Is Pelinal Whitestrake a cyborg from the future, yay or nay?

starkerealm · August 2017

Yay

leetacakesb16_ESO wrote: »

I believe he was an Elder Scrolls version of cyborg. I would even consider the Dwemer constructs to be cyborgs, even if they are lowly ones like the Seegson androids in Alien Isolation, as the Dwemer machines are powered by soul gems, if I'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken about the gems.

I'm not sure if that constitutes a cyborg though. Usually, a cyborg is someone with organic and technological components.

Normally, you're talking about a piece of technology being added to a living organism. Note: this can be a temporary addition, so, someone with contact lenses meets the technical definition of a "cyborg."

If you're talking about replacing limbs, or implanting some piece of hardware into someone, that's a cyborg.

But, the only "organic" component of the dwemer constructs is the soul gem. So... I don't know. Maybe? This is a really weird edge case.

The only reason the Terminator is considered a cyborg is because it's actually had a living organism grafted over it. Which, I mean, it probably meets the technical definition as well. It's another weird case, but easier to say, "yeah, Reese was right, and not just babbling nonsense."

The Synthetics from Aliens are another weird edge case. As I recall, androids from that setting are fully synthetic, using polymer skins and circulatory systems, and pumping something that looks like milk through their bodies. Edge case when you consider that those polymers may, technically, be organic compounds. Not living components, but still organic. Then, it might count, I'm unsure. I should probably add, I haven't played Isolation, so I'm talking about the higher end Wayland-Yutani models, not the Seegson ones from the game.

leetacakesb16_ESO · August 2017

Yay

starkerealm wrote: »

leetacakesb16_ESO wrote: »

I believe he was an Elder Scrolls version of cyborg. I would even consider the Dwemer constructs to be cyborgs, even if they are lowly ones like the Seegson androids in Alien Isolation, as the Dwemer machines are powered by soul gems, if I'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken about the gems.

I'm not sure if that constitutes a cyborg though. Usually, a cyborg is someone with organic and technological components.

Normally, you're talking about a piece of technology being added to a living organism. Note: this can be a temporary addition, so, someone with contact lenses meets the technical definition of a "cyborg."

If you're talking about replacing limbs, or implanting some piece of hardware into someone, that's a cyborg.

But, the only "organic" component of the dwemer constructs is the soul gem. So... I don't know. Maybe? This is a really weird edge case.

Ah, I didn't realise there was a difference. Thanks for the insight.

Not to go too offtopic, in Isolation, you had your highly intelligent Weyland Android, and then you had these Seegson droids who were more like your computer. I like to think maybe the Dwemer had some more intelligent constructs along with their normal constructs.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · August 2017

Yay

While the topic of soul gems has been brought up:

beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon

Anyone else reminded of this?

starkerealm · August 2017

Yay

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

While the topic of soul gems has been brought up:

beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon

Anyone else reminded of this?

Yep.

starkerealm · August 2017

Yay

leetacakesb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

leetacakesb16_ESO wrote: »

I believe he was an Elder Scrolls version of cyborg. I would even consider the Dwemer constructs to be cyborgs, even if they are lowly ones like the Seegson androids in Alien Isolation, as the Dwemer machines are powered by soul gems, if I'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken about the gems.

I'm not sure if that constitutes a cyborg though. Usually, a cyborg is someone with organic and technological components.

Normally, you're talking about a piece of technology being added to a living organism. Note: this can be a temporary addition, so, someone with contact lenses meets the technical definition of a "cyborg."

If you're talking about replacing limbs, or implanting some piece of hardware into someone, that's a cyborg.

But, the only "organic" component of the dwemer constructs is the soul gem. So... I don't know. Maybe? This is a really weird edge case.

Ah, I didn't realise there was a difference. Thanks for the insight.

Not to go too offtopic, in Isolation, you had your highly intelligent Weyland Android, and then you had these Seegson droids who were more like your computer. I like to think maybe the Dwemer had some more intelligent constructs along with their normal constructs.

It's actually possible. We've seen some variations in the more advanced, and rarer constructs. To the best of my knowledge, none of the surviving examples truly cross the threshold into self-aware, though.

Berret · August 2017

Yay

I always understood that "robot" meant that he was artificially created by the divines not that he was an actual robot.

Eporem · August 2017

Yay

In the Song of Pelinal, v2: On his Coming

Could Pelinal have been the Anger (of Akatosh?) that came down with Morihaus in the form of a diamond (soul gem? magical stone? that later became the Amulet of Kings?) soaked red with the blood of the elves who facets could un-sector and form into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers.

