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Comparing Julianos pre-HotR to HotR LIVE (patch day 1)
dpencil1
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The following calculations are derived from this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365915/necropotence-examination-more-math-pre-hotr#latest
Precise / Thief
Precise / Shadow
Sharpened / Apprentice, Mage, Shadow, Thief (Penetration Cap)
Sharpened / Apprentice, Lover, Mage, Shadow, Thief (5000 below Penetration Cap):
Takeaway message: The adjustment to Crit Bonuses on sets from 55% to 21% was a good move. That was indeed overperforming. BUT, also reducing the Shadow and Thief/Precise was unnecessary and ends up making them sub-par. If the Shadow and Thief/Precise would be restored to their 3.1.4 versions, the balance would be essentially PERFECT.
ZOS...please listen.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert
Edited by dpencil1 on August 21, 2017 2:58PM Precise / Thief
Julianos pre-HotR: 42352 Magicka, 2879 SD, 72.1% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11095
Prepping HotR 3.1.4 Julianos calculation:
3 Magicka bonuses increased (1 from Julianos, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 x 3 = 2901
1096 x 3 = 3288
3288 - 2901 = 387
42352 ÷ 1.476 = 28693
28693 + 387 = 29080
29080 x 1.476 = 42922
42922 - 42352 = 570 more magicka for Julianos HotR than Julianos pre-HotR
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
1066 x 2 = 2132
2132 - 1376 = 756
756 / 219 = 3.45% more crit for Julianos HotR 3.1.4 than Julianos pre-HotR
Juliano HotR 3.1.4: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 75.5% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11357 (2.36% better than pre-HotR)
Prepping HotR LIVE Julianos calculation:
Same magicka bonuses
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
833 x 2 = 1666
1666 - 1376 = 290
290 / 219 = 1.32% more crit for Julianos HotR LIVE than Julianos pre-HotR
3.45 - 1.32 = 2.13% less gained than 3.1.4
- 2% from Precise, -2% from Thief, -2.13% from set bonuses
75.5 - 6.13 = 69.37
Juliano HotR LIVE: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 69.3% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11043 (0.47% worse than pre-HotR; 2.84% worse than 3.1.4)
So if you were running Precise/Thief before the patch, and would run Precise/Thief after the patch, there would be literally no difference in how Julianos performs now vs. then.
11095
Prepping HotR 3.1.4 Julianos calculation:
3 Magicka bonuses increased (1 from Julianos, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 x 3 = 2901
1096 x 3 = 3288
3288 - 2901 = 387
42352 ÷ 1.476 = 28693
28693 + 387 = 29080
29080 x 1.476 = 42922
42922 - 42352 = 570 more magicka for Julianos HotR than Julianos pre-HotR
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
1066 x 2 = 2132
2132 - 1376 = 756
756 / 219 = 3.45% more crit for Julianos HotR 3.1.4 than Julianos pre-HotR
Juliano HotR 3.1.4: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 75.5% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11357 (2.36% better than pre-HotR)
Prepping HotR LIVE Julianos calculation:
Same magicka bonuses
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
833 x 2 = 1666
1666 - 1376 = 290
290 / 219 = 1.32% more crit for Julianos HotR LIVE than Julianos pre-HotR
3.45 - 1.32 = 2.13% less gained than 3.1.4
- 2% from Precise, -2% from Thief, -2.13% from set bonuses
75.5 - 6.13 = 69.37
Juliano HotR LIVE: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 69.3% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11043 (0.47% worse than pre-HotR; 2.84% worse than 3.1.4)
So if you were running Precise/Thief before the patch, and would run Precise/Thief after the patch, there would be literally no difference in how Julianos performs now vs. then.
