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Magsorc ridiculously OP
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lately I've been mostly playing Magicka Warden, Magicka Nightblade, and Magicka Sorcerer in Battlegrounds, and I'd say that when it comes to the damage dealer role, the Sorcerer is absolutely the superior class out of the 3 (though being able to Cliff Racer the dodge roll spammers is nice). There is just so much utility and burst available to the class that it's unreal. And if someone thinks that Mag Sorc burst damage is "telegraphed," I'd invite them try out Magicka Warden for a bit. Plus, Sorc burst damage can't get completely shut down by root spamming, as a Mag Warden's can.
That said, Mag Sorcs are hardly the only overpowered thing out there. Leaving aside the absurdity of non-class related stuff (like resource poisons and that stupid Deathmatch sigil), I think Stamplar and Stamblade are every bit as much in need of nerfs as Mag Sorcs are...their burst damage with the right setup is laughably overpowered, and shield stacking is not going to save you in no-CP...at least not for very long.0 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
4 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorcs have too many op abilities. Every class has a few strong abilities but not nearly as many as sorcs do.
Overload allowing a 3rd skill bar
Dark exchange that instantly gives health and magicka for the cost of stamina
A class shield that scales off magicka and last longer than any other shield
Frags being able to be insta casted plus it does extra crit damage
Curse that explodes twice
Streak is best skill for mobility plus it stuns and pulls players out of stealth.
0 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Cmon dont be a clown. Pick up 4 extra slots with any non weapon ulti on overload bar.1 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Cmon dont be a clown. Pick up 4 extra slots with any non weapon ulti on overload bar.
You can't slot a 2rd ultimate on your overload bar.0 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Cmon dont be a clown. Pick up 4 extra slots with any non weapon ulti on overload bar.
You can't slot a 2rd ultimate on your overload bar.
Yep, what patch they fix that? Just checked it now.0 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even when you could it meant you couldn't toggle the bar off, so had to dump the lot. As lexxy said if you want that 3rd bar you basically are losing an Ultimate, pros and cons.Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭Even when you could it meant you couldn't toggle the bar off, so had to dump the lot. As lexxy said if you want that 3rd bar you basically are losing an Ultimate, pros and cons.
No, you could still pick up 4 slots and the 5th a weapon ability that when hit would toggle you back out of overload.0 -
Oxalias✭✭✭Jesus, just learn how to play, from the sound of things, it looks like OP is a sneaking stam blade, and can't handle when a msorc zeros down on him, every class has additional strength against another class if played right, it's just how it goes. In non-cp playing msorc is not an easy task in the sense I struggle between getting enough regen to keep my shields up and not get minced, or having a lot of magic to have stronger shields.1 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭But it has been fixed now, so it is finally official. Sorcs are no longer OP.
Balance has been achieved...2 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cut sorcerer damage in half in PvP. lets start there.
how often do you see a dead sorcerer on the battle field, or Anywhere!?Edited by Gilvoth on August 20, 2017 9:57PM0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭as a sorc, why are the shields such an issue?
the thing that really makes us stronk that everyone overlooks is the curse, mage fury, streak, fragproc combo.
not only is it effective, but semi spammable and fairly simple to setup if you have awarenessPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That cat analogy though... we all need to set aside our differences a moment and applaud the OP for making the argument so clear and relatable.
Sorcs are strong because they survive on a mechanic which still to this forking day has NO explicit counter - the monstrosity that is WARDS.
Healing has a counter. Blocking has counters. Dodging has a LOT of counters.
Shields tho? Nah. Not only does @Wrobel think shields don't need counters, for some unintelligible reason he also thinks they should make the user immune to crits and status effect procs and be stackable.
Smh2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Hey that´s a legit question.
You can just put it on that third bar.
But since activating (and leaving) overload "consumes" a global cooldown for skilluse it´s not really useful having an emergency heal on there (resto ult) nor a burst ultimate that should be incorporated into a combo with other skills.
Good thinking in theory but practically useless as the ultimates loose their value.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Cmon dont be a clown. Pick up 4 extra slots with any non weapon ulti on overload bar.
You can't slot a 2rd ultimate on your overload bar.
Yep, what patch they fix that? Just checked it now.
Ah, so we are counting exploiting as OP now?
