Idea for perma-block stacking penalty in PvP

Jules · August 2017

Honghua wrote: »

The meta is the problem not the shields or blocking itself.
It is highly recomended in any DPS build to stack up as much crits and penetration as possible, which does jack [snip] in pvp against anyone that uses shield or is a tank with shield.
A giant part of the community sacrifices weapon/spell damage and magicka/stamina to afford 70% crit chance or so, trying to use debuffing abilities and using penetration instead of just doing raw damage, while the tank has mitigation equipped. And then we are seeing jerks walking around with 2k spell or weapon damage with no resources, unable to take down magicka shield.
Just because you see those high numbers on a training dummy doesnt mean it will work at pvp.

What universe are you living in? "a giant part of the community" has 70% crit in PVP? No.

[Edited for quote]

amonengelb16_ESO · August 2017

Good enough we have no problems like these on NO CP campaigns, lol. Give him a CC overload and he will melt. Or even better: Use tactics and kill more important roles in PvP while you can ignore the tank.

SirMewser · August 2017

ZoS should have no sympathy for the fools that go around chasing one guy who can't do damage for half an hour, meanwhile the keep gets flipped or whatever the situation being is, those builds are intended to stall bad players who make poor choices.

Having tactics like this makes the game more fun and diverse mechanically, it has no effect on players that know how to play nor the organized groups.

You got fooled, get over it and learn.
Gameplay doesn't need to be homogenized further.

Samadhi · August 2017

Alpha83 wrote: »

It's really not reasonable that any tank build can sustain block defense against 5-10 players almost indefinitely. Special builds shouldn't be required to counter this. But right now that's exactly what happens with 660cp tanks on Vivec (PC cp campaign). It wouldn't be so bad if tanks couldn't do any damage, but they can do crazy damage with ultimates like ferocious leap. Adding an ultimate like bat swarm also gives them decent damage and crazy sustain.
...

Alpha83 wrote: »

...
TL;DR: Perma-blocking in PvP should create 'block stack' penalties, which increase the stamina requirement per block for a sustained block. This block penalty should continually increase until the player does not block for a full 5 seconds, resetting the stack. Such a change would have no effect on PvE, which is important.

"Tanks survive too well; this would be fine if they didn't do so much damage as well"
"Solve my complaint by making tanks less able to survive"

Has ZOS reverted the change where they stopped Stamina from regening while blocking?

Alpha83 · August 2017

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Hurika wrote: »

Why not....

Block is 360 degrees in pve (no change from now)
Block is 180 degrees in pvp - adds a skill requirement of positioning and keeping your enemies in front of you instead of "glue down the block key". Against 1-2 it won't have any impact. Against 5-6 blocking becomes a challenge and takes more skill.

Thank you for posting an idea for perma-block that doesn't screw PvE tanks.

And I do like this idea, but I doubt it would get implemented.

If you read my original idea, it doesn't hurt tanks either. My suggestion is to have a stacking debuff for sequential blocks in PvP only, not touching PvP.

But I agree with the 180 degree block for PvP only, as well. You shouldn't be able to block behind you.

Alpha83 · August 2017

Samadhi wrote: »

"Tanks survive too well; this would be fine if they didn't do so much damage as well"
"Solve my complaint by making tanks less able to survive"

Has ZOS reverted the change where they stopped Stamina from regening while blocking?

No -- but you can basically use abilities while blocking thanks to animation canceling. And the morrowind patch helped buff some aspects of stam regen from other abilities.

Another option instead of nerfing tanks is to stop ultimate scaling with health. Ultimate damage shouldn't scale with 'max stats'; they should scale with the highest stat of either magicka or stamina. Health stacking allows these tanks to be nearly unkillable and dish out 15k ferocious leap ultimates. It's absurd.

