tested bloodspawn and it does NOT work during werewolf form

Yeah, the main draw of BS on WW is the extra defenses that stack with the bonus of the transformation, adding roughly 15k resists, and the hard cap is around 32k, so its a very large chunk of tankiness. Imo what WW should have is 2 configurable bars, the first locked down on the WW transformation (to allow revert) and the second locked on a WW specific ultimate, or just create another keybind to let people turn and revert at will, the ultimate of transformation could turn into another ulti useful in WW form.

dsalter wrote: »

making WW heavy attack apply bleed+restore an actual useful amount of stamina would be a start.... honestly

Always thought that heavies applied the WW normal bleed. Interesting. And whats funny is that theres a passive to increase stam return on heavies and even with 2 points on it, its still the least returning heavy attack.

I wouldn't be so brave as to ask for a rebalance around here, it's not safe. The dev's have that psychotic prison guard mentality where you ask for a sip of water and they waterboard you for twenty hours and then randomly cut off one of you appendages and feed it to you.

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Werewolf is fun, but also stale. There's no diversity with skill choices. You're locked into the same 5 skills. What they should do is allow us to slot certain class skills. For example, a sorc could use Lightning Form, Streak, or even pets. Not skills such as Frags, cause that would be a bit silly, obviously. Most class buffs or movement speed abilities should be fine.

Exactly, also I would let people cast their frags with a generic werewolf casting animation, if they want to use pelinals or something, I dont mind. But yeah, isnt it silly that WW replaces 90% of your characters capabilities?

Well thats will be awesome if werewolf have taunt on one skill, and even more awesome if transformation work like Overload skill, so they can store Ult in beast form.

About vampires I'd like see additional skills thats will be avaible on certain vampire stages only.

Werewolf does not need a taunt.i have enough trouble with dps fearing adds out of aoe. They need a morph that that has a stun instead of a fear.