Precise / Shadow
18.3% Crit Dmg pre-HotR vs. 13.7% Crit Dmg HotR LIVE
Removing 11% Crit Chance for switching mundus stones
Julianos pre-HotR: 42352 Magicka, 2879 SD, 61.1% Crit, 85.3% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11383 (2.6% better than running Precise/Thief in pre-HotR
Prepping HotR 3.1.4 Julianos calculation:
3 Magicka bonuses increased (1 from Julianos, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 x 3 = 2901
1096 x 3 = 3288
3288 - 2901 = 387
42352 ÷ 1.476 = 28693
28693 + 387 = 29080
29080 x 1.476 = 42922
42922 - 42352 = 570 more magicka for Julianos HotR than Julianos pre-HotR
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
1066 x 2 = 2132
2132 - 1376 = 756
756 / 219 = 3.45% more crit for Julianos HotR 3.1.4 than Julianos pre-HotR
Juliano HotR 3.1.4: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 64.5% Crit, 85.3% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11691 (2.7% better than pre-HotR)
Prepping HotR LIVE Julianos calculation:
Same magicka bonuses
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
833 x 2 = 1666
1666 - 1376 = 290
290 / 219 = 1.32% more crit for Julianos HotR LIVE than Julianos pre-HotR
3.45 - 1.32 = 2.13% less gained than 3.1.4
- 2% from Precise, -2.13% from set bonuses
64.5 - 4.13 = 60.37
Juliano HotR LIVE: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 60.3% Crit, 80.7% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11212 (1.52% worse than pre-HotR)
11212 / 11043 = 1.53%
So while running Julianos with Precise / Shadow is 1.52% worse in HotR LIVE, it's still 1.53% better than running Julianos with Precise / Thief.
Removing 11% Crit Chance for switching mundus stones
Julianos pre-HotR: 42352 Magicka, 2879 SD, 61.1% Crit, 85.3% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11383 (2.6% better than running Precise/Thief in pre-HotR
Prepping HotR 3.1.4 Julianos calculation:
3 Magicka bonuses increased (1 from Julianos, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 x 3 = 2901
1096 x 3 = 3288
3288 - 2901 = 387
42352 ÷ 1.476 = 28693
28693 + 387 = 29080
29080 x 1.476 = 42922
42922 - 42352 = 570 more magicka for Julianos HotR than Julianos pre-HotR
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
1066 x 2 = 2132
2132 - 1376 = 756
756 / 219 = 3.45% more crit for Julianos HotR 3.1.4 than Julianos pre-HotR
Juliano HotR 3.1.4: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 64.5% Crit, 85.3% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11691 (2.7% better than pre-HotR)
Prepping HotR LIVE Julianos calculation:
Same magicka bonuses
2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
833 x 2 = 1666
1666 - 1376 = 290
290 / 219 = 1.32% more crit for Julianos HotR LIVE than Julianos pre-HotR
3.45 - 1.32 = 2.13% less gained than 3.1.4
- 2% from Precise, -2.13% from set bonuses
64.5 - 4.13 = 60.37
Juliano HotR LIVE: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 60.3% Crit, 80.7% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11212 (1.52% worse than pre-HotR)
11212 / 11043 = 1.53%
So while running Julianos with Precise / Shadow is 1.52% worse in HotR LIVE, it's still 1.53% better than running Julianos with Precise / Thief.
Sharpened / Apprentice, Mage, Shadow, Thief (Penetration Cap)
These are the Effective Spell Power numbers for the build referenced above using Sharpened on HotR LIVE. I'll also include comparisons to how Thief and Sharpened would have looked if they had preserved their 3.1.4 values, but still only boosted crit set bonuses by 21%. We are assuming 2408 extra penetration from outside sources, not including Major Breach, to reach penetration cap (i.e. the old Sharpened value).
10000 points are subtracted from each value to better highlight their differences:
This seems like pretty strong proof that all they needed to do was tone down the 1-4 piece crit buffs and should have left the mundus stones as they were on the PTS.
10000 points are subtracted from each value to better highlight their differences:
This seems like pretty strong proof that all they needed to do was tone down the 1-4 piece crit buffs and should have left the mundus stones as they were on the PTS.
Sharpened / Apprentice, Lover, Mage, Shadow, Thief (5000 below Penetration Cap):
100 (Base Penetration) + 4884 (Light Armor) + 5280 (Major Breach) + 2752 (Sharpened) = 13016 + 4192 (Lover w/Divines) = 17208
18200 - 17208 = 992
So using Major Breach and Sharpened on a Light Armor character, you can only add 992 more Penetration (10 CP in Spell Erosion) before you begin over-penetrating.
We will be at 91.6% Penetration without Lover, and 100% with Lover (a difference of 8.4%)
All values will be lower here because 40 CP were removed from Spell Erosion but not added anywhere else. The relative strength is what we are concerned with.