Feanor · August 2017

Perma blocking is fine if you really eliminate damage from those tanks. The Wrath passive is still in the game though along with sets like Fury because someone at ZOS really likes "berserker style" tanks that get more powerful the longer they stay in battle. I disagree. Either you are tanky or you deal significant damage. Not both.

idk · August 2017

RANKK7 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

They will not create something for PvP that doesn't also happen in PvE, they don't want to have separate mechanics. The devs have stated this many many times, adding something to Battlespirit is the last thing they will do.

This is disheartening to say the least, thx for the info.

Not really and especially when adding the context that you edited out.

Thogard · August 2017

The block cost patch with morrowind was a complete flop. Instead of increasing the cost of block for permablockers, they increased the cost for everyone else while leaving permablockers alone.

If they want to fix block, they need to do two things:
1. Significantly reduce the base cost of block
2. When calculating the cost of block, the block cost reduction jewelry has to be subtracted from the cost before the sturdy bonus or class passives are multiplied. This will nerf the permablockers.

IcyDeadPeople · August 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Perma blocking is fine if you really eliminate damage from those tanks. The Wrath passive is still in the game though along with sets like Fury because someone at ZOS really likes "berserker style" tanks that get more powerful the longer they stay in battle. I disagree. Either you are tanky or you deal significant damage. Not both.

I understand where you're coming from, but if you want to see a real tradeoff across the board in terms of speccing into damage or tankiness, then you also need to look at large shields available to light armor users with high max magicka (bastion, base shield size of dampen magic and hardened ward) and light armor users who can block a long time (shadow ward).

If dampen magic and hardened ward shield size scaled on health, you might see similar extreme tank magicka builds with very large shields and high health who hit like a wet noodle.

Feanor · August 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Perma blocking is fine if you really eliminate damage from those tanks. The Wrath passive is still in the game though along with sets like Fury because someone at ZOS really likes "berserker style" tanks that get more powerful the longer they stay in battle. I disagree. Either you are tanky or you deal significant damage. Not both.

I understand where you're coming from, but if you want to see a real tradeoff across the board in terms of speccing into damage or tankiness, then you also need to look at large shields available to light armor users with high max magicka (bastion, base shield size of dampen magic and hardened ward) and light armor users who can block a long time (shadow ward).

If dampen magic and hardened ward shield size scaled on health, you might see similar extreme tank magicka builds with very large shields and high health who hit like a wet noodle.

The difference is that light armour users are dead if you get the shield to drop with some high burst and a CC. A HA user still has all that mitigation to overcome, so getting him to drop block by means of CC doesn't make him equally vulnerable.

Alpha83 · August 2017

Feanor wrote: »

The difference is that light armour users are dead if you get the shield to drop with some high burst and a CC. A HA user still has all that mitigation to overcome, so getting him to drop block by means of CC doesn't make him equally vulnerable.

Exactly. When a magicka character drops their shield they're extremely vulnerable. When a permablock tank drops block, they have 30k+ health and heavy armor you still have to get through. And with all these talents and ultimates scaling with max health, they still do ridiculous damage for how tanky they are.

There should be more of a tradeoff for permablockers than there currently is.

mb10 · August 2017

The tanks dont like mass hysteria

IcyDeadPeople · August 2017

Alpha83 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The difference is that light armour users are dead if you get the shield to drop with some high burst and a CC. A HA user still has all that mitigation to overcome, so getting him to drop block by means of CC doesn't make him equally vulnerable.

Exactly. When a magicka character drops their shield they're extremely vulnerable. When a permablock tank drops block, they have 30k+ health and heavy armor you still have to get through. And with all these talents and ultimates scaling with max health, they still do ridiculous damage for how tanky they are.

There should be more of a tradeoff for permablockers than there currently is.

The permablock extreme tank builds already sacrifice damage to be able to tank this way in PVP. The Hattori Hanzos and EscorpioaNoturnos etc are not killing anybody with their ultimates except under rare situations. They are specifically building for this kind of tank role, and they don't do much damage.