1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That cat analogy though... we all need to set aside our differences a moment and applaud the OP for making the argument so clear and relatable.
Sorcs are strong because they survive on a mechanic which still to this forking day has NO explicit counter - the monstrosity that is WARDS.
Healing has a counter. Blocking has counters. Dodging has a LOT of counters.
Shields tho? Nah. Not only does @Wrobel think shields don't need counters, for some unintelligible reason he also thinks they should make the user immune to crits and status effect procs and be stackable.
Smh
Well there is still Oblivion/disease enchants and shattering blows. 23 points gives you 10% extra DMG on shields, and it doesn't take away from the other CP stars. Minor vulnerability poisons which give you 8% extra DMG too, tag em before any delayed DMG kicks off. Extra 18% DMG basically counters their 20% bastion dump, if they were stupid to put their eggs in that basket.
And count to 4 seconds then CC right before all the burst hits. Watch them scramble like little ants. You don't even need to kill the Sorc to belittle them on the battlefield.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times
Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.
I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother
You are right I try to be to noble i didn't want to use cost increase poisons because i feel it's too much of advantage over pretty much everyone you fight. I was trying to avoid using something that's broken to combat another broken mechanic, but the rise in sorc popularity and the xbox zergs are sending me to the dark side lol
What you call nobility another calls being a scrub. I know you're good and don't think you're a scrub, but I can't imagine being willing to gimp yourself so hard as a solo player. The deck is already stacked against you, run a meta-like setup and watch the bodies pile up.
Those xbox zergs are so real that I put cloak back on my bars.
@OdinForge you need resource poisons to counter any class or build going full turtle. There are too many cheap defensive ultis that allow you to reset fights, you only need about 40 seconds of sustain at most between defensive ultis, if you have that you can tank forever against unorganized opponents, even in light armor
Not that I necessarily disagree with you when it comes to good tank builds, or pet sorc type builds. Those builds however tend to be minimal threat, and while they're tanky they aren't really beating up 6 people and often crumble under a potl/purifying.
As opposed to the types of sorcs complained about in threads like this, those builds are quite different. A sorc that's actually a threat to you, even if chaining resto ults on cool-down you shouldn't need poisons on.
You need poisons or to drastically outplay to kill anyone chaining resto ults(or trees or shield wall), sorc or not. Wether you should isn't a sorc specific issue.
The reality is, in the current low TTK meta you are likely to be severely punished if you aren't running a defensive set.leepalmer95 wrote: »[Snip]
them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.
[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]
20k Frag tool tip and 50k mag, is balanced. dunno what u talk about kappa
Aaand another uninformed post.
Alright.. 50k mag.. What, exactly in the sorc toolkit gives you 50k mag? Last I heard it was gear and passives that gave stats.. and guess what? sorc doesn't have any max mag passives (unlike some classes).
NOBODY gets a 20k frag tooltip. Mine sits between 12 and 14k depending on build - and I ususally use around 50k max mag.
I'm not disputing sorcs are strong - but the amount of sheer BS coming from these nerf threads is unreal.
I dont expect casuals to reach that kind of stats... try harder and u'll see its possible.
I'll tell u even more, ive reached 53k mag and 23k EMPOWERD frag tool tip. and i didnt even invested much like i do on my main building this. (didnt even needed to slot a pet btw)
'Casuals'
By casuals you mean investing everything into dmg throwing on 5 mage guild skills, drinking a pot, continuous, procing the frag then empowering it and taking a s/s xD
I too can fake over inflate my tooltips. But whats the point with no skills, pets and no sustain.
That is casual. You should proc alchemist then take change gear back to your other setup as well. Bonus points for SPC
Edited by Lexxypwns on August 21, 2017 4:01PM0 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Cmon dont be a clown. Pick up 4 extra slots with any non weapon ulti on overload bar.
You can't slot a 2rd ultimate on your overload bar.
Yep, what patch they fix that? Just checked it now.
Ah, so we are counting exploiting as OP now?
You need to work on your degrees of separation.
I have no idea how your mind connected those.
Are you trying to say dragging an ability onto your bar is exploiting now?0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.
The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.
The other issues are:
Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.
The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).
Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.
Why wouldn't you just put it on that third bar...
