Vampire and Werewolf need to be rebalanced

max_only

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

ofSunhold

I'd like to see more PC werewolves* around. Maybe the transform should be a regular ability, rather than an ultimate. And it's odd that their passives only apply when transformed. Isn't the point that the wolf is always in there?

But don't mess with vamp. It's such a widespread crutch for good reasons: two classes that have crap mobility, and the magicka regen we all need so much more now. It sucks a lot that it's so necessary - I'd much rather people be able to rely on their class abilities. But it is. Leave it.

It might be nice to have another world skill line like these two added to the game, something with useful stuff that locks out the other two options. I'd love to see something for paladin-types, but just dreaming.


* although I'm less enthusiastic when they're eating my guts, because ew

Malic

Here's the thing, werewolf used to be very powerful with the +15% regen. So zos nerfed because thread after thread after thread was QQ about stam being OP.

They cant balance this, that or the other thing. This game isnt just out of beta, so you have to deduce that either they dont know what they are doing, or they know exactly what they are doing and are keeping all of us on the "next patch changes everything regrind treadmill". A lot of mmo companies do the later.

The problem is, I sincerely believe its the first. After watching some of the live shows, seeing wrobel and the pvp dev (lol) Id rather they didnt balance anything because I have no faith at all in either. That said Im still playing it isnt horrible as is but if I see either of these two clowns names associated with an mmo in future I wont buy it.

Werewolf absolutely should be looked at, the 15% regen should come back WITH the poison vulnerability.

STEVIL

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

Sounds like asking for more the same, which is not a direction i tend to favor in game changes.

Is it your experience that flame damage is not fairly common in this game as well?

And also, if i may ask, because i have not ran my werewolf in a while - does the wolfie poison thing apply even when not in wofl form - its there all the time?

just saying that in my knowledge of vampire lore vs werewolf lore, inside and outside of ESo, it tends to be the case that the wolfies get little or none until they wofl out (fitting their ulti model) but vampires are an all the time sort of thing.

So, maybe the different game models are not silly and so easily thrown away.

max_only

The character I have who is a werewolf is only that because it's the only way for him to cannibalize (he's a Bosmer). I don't use the werewolf in any part of his build because it's useless in group pve (fearing adds out of ground DoT, slow attacks, constant feeding/pausing). Solo, I don't have any problems and it's a lot of fun. This thread was created because too many builds are "requiring" vampirism due to the sustain changes. They are equal skill lines (in cost and implementation), they should be equally useful. I don't want vamps to be nerfed to life (c wut I did there) I just want werewolves to be equally important.

FloppyTouch

I remember when I was a werewolf in pvp on my mdk just for the 15% stam regeneration and not having to use the ult. As soon as they got rid of that I went straight to vamp.

idk

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

First of all the statement that many builds depend on vampirism is completely false. Absolutely false. In very top raiding groups you will not find everyone is a vampire, not even all the magicka dps.

That increased fire damage is pretty serious. Especially in certain content. The new trial and both new dungeons both have fire damage. Vampire 2 is required for any benefit and has the biggest jump in increased flame damage taken. It cannot be taken lightly.

WW only takes added poison damage when in actual form which is why they do not receive benefits when not in form. There is not much poison damage in the game compared to fire damage, iirc.

As for your suggestion to make the vampire line into something that mirrors how WW works, besides that it will not happen due to requiring a complete redesign from the ground up because almost every passive and skill would need to be redesign, an ultimate trashed and new skills designed just because someone does not like how WW performs, no, not going to happen.

Maybe you are just looking at it the wrong way. Change WW into how vampirism works. Make those afflicted more hairy in appearance and maybe longer finger nails/claws. Create an actual ultimate for the line and reduce the skills from 5 to 2. One skill a heal that does some damage and the other skill something that reduces damage taken and some other affects. The increased poison damage taken would be full time and based on level. Feeding off corpses would decrease the level. Add a passive that increases all non mounted movement speed by 10% when it is dark.

Since you desire the vampire to be more like the WW it would be easier to make the WW more like the vampire.