If you want to see more of a tradeoff for damage vs tankiness, then look instead at the heavy armor offensive builds (not tanks), light armor users with large shields scaling on their offensive stat (max magicka pool) and light armor users with lots of block cost reduction.

To my knowledge, no one is complaining about medium armor users being currently too tanky in pvp. Landing attacks in between constant roll dodge is not easy. Lots of skills that go through dodge, high cost for each subsequent roll, and when you catch someone with this kind of offensive build they melt. They are much more squishy than light armor user with 45-50k max magicka and massive shields.

Already some lengthy discussion about this ongoing in a different thread, but I understand the desire many have to see more of a spectrum where you have extremely high burst damage builds that are quite squishy on one end, tanky builds that do very little damage at the other end and a range of options in between.

To achieve this would require both medium and light damage potential raised a bit more (add phys pen to medium, and spell damage to light passive) so that choosing heavy armor becomes a deliberate choice for high resistances and sustain but lower damage tier compared to medium/light.

Also require equipping 5 piece to use active armor ability and make all the armor passives including Constitution scale stronger with 7 pieces. It becomes a more interesting choice if you want to go full glass cannon light, glass cannon medium or extreme sustain tank, instead of 5/2 or 5/1/1.

Unfortunately this would favor light armor users with large shields (or those specced into blocking) over the other two armor types. To address this would need slight reduction in base size of dampen magic, hardened ward, possibly bastion as well (and shadow ward CP passive).

Ideally the end result would be 7/7 light and medium both extremely high damage and somewhat squishy, 7/7 heavy extremely tanky but damage on a lower tier without the penetration/weapon/spell damage passives.

gard · August 2017

If the servers weren't so damn laggy a decent player would be able to avoid leap or bats. Tank damage nullified.

gard · August 2017

Lord wrote: »

I think your idea may be overkill to tanks.

I have a simple solution that might work but won't destroy tank/s builds entirely.
Shadow Ward champion star: Reduces the cost of Block by [x]%.
I believe it will be enough to nerf the bonus of Shadow ward champion passive by 30-40%, then the block cost will be much higher.

I bet you're mean to kittens and puppies aren't you.

maryriv · August 2017

Alpha83 wrote: »

It's really not reasonable that any tank build can sustain block defense against 5-10 players almost indefinitely. Special builds shouldn't be required to counter this. But right now that's exactly what happens with 660cp tanks on Vivec (PC cp campaign). It wouldn't be so bad if tanks couldn't do any damage, but they can do crazy damage with ultimates like ferocious leap. Adding an ultimate like bat swarm also gives them decent damage and crazy sustain.

One obvious problem is that blocking works in a 360 degree circle... Blocks shouldn't count when hit from behind. However, we can't really fix that because this would nerf PvE tanks. Being both a PvE and a PvP player, I'm really tired of Zenimax nerfing things for PvP which affect PvE. It's time to start separating the two streams.

I would suggest that blocking in PvP incur increasing penalties for sustained blocking. In this sense, each blocked attack would add a 'block penalty stack'. The higher the stack number, the greater the stamina cost per block. The stamina penalty should be small for low stacks, but start to rise exponentially. This penalty would keep stacking until you lower your block for a full 5 seconds (no blocking at all). This kind of a change would require more strategic blocking in PvP, with players finding windows to lower their guard and reset stacks. Obviously this idea would require a lot more thought to be implemented fairly, but something should be done about perma-blocking in PvP.

TL;DR: Perma-blocking in PvP should create 'block stack' penalties, which increase the stamina requirement per block for a sustained block. This block penalty should continually increase until the player does not block for a full 5 seconds, resetting the stack. Such a change would have no effect on PvE, which is important.

Simply putting breach, major and minor defile on any tank build can kill them easily. If you have a hard time with survivability then put all your points into magicka and stack shield bubbles, they can not be crit and makes any magick user very very hard to kill, plus you don't even have to hold block and try to use abilities through it.