The Song of Pelinal, v2: On His Coming

[Editor's Note: Volumes 1-6 are taken from the so-called Reman Manuscript located in the Imperial Library. It is a transcription of older fragments collected by an unknown scholar of the early Second Era. Beyond this, little is known of the original sources of these fragments, some of which appear to be from the same period (perhaps even from the same manuscript). But, as no scholarly consensus yet exists on dating these six fragments, no opinions will be offered here.]

[And then] Perrif spoke to the Handmaiden again, eyes to the Heavens which had not known kindness since the beginning of elven rule, and she spoke as a mortal, whose kindle is beloved by the Gods for its strength-in-weakness, a humility that can burn with metaphor and yet break [easily and] always, always doomed to end in death (and this is why those who let their souls burn anyway are beloved of the Dragon and His Kin), and she said: "And this thing I have thought of, I have named it, and I call it freedom. Which I think is just another word for Shezarr Who Goes Missing... [You] made the first rain at his sundering [and that] is what I ask now for our alien masters... [that] we might sunder them fully and repay their cruelty [by] dispersing them to drown in the Topal. Morihaus, your son, mighty and snorting, gore-horned, winged, when next he flies down, let him bring us anger." ... [And then] Kyne granted Perrif another symbol, a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers and a name: PELIN-EL [which is] "The Star-Made Knight" [and he] was arrayed in armor [from the future time]. And he walked into the jungles of Cyrod already killing, Morihaus stamping at his side froth-bloody and bellowing from excitement because the Pelinal was come... [and Pelinal] came to Perrif's camp of rebels holding a sword and mace, both encrusted with the smashed viscera of elven faces, feathers and magic beads, which were the markings of the Ayleidoon, stuck to the redness that hung from his weapons, and he lifted them, saying: "These were their eastern chieftains, no longer full of their talking."

Eporem · August 2017

Yay

leetacakesb16_ESO wrote: »

I believe he was an Elder Scrolls version of cyborg. I would even consider the Dwemer constructs to be cyborgs, even if they are lowly ones like the Seegson androids in Alien Isolation, as the Dwemer machines are powered by soul gems, if I'm not mistaken.

The earlier ones I think were powered by tapping into the Heart of Lorkhan.

Waffennacht · August 2017

I'm pretty sure Whitestrake is a being very similar to Lork -and all man for that matter- created by Sithis to bring an end.

So similar to Sithis' creation of man and to that of Lori, a mixture of both.

A red stone heart like Lork - tying him to the Mundus making Lork indestructible
A body much like man - Superior to Mer for the purpose of destruction.

Just my two cents

PrayingSeraph · August 2017

Nay

Unless its specified in official lore, anything MK makes up is fanfiction at best.

starkerealm · August 2017

Yay

Eporem wrote: »

Could Pelinal have been the Anger (of Akatosh?) that came down with Morihaus in the form of a diamond (soul gem? magical stone? that later became the Amulet of Kings?) soaked red with the blood of the elves who facets could un-sector and form into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers.

It's certainly not one of the weirder theories, and would go a long way towards explaining Pelinal's name.

Eporem · August 2017

Yay

and then there is this:) from here: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

On the nature of Pelinal (09/23/07):

Re: Pelinal, his closest mythical model would be Gilgamesh, with a dash of a T-800 thrown in, and a full-serving of brain-fracture slaughterhouse antinomial (Kill)3 functions stuck in his hand or head. We tend to forgive those heroes.

And thousands of years of Good Coming From Bad, and/or whitewash, ignorance, shame, his Song being read by the Knights merely as fancy rather than right record, etc, might explain the Order's reluctance to villify or apologize for him. Plus, no one wants to gets smothered in their sleep by moths.

That said, I sure would like to read the story of Alkosh whooping Pelinal's ass back to Cyrod when the Whitestrake's pogroms strayed too far into the Dragon-Cat's land.

On Pelinal, again (04/01/08):

Pelinal was and is an insane collective swarmfoam war-fractal from the future, you betcha.

and this from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1pv78e/ask_michael_kirkbride_anything_the_aftermath/

That said, is Pelinal actually a robot/cyborg?

Pelinal: yes, he is. Love that guy.

Why are so many robots traveling back in time (Pelinal, KINMUNE)?

