Is Pelinal Whitestrake a cyborg from the future, yay or nay?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

For those of you unaware of the Whitestrake and his deeds:

The wiki lore page.
The Oblivion character page.
The Song of Pelinal.

His story is referenced in the Knights of the Nine add-on for Oblivion for those who have not played.

casparian

The Song of Pelinal speaks of him as

a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers and a name: PELIN-EL [which is] "The Star-Made Knight" [and he] was arrayed in armor [from the future time].

And also says

he was Pelinal the Whitestrake because of his left hand, made of a killing light

And then it gives this very strange description:

Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon

Pelinal also has a conversation with Morihaus after his (Pelinal's) head has been cut off.

So Pelinal is really snip-ing weird, that's for certain.

There's a part of me that loves the entire weird MK side of things, from the strange Atmoran lore to Ayrenn-as-a-sentient-mining-vessel-from-the-future. But I also don't find convincing evidence in The Song of Pelinal itself for the cyborg theory (at least if by "cyborg" you mean "a person who partially consists of wires and electronics" -- it does seem clear that he was in some way not biological in the way other people are). If anything, I find its stranger references to his nature -- especially the bit about unfolding from a red diamond, and having a red diamond for a heart -- to be clues that he was Lorkhan, or Lorkhan's avatar in some way.

As to the armor "from the future time" bit, don't forget that Pelinal was around a very, very long time ago. We know from various sources (e.g. Chimarvamidium) that there was a time when plate armor was exceedingly rare and virtually unheard of. The Song of Pelinal may just be trying to say that Pelinal wore plate armor before his allies or opponents had invented it or before it became widespread.

Tyrobag

Nay

MK said it, so you know its not true. End of story.

starkerealm

Yay

casparian wrote: »

As to the armor "from the future time" bit, don't forget that Pelinal was around a very, very long time ago. We know from various sources (e.g. Chimarvamidium) that there was a time when plate armor was exceedingly rare and virtually unheard of. The Song of Pelinal may just be trying to say that Pelinal wore plate armor before his allies or opponents had invented it or before it became widespread.

That's actually a very good point.

Also, stupid question, but aren't the Crusader's Relics from Oblivion supposed to actually be Pelinal's gear? It's been about ten years since I ran the content, so this is an honest question.

There's also a very important detail in the editor's note for Volume 8, which affects any evaluation of the Song.

[Editor's Note: This is the oldest and most fragmentary of all the extant Pelinal texts. It is, however, likely closest to the original spoken or sung form of the Song, and therefore has great value despite its brevity. Strangely, it appears that Pelinal is present at Alessia's deathbed, although he was killed by Umaril earlier in the saga (years before Alessia's death). Some scholars believe that this fragment is not actually a part of the Song of Pelinal, but most accept its authenticity although there is still much debate as to its significance.]

At this point, we know the song has been modified, in parts, significantly, from whatever its original factual basis is.

Another thing I find highly suspect is this line from Vol 3:

...while screaming praise to Reman, a name that no one knew yet.

So, according to the Editors Notes in Vol 3, this was transcribed sometime in the early Second Era. It's entirely possible that if Pelinal was a time traveler, he would have known about Reman, but it seems odd that if he was picking an Emperor from the future, why not Tiber Septum, or some (potentially) more important one even further out.

My gut instinct is that it was an embellishment added during the era of Reman to further legitimize him. Roughly 2500 years after Pelinal lived.

As I said in the other thread, I do like the idea of him as a cyborg time traveler. It's... well, frankly, it's exactly the kind of weirdness you don't usually get out of fantasy, and it makes the character a lot more interesting than just, "oh, hey, here's a really cool dude."

There's also stuff like The Rotwood Enigma, which kinda sells the idea that, yeah, maybe there are time traveling cyborgs wandering Tamriel on occasion. It's not hard proof, but, for as strange a place as Tamriel is, the concept is credible.

So, yeah, I'm inclined to say, "yes, he was, is, and will be." But, if you asked me to say it definitively, using only concrete sources, I can't. The Song just doesn't hold up. It's not credible evidence.

Eporem

Yay

If Cyborg means a Dwemer Construct I would say yes, a possibility that he is.