Again, 10000 points are subtracted from each value:
One thing to keep in mind: Gilliamtherogue has observed lower than expected values when adding Penetration in-game, especially closer to the pen cap. I'm still not totally sure why this anomaly exists, but suffice it to say, take the big lead from Lover here with a grain of salt. Also, remember that from an operational cost perspective, if you have all the pen buffs listed above, you miss out on taking advantage of cheap penetration gains from CP between points 11-50. You can put those points elsewhere, but they will accomplish less if placed into stars that are already near 50 points. If you are using a non-Sharp weapon or not applying Major Breach then the operational cost of using Lover is smaller and makes a good choice for consideration, particularly in solo play.
18200 - 17208 = 992
So using Major Breach and Sharpened on a Light Armor character, you can only add 992 more Penetration (10 CP in Spell Erosion) before you begin over-penetrating.
We will be at 91.6% Penetration without Lover, and 100% with Lover (a difference of 8.4%)
All values will be lower here because 40 CP were removed from Spell Erosion but not added anywhere else. The relative strength is what we are concerned with.
Again, 10000 points are subtracted from each value:
One thing to keep in mind: Gilliamtherogue has observed lower than expected values when adding Penetration in-game, especially closer to the pen cap. I'm still not totally sure why this anomaly exists, but suffice it to say, take the big lead from Lover here with a grain of salt. Also, remember that from an operational cost perspective, if you have all the pen buffs listed above, you miss out on taking advantage of cheap penetration gains from CP between points 11-50. You can put those points elsewhere, but they will accomplish less if placed into stars that are already near 50 points. If you are using a non-Sharp weapon or not applying Major Breach then the operational cost of using Lover is smaller and makes a good choice for consideration, particularly in solo play.
Takeaway message: The adjustment to Crit Bonuses on sets from 55% to 21% was a good move. That was indeed overperforming. BUT, also reducing the Shadow and Thief/Precise was unnecessary and ends up making them sub-par. If the Shadow and Thief/Precise would be restored to their 3.1.4 versions, the balance would be essentially PERFECT.
ZOS...please listen.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert
24
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ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
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What does that possibly add to this discussion? Having good stats is meta and that is somehow bad? Troll somewhere else. If you want to play terrible builds with terrible stats, then have at it, but don't come to the forums to critize people spending time to try and help the community at large figure out the changes.39 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@dpencil1
Shadow pre-HotR gave 12% crit dmg, with full divines that 7 x 7.5%= 52.5% in total 18.3% crit dmg.
Shadow HotR gives 9% crit dmg, with full divines that 7 x 7.5%= 52.5% in total 13.7% crit dmg.
My crit dmg with Apprentice is just as high (with higher non-crit attacks) so there's no point in running Shadow now.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer7 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, crap. I'm sick of being *** nerfed every 3 months. It's seriously just becoming a tedious chore trying to keep up with all this nonsense now.
I aint quittin, but two or three more nerfs and maybe I'll start thinking about maybe playing less...Edited by Bobby_V_Rockit on August 15, 2017 6:44AM4 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
What does that possibly add to this discussion? Having good stats is meta and that is somehow bad? Troll somewhere else. If you want to play terrible builds with terrible stats, then have at it, but don't come to the forums to critize people spending time to try and help the community at large figure out the changes.
Well that was incredibly aggressive? You made a ton of assumptions just because, what, I used the word "reek"? Hope you enjoy all those Agrees and Awesomes you got for flying off the handle.
Besides it sounds like there's no discussion to be had. The OP basically stated there's no meaningful change.CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!6 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Added a comparison of the Apprentice, Mage, Shadow, and Thief mundus stones paired with Sharpened to the OP.4 -
Aionari✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
What does that possibly add to this discussion? Having good stats is meta and that is somehow bad? Troll somewhere else. If you want to play terrible builds with terrible stats, then have at it, but don't come to the forums to critize people spending time to try and help the community at large figure out the changes.
Well that was incredibly aggressive? You made a ton of assumptions just because, what, I used the word "reek"? Hope you enjoy all those Agrees and Awesomes you got for flying off the handle.
Besides it sounds like there's no discussion to be had. The OP basically stated there's no meaningful change.
There are no possible ways to take 'REEK' in a positive ways.reek
Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1. a strong, unpleasant smell.
2. vapor or steam.
verb (used without object)
3. to smell strongly and unpleasantly.