They come back to 'fix' the future. The Jills have to work overtime.

though it seems still a mystery on how he was created.

starkerealm · August 2017

Yay

@Eporem, that's exactly the kind of Kirkbride gibbering that doesn't actually prove anything. He can (and frequently does) say whatever he wants, but if it doesn't make it into the games, it's not canonical.

When you're evaluating the setting's lore, material that actually appears in the games gets highest priority. (The Pocket Guide is the one exception to this rule. It's also canon.) Supporting info like those interviews can be useful for assessing what the intent was, and it can point you towards where you should be looking to support your claims, but it's not evidence in and of itself. Especially with Kirkbride.

The problem with Michael Kirkbride isn't the weirdness, (though that does turn some people off), it's that he has a vision for the franchise that is not shared by the people actually running Bethesda and developing games for them. Put simply, he no longer has a say in how TES shakes out. So, when you're looking at his interviews, it can be useful for interpreting things like the song or the Sermons of Vivec, but when he simply says, "yeah, this is how it is," that's not enough on its own.

Eporem · August 2017

Yay

starkerealm wrote: »

@Eporem,

When you're evaluating the setting's lore, material that actually appears in the games gets highest priority. (The Pocket Guide is the one exception to this rule. It's also canon.) Supporting info like those interviews can be useful for assessing what the intent was, and it can point you towards where you should be looking to support your claims, but it's not evidence in and of itself.

Thank you for this @starkerealm, it is a reminder:)

Eporem · August 2017

Yay

In reading more of Pelinal I came across something called the Mantella and wonder now how much lore of this is known in game and if it could be connected at all to this topic.

starkerealm · August 2017

Yay

Eporem wrote: »

In reading more of Pelinal I came across something called the Mantella and wonder now if much is known of this in the lore. I place it here to see if it might be connected to this topic as well.

I think it's connected to Daggerfall's Numidium ending. It's an item from TES2, as in you actually need to obtain it for one of the endings. Personally, I don't know much, beyond that it's a large green gem created from Zurin Arctus's soul (I think), which is used to power the Numidium.

Woodenplank · September 2017

Yay

I don't always agree with MK - he get's too outlandish and self-important sometimes - but somewhat intelligent and very advanced dwemeri centuri have existed since the first era - so the idea that Pelinal was a cyborg from sometime post 4th era is really not that strange.

Besides; it's alot wierder and funnier than "he was a crazy knight who was very good at fighting"

Veloth_Redothril · May 2021

Tyrobag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Nothing in the song says he is, MK just tries to imply it. Fortunately all of the non-evidencial implications are easily ignored by the fact that it is just overzealous embellishment by the writer. Pelinal Whitestrike was an Ada, not the terminator.

Which, if he still had meat and metal parts would fit the definition of a cyborg.

Now, if Kirkbride is actually saying that Pelinal is an android with a meat flavored shell, then, yeah, that's not supported. If he's saying, "yeah, he was a 'normal' dude who had his heart and hand replaced..." yeah, the song kinda suggests that.

Except that he did not have metal parts, he had heavy armor.

...because of his left hand, made of a killing light.

... beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion...

Now, if you want to get really pedantic and point out, "hey, that's not metal," then congrats, it's not. But, then again, actually being made out of metal isn't a prerequisite for cybernetic modification.

If you need a direct expiation for every little thing that MK lets fall out of his mouth, then fine here are some alternatives to the most likely scenario of embellishment by the author. They have little evidence other than the implications in the song of Pelenal, but that doesn't seem to matter to you:

The Sword of the Crusader is ablaze with holy fire (fire damage/fear undead) when wielding both the Sword and Mace of the Crusader together it would have been in his left hand. There's your "killing light."

We've seen Briarhearts, and we know that one can replace their own heart with a heartstone (and by extension likely a chunk of nirncrux) to extend their life. Much more likely than "Omg he's like totally a cyborg bro!"

"Cyborgs" are not in line with TES lore, if you want sci-fi go play fallout.

You must have hated the Clockwork City dlc.

Sinlar · June 2021

This one believes that taking into consideration, the potential capabilities an Aedric technology may represent is perhaps worthwhile.
We have seen Daedric versions in various flavors on planar levels.
Bringing back a myth-echo of Lorkhaj would be no great feat for awakened Aedra who could perceive existential threats in the directions the Ayleids were heading in.

Smaxx · June 2021

Saw the bumped thread and immediately had it in my head again…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5ix0_W-ouI