Because then you need an extra GCD to activate resto ult, as @derra said. Disregarding the fact that it's an exploit, having to wait an extra GCD to pop your emergency ult is no bueno, not even for 4 skill slots.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »cut sorcerer damage in half in PvP. lets start there.
how often do you see a dead sorcerer on the battle field, or Anywhere!?
I see many because i kill them, it's not hard.
Also maybe you don't see many because mag sorc isn't as OP as people think it is and theres isn't as many as people think it is?
Theres so many more magplars about.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorcs have too many op abilities. Every class has a few strong abilities but not nearly as many as sorcs do.
Overload allowing a 3rd skill bar
Dark exchange that instantly gives health and magicka for the cost of stamina
A class shield that scales off magicka and last longer than any other shield
Frags being able to be insta casted plus it does extra crit damage
Curse that explodes twice
Streak is best skill for mobility plus it stuns and pulls players out of stealth.
Give up resto ult for overload? Why is that op?
Can be interrupted but is quite strong yes, resources maybe need toning down by like 1k.
A magicka shield that scales of magicka like most magicka shields, it doesn't have a longer duration.
A procable skill that makes a sorc's hands glow bright purple just to let you know its gonna come, they its travel time is slow, it can be dodged and it can be reflected. It doesn't do extra crit dmg.
Yes curse explodes twice, not sure why this change was made in the end, but good mag sorc's will recast curse every 3.5s anyway.
Streaks ok for mobility, cost increase killed off its super mobility. Yes it stuns for like 1s and its an aoe so yeah it pulls players out of stealth. Its not great for pulling them because they can go straight back into stealth and your next streak will cost 50% more.
So overall what i'm getting is your don't like mag sorcs, likely don't have one of haven't played it to a high level and actually don't know half of its skills and you seem to make effects up.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...7 -
davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭@leepalmer95
I have vets of every class too, stam and magic. When I wrote this post, my definition of OP is not "invincible" or "invulnerable," but rather that they are slightly more powerful than other classes.
Overload isn't the most amazing skill in the world that will make a poor player invincible...but it does give sorcs an avenue to slotting longer term buffs or skills in a manner than no other class has. So there's a tiny power boost there if used well.
Dark exchange offers mag sorcs their most valuable resources at the cost of a moderately useless one, and at a very good ratio. It creates a resource surplus, generating more than is lost. Again, this doesn't make them invincible, but because their dps output and shields are entirely generated by magicka, the ability to heal and sustain for longer than other classes makes them a little more powerful.
I can go on. The bottom line is that sorcs can be configured to have ridiculously high magic and not pay a price for it, because that magic fuels massive dps, endless heals, and endless shields. Then the developers have thrown multiple skills, gear and CPs that return magic, allowing the cycle to perpetuate for longer.
Their toolbox therefore offers them a meta that is 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Of course they'll still sometimes die. Of course they're screwed if caught without the shields up. Of course some players won't fare well in this setup...but that doesn't mean it isn't OP. They just are, because their max potential is mathematically higher than any other class.3 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorcs have too many op abilities. Every class has a few strong abilities but not nearly as many as sorcs do.
Overload allowing a 3rd skill bar
Dark exchange that instantly gives health and magicka for the cost of stamina
A class shield that scales off magicka and last longer than any other shield
Frags being able to be insta casted plus it does extra crit damage
Curse that explodes twice
Streak is best skill for mobility plus it stuns and pulls players out of stealth.
I'd be a bit weary of using dark exchange in front of anyone who knows that it cost stam and can be interrupted. Stam on a magicka character can reall be depleted to a stun lock death although playing at range, it's not likely to be an issue.
The class shield is no longer as long as it was. It used to be. Now it's the same annoying recast all the time as all the others. Stacking is probably what needs addressed or at least the mechanics of shields in general. Should have a long time ago when they nerfed every shield to hit sorcs and affected the others more.
Frags was just nerfed. Seems fine where it is. It's unreliable not just for being so defendable but also it sometimes just does not proc when you really want it.
Streak is nice but I'm not sure it's the best for mobility. When I ran my NB as magicka, using shades and having the ability to boost speed while in stealth on top of any major expedition source seemed better. I do wish my Templar had something though, and I'm sure DKs do as well, but that's not a sorc problem. I do know that on any other class, I'd gladly eat a 1 second stun over fear.