Rohamad_Ali

Nay

I voted no because , no motorcycle , no shotgun and song was not written by Guns & Roses .

Elsonso

Nay

Eporem wrote: »

If Cyborg means a Dwemer Construct I would say yes, a possibility that he is.

The problem with that is a Dwemer Construct from the future sort of defies the logical timeline, as the Dwemer are long gone in the future. Granted, someone could make something that looks like a Dwemer Construct, but that leads to the second thing that I don't like about the idea... that of a seemingly intelligent cyborg. I really can't see any reason why they would want to do that.

starkerealm

Yay

lordrichter wrote: »

Eporem wrote: »

If Cyborg means a Dwemer Construct I would say yes, a possibility that he is.

The problem with that is a Dwemer Construct from the future sort of defies the logical timeline, as the Dwemer are long gone in the future. Granted, someone could make something that looks like a Dwemer Construct, but that leads to the second thing that I don't like about the idea... that of a seemingly intelligent cyborg. I really can't see any reason why they would want to do that.

Unless the Dwemer traveled into the future. But, even there the logic isn't solid. Why would they send a construct back to fight for the humans. Unless we're saying that Pelinal was contemporary, at which point things make even less sense. The Dwemer were fiercely ethnocentric. Why would they actively support a slave rebellion in Cyrodiil?

FluffyReachWitch

Nay

I'm pretty sure this is one of those cases where the story is merely exaggerated legend, in the same way Ysgramor most likely didn't weep the ebony used to forge Wuuthrad and Vivec most likely did not hatch from a bizarre Chimer/dreugh/robot egg.

AtraisMachina

Nay

No hes a player character. Obviously

Tucker3711

Yay

Why not

Shardan4968

Where is "I'm not 100% sure" option?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Yay

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Where is "I'm not 100% sure" option?

I left it out precisely because if you haven't made up your mind one way or the other, then there isn't much point in voting.

Eporem

Yay

- finds herself reading more of him -

Tyrobag

Nay

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Why not

Because its not true, and you can't just make **** up. No matter how much MK wants to play Molag Bal and **** TES lore, he doesn't get to. None of the incoherent crap he spews out is canon, and it never will be.

/thread

starkerealm

Yay

Tyrobag wrote: »

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Why not

Because its not true, and you can't just make **** up. No matter how much MK wants to play Molag Bal and **** TES lore, he doesn't get to. None of the incoherent crap he spews out is canon, and it never will be.

/thread

Wow, that was weirdly aggressive.

It's probably worth remembering that Kirkbride is the entire reason that Pelinal was dropped into the setting in the first place. So, the more bonkers interpretation is probably intentional, and dates to when Pelinal was added (with Knights of the Nine). So, while you're right, he doesn't get a say in what's canon when he's not working for Bethesda, Pelinal (and The Song) date to when he was working for them and did have the authority to inject pure weirdness right into the heart of Cyrodiil.

Asardes

Yay

"Come wiz me if you wand zu live." [in thick Nord Accent] - Pelinal to st. Alessia

Tyrobag

Nay

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Why not

Because its not true, and you can't just make **** up. No matter how much MK wants to play Molag Bal and **** TES lore, he doesn't get to. None of the incoherent crap he spews out is canon, and it never will be.

/thread

Wow, that was weirdly aggressive.

It's probably worth remembering that Kirkbride is the entire reason that Pelinal was dropped into the setting in the first place. So, the more bonkers interpretation is probably intentional, and dates to when Pelinal was added (with Knights of the Nine). So, while you're right, he doesn't get a say in what's canon when he's not working for Bethesda, Pelinal (and The Song) date to when he was working for them and did have the authority to inject pure weirdness right into the heart of Cyrodiil.

And nothing in the song says that Pelenal Whitestrike is the terminator, so one cannot retroactively say that he is. This is seriously one of the dumbest things that MK fans have ever come up with (and that's saying something).

Its not part of lore. Its not true. End of story.

starkerealm

Yay

Tyrobag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Why not

Because its not true, and you can't just make **** up. No matter how much MK wants to play Molag Bal and **** TES lore, he doesn't get to. None of the incoherent crap he spews out is canon, and it never will be.

/thread

Wow, that was weirdly aggressive.