Also keep in mind that shields can't be critted so you dont have to use any impenetrable armor, this frees you up to do much more damage and have better defense than any tank.

Sleep · August 2017

Alpha83 wrote: »

Being both a PvE and a PvP player, I'm really tired of Zenimax nerfing things for PvP which affect PvE.

so am i

DeHei · August 2017

Permablocker dont deal much damage, so they can take much pressure over dots. This is the only working counter for that playstyle.

FloppyTouch · August 2017

Honghua wrote: »

The meta is the problem not the shields or blocking itself.
It is highly recomended in any DPS build to stack up as much crits and penetration as possible nowadays, which does jack [snip] in pvp against anyone that uses shield or is a tank with shield.
A giant part of the community sacrifices weapon/spell damage and magicka/stamina to afford 70% crit chance or so, trying to use debuffing abilities and using penetration instead of just doing raw and smart damage, while the tank has mitigation equipped. And then we are seeing jerks walking around with 2k spell or weapon damage with no resources, unable to take down 10k magicka shield or a tank with 13k stamina, give me a break really.
Just because you see those high numbers on a training dummy doesnt mean it will work at pvp against stationary blocking tank.
But hey, i do 40k dps on a training dummy, any tank in pvp should melt in 2 seconds right? WRONG.

I have to disagree a pve dps build with ground base AoEs are the best way to kill a tank. It's pvp build they are strong against bc they are built to take burst damage. While pve build have sustained large amounts of damage that eat away at a tanks stam very fast. Fight any pvp block build solo with a pve build best way to kill them.

[Edited for quote]

DeHei · August 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Honghua wrote: »

The meta is the problem not the shields or blocking itself.
It is highly recomended in any DPS build to stack up as much crits and penetration as possible nowadays, which does jack sht in pvp against anyone that uses shield or is a tank with shield.
A giant part of the community sacrifices weapon/spell damage and magicka/stamina to afford 70% crit chance or so, trying to use debuffing abilities and using penetration instead of just doing raw and smart damage, while the tank has mitigation equipped. And then we are seeing jerks walking around with 2k spell or weapon damage with no resources, unable to take down 10k magicka shield or a tank with 13k stamina, give me a break really.
Just because you see those high numbers on a training dummy doesnt mean it will work at pvp against stationary blocking tank.
But hey, i do 40k dps on a training dummy, any tank in pvp should melt in 2 seconds right? WRONG.

I have to disagree a pve dps build with ground base AoEs are the best way to kill a tank. It's pvp build they are strong against bc they are built to take burst damage. While pve build have sustained large amounts of damage that eat away at a tanks stam very fast. Fight any pvp block build solo with a pve build best way to kill them.

A PvP offensiv dot/aoe damagebuild with much selfheal will allways superior to permablockbuilds. BUT you need enough sustain, because the sustain over heavy attacks doesnt bring magicka back!

GoodFella146 · August 2017

Wow, this is a really great idea. This is something I'd very much like to see. A tank should be able to last a while sure, but they should be able to eventually get broken down even 1v1 if they are just sitting there trolling (oh I mean tanking). Since you don't want to have constant armor repair bills or something silly, this is a great idea. Remember in the old games you were able to use destruction magic to break enemies armor down.

To the idiots telling people to learn to play, you're just dodging something that is an obvious issue. Sure you can avoid these trolls, but how is it not ridiculous that these guys are completely unkillable with so many players after them? The problem I fear is only going to get worse because ZOS keeps nerfing damage across the board, but we'll see I guess.

Now if we could only implement a system that allows Emperorship to get passed to the next player if the first player already had it in the said campaign......

RANKK7 · August 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

RANKK7 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

They will not create something for PvP that doesn't also happen in PvE, they don't want to have separate mechanics. The devs have stated this many many times, adding something to Battlespirit is the last thing they will do.

This is disheartening to say the least, thx for the info.

Not really and especially when adding the context that you edited out.