Qbiken

I would like to see werewolfs healing ability scaling out of stamina, but still cost magicka. Might need to change the "Base-value" compared to what it is today to make it balanced but changing which resource the healing scales from would be a nice change.

Werewolf used to be one of those builds that actually needed high HP-regen to stay alive. But due to ppl QQ about "immortal tanks" that stacked HP regen 8and couldn´t kill anything), HP regen got nerfed (and WW got an indirect nerf because of that).

Biggest issue as a Werewolf in mo opinion is to stay alive. You´ll almost always be doing decent amount of damage as a Werewolf, but unless you´re in a group or facing 1-2 bad players you´ll get killed 11/10 times.

DeHei

I totally agree:

Vampires useful for magickabuilds
Werewolfs useful for staminabuilds

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

ZOS lost control of the Vampire thing already during the pre-access days, when some people were camping the spawn places, asking for something that today we could easily call a ransom.

It's not just the skills, abilities, passives and looks.

Some people see WW and Vampirism as a blessing. Most as a disease, an abomination. There is nothing mysterious about all of this. There's nothing really hurrying people to find a cure, as it probably happened to many of us playing Oblivion. It's like going to the grocery shop, buying bread and a bite.

Why are Vampires at the maximum state allowed into cities, anyway? Why aren't they attacked on sight, as they should?

ofSunhold

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Maybe you are just looking at it the wrong way. Change WW into how vampirism works. Make those afflicted more hairy in appearance and maybe longer finger nails/claws...

Maybe just the ears?

amir412

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

I would use WW if this wasnt the current state :

* ULT cost is 300 points, its pretty too much in my opinion.
* Regardless the high cost ult, u cant even earn more ult in that state.

thats the only changes WW needs, its damn strong

AdicusDio

WW should have the regen detached from the ult being on bar, and follow vamp passives being off-bar or out of WW transformation. Pretty lame tbh. They should also introduce Werebears already....

For Vamp, fire is the only real downside, while very low health regen can be countered with healing and at least 19-21k health. In PvE, can throw on Mighty Chudan set (heavy or medium or mix of the 2) and you can run vet dungeons with tons of fire-based aoe (those blue flames can hurt, even in earlier dungeons like Banished Cells vet) and not get 1-shotted while stage 4. Oh yeah, feeding and picking pockets use the same key mapping and roughly same mechanics (sneaking and from behind) so that can be annoying.

But no, vamp doesn't need "balancing" or in zos lingo, "reductions". If anything, it needs to be revamped (pun) so you are forced to feed to stay in top shape (stage 1= better or no health regen deterent, faster sneaking, and add say a DK-like leap replete with wings that allows you to bite a single-target after flight and either fear or set them off-balance while ticking on their health), and lack of feeding makes you like you are now in stage 4= pale, lower health regen, fire hurts more, but maybe give a bump in damage to make it semi-desirable like adding a major Berserk buff; say a hungry vamp will be more dangerous.

Drummerx04

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

PvE: really no builds are dependent on vampire, it's just sort of a min/max convenience thing. 70 extra regen is not going to save you from having 0 resources, and the undeath passive is laughable, and none of the active skills are particularly useful beyond the occasional offtank using them for ult gen (I've also found one fight where mistform is a godsend)

PvP: Vamp dependence is much more of a thing here imo. There are SO MANY SNARES in this game, and there's really just no satisfying way to deal with snares without mistform on a mag build. Stam at least gets shuffle or forward momentum (if they can stomach the loss of rally burst heal) to handle snares a little more passively.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Qbiken wrote: »

I would like to see werewolfs healing ability scaling out of stamina, but still cost magicka. Might need to change the "Base-value" compared to what it is today to make it balanced but changing which resource the healing scales from would be a nice change.

Werewolf used to be one of those builds that actually needed high HP-regen to stay alive. But due to ppl QQ about "immortal tanks" that stacked HP regen 8and couldn´t kill anything), HP regen got nerfed (and WW got an indirect nerf because of that).