It's probably worth remembering that Kirkbride is the entire reason that Pelinal was dropped into the setting in the first place. So, the more bonkers interpretation is probably intentional, and dates to when Pelinal was added (with Knights of the Nine). So, while you're right, he doesn't get a say in what's canon when he's not working for Bethesda, Pelinal (and The Song) date to when he was working for them and did have the authority to inject pure weirdness right into the heart of Cyrodiil.

And nothing in the song says that Pelenal Whitestrike is the terminator, so one cannot retroactively say that he is. This is seriously one of the dumbest things that MK fans have ever come up with (and that's saying something).

Its not part of lore. Its not true. End of story.

Ironically, a lot of stuff in the song says he is. You can go look at @WhiteCoatSyndrome's post in Trigger Lore if you honestly think there's no evidence.

Now, if you want to say the song isn't credible evidence, that's a different argument. But, "no, that's stupid," in a setting were we've literally picked up a quest from a talking dog and bought booze from a mudcrab suggests you haven't really been paying attention.

Tyrobag

Nay

Nothing in the song says he is, MK just tries to imply it. Fortunately all of the non-evidencial implications are easily ignored by the fact that it is just overzealous embellishment by the writer. Pelinal Whitestrike was an Ada, not the terminator.

starkerealm

Yay

Tyrobag wrote: »

Nothing in the song says he is, MK just tries to imply it. Fortunately all of the non-evidencial implications are easily ignored by the fact that it is just overzealous embellishment by the writer. Pelinal Whitestrike was an Ada, not the terminator.

Which, if he still had meat and metal parts would fit the definition of a cyborg.

Now, if Kirkbride is actually saying that Pelinal is an android with a meat flavored shell, then, yeah, that's not supported. If he's saying, "yeah, he was a 'normal' dude who had his heart and hand replaced..." yeah, the song kinda suggests that.

Tyrobag

Nay

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Nothing in the song says he is, MK just tries to imply it. Fortunately all of the non-evidencial implications are easily ignored by the fact that it is just overzealous embellishment by the writer. Pelinal Whitestrike was an Ada, not the terminator.

Which, if he still had meat and metal parts would fit the definition of a cyborg.

Now, if Kirkbride is actually saying that Pelinal is an android with a meat flavored shell, then, yeah, that's not supported. If he's saying, "yeah, he was a 'normal' dude who had his heart and hand replaced..." yeah, the song kinda suggests that.

Except that he did not have metal parts, he had heavy armor.

starkerealm

Yay

Tyrobag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Nothing in the song says he is, MK just tries to imply it. Fortunately all of the non-evidencial implications are easily ignored by the fact that it is just overzealous embellishment by the writer. Pelinal Whitestrike was an Ada, not the terminator.

Which, if he still had meat and metal parts would fit the definition of a cyborg.

Now, if Kirkbride is actually saying that Pelinal is an android with a meat flavored shell, then, yeah, that's not supported. If he's saying, "yeah, he was a 'normal' dude who had his heart and hand replaced..." yeah, the song kinda suggests that.

Except that he did not have metal parts, he had heavy armor.

...because of his left hand, made of a killing light.

... beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion...

Now, if you want to get really pedantic and point out, "hey, that's not metal," then congrats, it's not. But, then again, actually being made out of metal isn't a prerequisite for cybernetic modification.

Tyrobag

Nay

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Nothing in the song says he is, MK just tries to imply it. Fortunately all of the non-evidencial implications are easily ignored by the fact that it is just overzealous embellishment by the writer. Pelinal Whitestrike was an Ada, not the terminator.

Which, if he still had meat and metal parts would fit the definition of a cyborg.

Now, if Kirkbride is actually saying that Pelinal is an android with a meat flavored shell, then, yeah, that's not supported. If he's saying, "yeah, he was a 'normal' dude who had his heart and hand replaced..." yeah, the song kinda suggests that.

Except that he did not have metal parts, he had heavy armor.

...because of his left hand, made of a killing light.

... beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion...

Now, if you want to get really pedantic and point out, "hey, that's not metal," then congrats, it's not. But, then again, actually being made out of metal isn't a prerequisite for cybernetic modification.