What the heck are you talking about? I quoted the info and thanked for that since and I didn't know ZOS already stated many times they won't develop pvp and pve separately.

If for you is fine this kind of decision, that's your business, I do not agree.

Savos_Saren · August 2017

Alpha83 wrote: »

Merkabeh wrote: »

Sure. As soon as a similar concept exists for shields and dodge rolls.

I honestly don't have a problem with that. Personally, I'd rather see shields be critable and then just buff shield slightly. This way shield users would have to run impen in PvP like everyone else. But I have no problem if Zenimax instituted a stacking penalty for shields and dodge rolling in the same manner.

But something has to be done, because this tanky meta is getting silly. It's almost impossible to kill someone 1v1, or even 2v1 now if your opponent is decent.

Why would you 1v1 a tank and then complain that they're hard to kill?

Xvorg · August 2017

Why do people that can't beat certain playing style come to the forums to ask for nerfs?

Can you kill permablockers? Yes, drain all their stam. Not all builds can do that. Also carry som Oblivion dmg glyphs
Can you kill shield stackers? Yes, just make sure to put enough dots/wear shieldbreaker
Can you kill perma rollers? Yes, just make sure use unavoidable skills

l2p issue.

maryriv · August 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Honghua wrote: »

The meta is the problem not the shields or blocking itself.
It is highly recomended in any DPS build to stack up as much crits and penetration as possible nowadays, which does jack sht in pvp against anyone that uses shield or is a tank with shield.
A giant part of the community sacrifices weapon/spell damage and magicka/stamina to afford 70% crit chance or so, trying to use debuffing abilities and using penetration instead of just doing raw and smart damage, while the tank has mitigation equipped. And then we are seeing jerks walking around with 2k spell or weapon damage with no resources, unable to take down 10k magicka shield or a tank with 13k stamina, give me a break really.
Just because you see those high numbers on a training dummy doesnt mean it will work at pvp against stationary blocking tank.
But hey, i do 40k dps on a training dummy, any tank in pvp should melt in 2 seconds right? WRONG.

I have to disagree a pve dps build with ground base AoEs are the best way to kill a tank. It's pvp build they are strong against bc they are built to take burst damage. While pve build have sustained large amounts of damage that eat away at a tanks stam very fast. Fight any pvp block build solo with a pve build best way to kill them.

Exactly, a magic user doesn't have to build for pvp, just place different abilities on the bar MAYBE. Since we can shield stack we don't need impenetrable as bubbles can't be crit. So we can use the exact same damage pve build using debuffs and easily kill tanks in pvp no matter what they do

Jhalin · August 2017

The only do damage because you keep wailing on them. If you're too dumb to realize you can just ignore them then you derserved to get curb stopped by the max stacked Fury user.

For reference: STOP HITTING THE TANKS
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Warrior's+Fury+Set

Juhasow · August 2017

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Must have fapped at Blob's permablocking video for so long.

Such build deal 0 damage, have several counters; yet people are still sending QQ post about permablock ability which has been nerfed after morrowind. These complains have already defamed dragonknight users. Thank you. I don't want people saying stuff like you all dragonknight permablocking skyrim fanboys. Thank you!

Tbh Morrowind imporved permablocking on magDK thx for increased amount of stamina You restore from Helping Hands and Battle Roar.

990 stam flat from any of 5 skills generally cost 2600-3500 mag is a buff. You keep going buddy.

Yes it's a buff if You combine both passives. Previously mag dk with ~15k stamina ths for Helping hands was restoring 5% of it so ~750 stam so now You restore over 200 more which is 1 more attack You can block so each using of earthen heart ability is 1 more attack You can blok then before. You'll use skills from earthen heart anyway and You'll get more stamina from this then You get before so yes it's a buff. Previously with 15k stam You would restore maybe 2-3k stamina from using ulti that cost You 200 now You'll restore like 8k+ , so another buff to stamina managment for mag DK.

Dont comment things You dont understand.