Biggest issue as a Werewolf in mo opinion is to stay alive. You´ll almost always be doing decent amount of damage as a Werewolf, but unless you´re in a group or facing 1-2 bad players you´ll get killed 11/10 times.

Nope, l2p issue, my heals crit for 12-13k and i have no problems keeping my magica up. You have to build around your heals beeing magica based but their good armor sets for that. Ive beaten good players in a 1vs1 or 2vs2 with Werwolf in PvP easilyy. Werwolf can be pretty evil if it wants to. but what i do agree to is making the heals USE MAGICA but SCALE OF MAX STAM/WD.

IlCanis_LupuslI

amir412 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

I would use WW if this wasnt the current state :

* ULT cost is 300 points, its pretty too much in my opinion.
* Regardless the high cost ult, u cant even earn more ult in that state.

thats the only changes WW needs, its damn strong

Ever tried bloodspawn???? LMAO

karldavy149b16_ESO

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

pretty sure that they serve a purpose .. i enjoy messing pve dungeons up on my werewolf i also enjoy being flamed when i transform befor a boss fight ... i also enjoy linking my insane dps and hearing nothing from those that flamed me for the rest of the dungeon my point is ... werewolf is insanely powerful ... and i suspect if u call for a rebalance its a learn to play issue

Qbiken

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I would like to see werewolfs healing ability scaling out of stamina, but still cost magicka. Might need to change the "Base-value" compared to what it is today to make it balanced but changing which resource the healing scales from would be a nice change.

Werewolf used to be one of those builds that actually needed high HP-regen to stay alive. But due to ppl QQ about "immortal tanks" that stacked HP regen 8and couldn´t kill anything), HP regen got nerfed (and WW got an indirect nerf because of that).

Biggest issue as a Werewolf in mo opinion is to stay alive. You´ll almost always be doing decent amount of damage as a Werewolf, but unless you´re in a group or facing 1-2 bad players you´ll get killed 11/10 times.

Nope, l2p issue, my heals crit for 12-13k and i have no problems keeping my magica up. You have to build around your heals beeing magica based but their good armor sets for that. Ive beaten good players in a 1vs1 or 2vs2 with Werwolf in PvP easilyy. Werwolf can be pretty evil if it wants to. but what i do agree to is making the heals USE MAGICA but SCALE OF MAX STAM/WD.

Feel free to mail me on the forums on how you do it, because I have no idea how to. Need tips on how to play WW anyway

karldavy149b16_ESO

slot ravager with tong or viper with mephela x2 and yeah your gona melt stuff

Parrot1986

I've only ever went WW for the achievement and went straight back to Vamp. The fact that I get stam and mag recovery without even needing a Vamp skill slotted means I use it on every character. The flame damage and health recovery debuff isn't noticed in most situations either and if I need to remove the effects I just need to take a few swigs of bloody Mara making it really easy to manage it. Also I'm not fussed on the cosmetic look of the character but I get why some wouldn't like it as it's horrific looking.

It'd be good if WW would have similar benefits to make it more attractive to use and the Vamp=Mag and WW=Stam makes sense to me.

Ladislao

I think we should leave it at that.
Why try to make the two mechanics identical? They both have pros and cons. And they are both pretty strong in skillful hands.
Do not change them just to make them more popular

Casul

Why not give the werewolf heal a purge. Then at least that could help counter 1 form of poison attack (poison injection and lethal arrow etc)

Heck even make it a group purge to encourage running in a pack.

Beardimus

I know what you mean a bit, loads of people shifted to Vamp for the magika regen, and the undeath passive for PvP, it does make it a bit stale.

Personally I think they should remove the regen 75% of people would then drop it. Then increase the Vamp abilities a big amount. But maybe flame damage too.

It would be good to hear 'look out Vampire' or as a DPS - there's a vamp, get some fire on him - make it mean something.

Werewolf is cool, and I have a niche build around it - however its not effective enough really. Unless ur Emp

I don't know many that run WW in serious PvE content either.