If you need a direct expiation for every little thing that MK lets fall out of his mouth, then fine here are some alternatives to the most likely scenario of embellishment by the author. They have little evidence other than the implications in the song of Pelenal, but that doesn't seem to matter to you:

The Sword of the Crusader is ablaze with holy fire (fire damage/fear undead) when wielding both the Sword and Mace of the Crusader together it would have been in his left hand. There's your "killing light."

We've seen Briarhearts, and we know that one can replace their own heart with a heartstone (and by extension likely a chunk of nirncrux) to extend their life. Much more likely than "Omg he's like totally a cyborg bro!"

"Cyborgs" are not in line with TES lore, if you want sci-fi go play fallout.

starkerealm

Yay

Tyrobag wrote: »

If you need a direct expiation for every little thing that MK...

No, I'm talking about stuff that's in game.

Tyrobag wrote: »

"Cyborgs" are not in line with TES lore, if you want sci-fi go play fallout.

Kay.

Ankael07

Asardes wrote: »

"Come wiz me if you wand zu live." [in thick Nord Accent] - Pelinal to st. Alessia

'' I'll be bach'' -Pelinal before challenging an Ayleid King

Elsonso

Nay

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

If you need a direct expiation for every little thing that MK...

No, I'm talking about stuff that's in game.

Tyrobag wrote: »

"Cyborgs" are not in line with TES lore, if you want sci-fi go play fallout.

Kay.

That is less a cyborg and more a dwemer wheelchair.

starkerealm

Yay

lordrichter wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

If you need a direct expiation for every little thing that MK...

No, I'm talking about stuff that's in game.

Tyrobag wrote: »

"Cyborgs" are not in line with TES lore, if you want sci-fi go play fallout.

Kay.

That is less a cyborg and more a dwemer wheelchair.

Kay.

Though, seriously, my recollection is that Yagrum's "wheelchair" is actually grafted onto him, over his non-functional legs.

Also, sorry about the crap quality of Sotha Sil there, I couldn't find a better pic on short notice. It's also pretty clear with him, at least some of those modifications were not posthumous.

Korah_Eaglecry

Tyrobag wrote: »

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Why not

Because its not true, and you can't just make **** up. No matter how much MK wants to play Molag Bal and **** TES lore, he doesn't get to. None of the incoherent crap he spews out is canon, and it never will be.

/thread

I remember hearing they actually assigned someone to review all of his material, meant to be placed into the game, to ensure it wasnt too crazy or outside of the wheelhouse that is high-fantasy. The guy has a interesting imagination but it was definitely over the top and at times a bit much for the universe Bethesda was trying to create.

starkerealm

Yay

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Why not

Because its not true, and you can't just make **** up. No matter how much MK wants to play Molag Bal and **** TES lore, he doesn't get to. None of the incoherent crap he spews out is canon, and it never will be.

/thread

I remember hearing they actually assigned someone to review all of his material, meant to be placed into the game, to ensure it wasnt too crazy or outside of the wheelhouse that is high-fantasy. The guy has a interesting imagination but it was definitely over the top and at times a bit much for the universe Bethesda was trying to create.

From what I know, that was true with Morrowind as well. Kirkbride and Ken Rolston... I'd say, "canceled each other out," but that's not quite true.

Rolston's the one responsible for most of the grounded TES elements. Where Kirkbride goes into barely comprehensible gibbering, Rolston's the one who puts together stuff as direct allegory. So, the modern Imperials as the Roman Empire is Rolston. The weird metaphysics are Kirkbride.

Of the two, Rolston gets way less credit than he should. He's responsible for a lot of the concrete world building that keeps TES running. While Kirkbride is responsible for the weirdness. Together the result is incredibly memorable.

From what I remember, Rolston left shortly after Oblivion released, and Kirkbride was brought back in for Oblivion's DLC. Which is probably why Oblivion itself is such a grounded game, while the DLC gets increasingly fanciful.

leetacakesb16_ESO

Yay

I believe he was an Elder Scrolls version of cyborg. I would even consider the Dwemer constructs to be cyborgs, even if they are lowly ones like the Seegson androids in Alien Isolation, as the Dwemer machines are powered by soul gems, if I'm not mistaken.