I think there really is a problem with how they have nerfed other classes half assed that's left them less and less versatile
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Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭That cat analogy though... we all need to set aside our differences a moment and applaud the OP for making the argument so clear and relatable.
Sorcs are strong because they survive on a mechanic which still to this forking day has NO explicit counter - the monstrosity that is WARDS.
Healing has a counter. Blocking has counters. Dodging has a LOT of counters.
Shields tho? Nah. Not only does @Wrobel think shields don't need counters, for some unintelligible reason he also thinks they should make the user immune to crits and status effect procs and be stackable.
Smh
If anything, damage shields not having hard counters (aside from that stupid Shieldbreaker set) is a GOOD thing. This game isn't rock paper scissors and that's good.
What is a problem is ZOS adding hard counters to other defenses. Abilities that go straight through roll dodge, block and reflect. It's mind bogglingly stupid.
If every spec could use every defense equally it wouldnt be so bad, but as it stands roll dodge is medium armour's primary defense and block (and stronger healing) is heavy armour's primary defense while damage shields are definitely light armour's primary defense while all 3 build types generally rely heavily on healing too unless it's an unique spec like a magicka sorcerer.
So one defense having hard counters means youre basically out of luck if your spec relies on said defense. You cant just slot a damage shield or build for block on a medium armour in case someone uses an ability that goes straight through roll dodge - the game doesnt work that way (even more so after morrowind - have fun blocking Soul Assault on a medium armour spec). All you can do is pray your own heals (or incoming heals if there's a friendly healbot) outheal the incoming damage.Edited by Valencer on August 22, 2017 12:19PM0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Their toolbox therefore offers them a meta that is 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Of course they'll still sometimes die. Of course they're screwed if caught without the shields up. Of course some players won't fare well in this setup...but that doesn't mean it isn't OP. They just are, because their max potential is mathematically higher than any other class.
Damn, that was some impressive math right there. Your calculus is impeccable and totally not just gut feelings.5 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@leepalmer95
I have vets of every class too, stam and magic. When I wrote this post, my definition of OP is not "invincible" or "invulnerable," but rather that they are slightly more powerful than other classes.
Overload isn't the most amazing skill in the world that will make a poor player invincible...but it does give sorcs an avenue to slotting longer term buffs or skills in a manner than no other class has. So there's a tiny power boost there if used well.
Dark exchange offers mag sorcs their most valuable resources at the cost of a moderately useless one, and at a very good ratio. It creates a resource surplus, generating more than is lost. Again, this doesn't make them invincible, but because their dps output and shields are entirely generated by magicka, the ability to heal and sustain for longer than other classes makes them a little more powerful.
I can go on. The bottom line is that sorcs can be configured to have ridiculously high magic and not pay a price for it, because that magic fuels massive dps, endless heals, and endless shields. Then the developers have thrown multiple skills, gear and CPs that return magic, allowing the cycle to perpetuate for longer.
Their toolbox therefore offers them a meta that is 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Of course they'll still sometimes die. Of course they're screwed if caught without the shields up. Of course some players won't fare well in this setup...but that doesn't mean it isn't OP. They just are, because their max potential is mathematically higher than any other class.
Please do. I am sure many people who are actually interested in a discussion would just love to know the methodology how you arrived to the conclusion that sorcs are 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Because all that's here is gut-feeling and most of it specious.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
DeHei✭✭✭✭✭The OP is right, what he says. But duelling with this very strong makes let me and others getting more skill and become better player.
Its ironic, but i can beat some good sorcs allready. I dont would say change them, because they work fine. A change would just destroy the class.
On the other hand why not buffing some skills from other classes to simliar skills like sorcs have? This would bring more fun to other classes too and nobody would scream!
Templar need more CC (like the old stuneffect from blazing spear!)
Nightblades need some areadamageablitiys and dots
Dragonknights need a spammable Staminaskill for damage, a gapcloser and/or a finisher
Warden really need more damageskills or better working ones for diversity
Sorcs dont need anything because they allready have access to all
Just look here in forum to some ideas, there are great ones to make it happen
DeHei - EP Magicka Templar AllrounderDe Hei(Youtube)4 -
davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭@CyrusArya @Joy_Division
The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.
A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.
For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.
If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.
These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:
1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.
(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).
2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.
I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.
We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.1