Jeremy

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

Why is it that the prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf yet the prevalence of fire damage in the game (of which there is plenty) doesn't decrease the effectiveness of being a vampire?

Your argument seems to contradict itself.

starkerealm

max_only wrote: »

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

Probably worth remembering that Werewolves are vulnerable to the poison damage type. Not "poisons," as the alchemy consumable. So bow skills that do poison damage? Yes. Players slotting poisons in their build? Not so much.

max_only

Jeremy wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

Why is it that the prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf yet the prevalence of fire damage in the game (of which there is plenty) doesn't decrease the effectiveness of being a vampire?

Your argument seems to contradict itself.

Can you purge/cleanse in WW form?... like I said, I'm no expert, but can't you cleanse/purge in vamp form? Everyone is running poisons especially resource draining poisons. I guess vamps can fear dk players that aren't running noxious breath?
I had to heal a vamp tank and it was horrible, sure, but not as horrible as people becoming werewolves in vet dungeons, fearing the adds out of the aoe.

I don't pvp so I'm looking for a way for werewolf to be more useful and less of a nuisance in pve.

dsalter

i made a thread sort of the same tracks https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367312/heres-a-vampire-werewolf-and-world-skills-balance-idea-ready#latest

it's in pve vampire is sort of a winner because bats being slotted activate all the passives, and bats being so useful anyways makes it a sure bet vampire will be required for the regen passives+undeath

werewolves on the other hand lose so many passives and abilities simply for activating its unreal.
weapon passives stop working, class ones with requiring slotted skills stop working.

this is part of why werewolf is so bad.
oh and the terrible stamina regen from heavy attacks

brtomkin

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

I would use WW if this wasnt the current state :

* ULT cost is 300 points, its pretty too much in my opinion.
* Regardless the high cost ult, u cant even earn more ult in that state.

thats the only changes WW needs, its damn strong

Ever tried bloodspawn???? LMAO

Does the Blood Spawn proc actually give you ultimate while in werewolf form?!?

dsalter

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

I would use WW if this wasnt the current state :

* ULT cost is 300 points, its pretty too much in my opinion.
* Regardless the high cost ult, u cant even earn more ult in that state.

thats the only changes WW needs, its damn strong

Ever tried bloodspawn???? LMAO

that awful set for tanks?
please i dont use it on my werewolf build and i'm busting up zergs.
not killing them all but splitting them up and picking off snacks.

Defilted

Skyrim had Vampires and a Vampire Lord class which was different and required transformation to get benefits.

I am in no way suggesting the current vampire class be changed in anyway. Adding a 3rd skill line would be interesting.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Drummerx04 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Right now, too many builds depend on vampirism. Flame damage and "ugliness" (subjective) is the only downside to being a vampire. One gets all the benefits without having to slot a single thing.

Werewolf is only beneficial when the ultimate is slotted or when transformed. The prevalence of poisons in the game decrease the effectiveness of being a werewolf.

I'm not an expert, I just feel like there isn't enough incentive to be a werewolf and too many builds use vampirism as a crutch. I don't want blanket nerfs to vampires to make them as useless as werewolves, I want some "equalization"

In my opinion, vampires should get a transformation ult that locks out regular skills but opens some vamp skills (like werewolf do) in addition to what they have. And Werewolf should get an "always on" passive without having to slot the ultimate (like vamp do) in addition to what they have. Make them "equally different". Vamp is useful for every single mag build, let werewolf be actually useful for stam builds.

PvP: Vamp dependence is much more of a thing here imo. There are SO MANY SNARES in this game, and there's really just no satisfying way to deal with snares without mistform on a mag build. Stam at least gets shuffle or forward momentum (if they can stomach the loss of rally burst heal) to handle snares a little more passively.

100% agreed...

As a Magicka Templar, Elusive Mist is absolutely critical (IMHO of course) for me in PvP...

Without it, I have no form of escape; without the ability to escape from enemies, the only other option is to build with extreme tankiness, and that doesn't fit my playstyle...