4. to be strongly pervaded with something unpleasant or offensive.
5. to give off steam, smoke, etc.
6. to be wet with sweat, blood, etc.
verb (used with object)
7. to give off; emit; exude.
8. to expose to or treat with smoke.Infernum aliud est populus!6 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
What does that possibly add to this discussion? Having good stats is meta and that is somehow bad? Troll somewhere else. If you want to play terrible builds with terrible stats, then have at it, but don't come to the forums to critize people spending time to try and help the community at large figure out the changes.
Well that was incredibly aggressive? You made a ton of assumptions just because, what, I used the word "reek"? Hope you enjoy all those Agrees and Awesomes you got for flying off the handle.
Besides it sounds like there's no discussion to be had. The OP basically stated there's no meaningful change.
There are no possible ways to take 'REEK' in a positive ways.reek
Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1. a strong, unpleasant smell.
2. vapor or steam.
verb (used without object)
3. to smell strongly and unpleasantly.
4. to be strongly pervaded with something unpleasant or offensive.
5. to give off steam, smoke, etc.
6. to be wet with sweat, blood, etc.
verb (used with object)
7. to give off; emit; exude.
8. to expose to or treat with smoke.
"To give off, emit, exude" is pretty neutral.CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!2 -
Balsagna✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
What does that possibly add to this discussion? Having good stats is meta and that is somehow bad? Troll somewhere else. If you want to play terrible builds with terrible stats, then have at it, but don't come to the forums to critize people spending time to try and help the community at large figure out the changes.
Mic drop.1 -
malchior✭✭✭✭Theon Greyjoy might have something to say about that.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
What does that possibly add to this discussion? Having good stats is meta and that is somehow bad? Troll somewhere else. If you want to play terrible builds with terrible stats, then have at it, but don't come to the forums to critize people spending time to try and help the community at large figure out the changes.
Well that was incredibly aggressive? You made a ton of assumptions just because, what, I used the word "reek"? Hope you enjoy all those Agrees and Awesomes you got for flying off the handle.
Besides it sounds like there's no discussion to be had. The OP basically stated there's no meaningful change.
There are no possible ways to take 'REEK' in a positive ways.reek
Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1. a strong, unpleasant smell.
2. vapor or steam.
verb (used without object)
3. to smell strongly and unpleasantly.
4. to be strongly pervaded with something unpleasant or offensive.
5. to give off steam, smoke, etc.
6. to be wet with sweat, blood, etc.
verb (used with object)
7. to give off; emit; exude.
8. to expose to or treat with smoke.
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dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Updated the graph in the mundus comparison section to include 3.1.4 values for Thief and Shadow. @ZOS_GinaBruno Any hope this data can be reviewed and the mundus stones readjusted back to 3.1.4 values? All they needed to do was reduce the set bonus buffs.1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Updated the graph in the mundus comparison section to include 3.1.4 values for Thief and Shadow. @ZOS_GinaBruno Any hope this data can be reviewed and the mundus stones readjusted back to 3.1.4 values? All they needed to do was reduce the set bonus buffs.
You'd think so, but if this results in any change it will probably get Apprentice and Warrior nerfed.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.3 -
NotNormanBates✭✭✭
Isn't that the truthUpdated the graph in the mundus comparison section to include 3.1.4 values for Thief and Shadow. @ZOS_GinaBruno Any hope this data can be reviewed and the mundus stones readjusted back to 3.1.4 values? All they needed to do was reduce the set bonus buffs.
You'd think so, but if this results in any change it will probably get Apprentice and Warrior nerfed.
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LMar✭✭✭✭✭
✭So it basically means that Apprentice is better than the Thief now?"If a stick of fish is a fish stick, it will stick like other fish sticks stick"
"Taller races now sit in chairs correctly"0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So it basically means that Apprentice is better than the Thief now?
Apprentice > Thief > Mage > ShadowPC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer2 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In case anyone doesn't click through and see the TL;DR:
Apprentice is stronger for magicka builds than other mundus stones by far, and is only barely weaker than what the Shadow would have been pre-nerf. Pre-nerf, Shadow and Thief are virtually the same as Apprentice. Thus:This seems like pretty strong proof that all they needed to do was tone down the 1-4 piece crit buffs and should have left the mundus stones as they were on the PTS.
So the the nerf to set crit bonuses by itself would have preserved balance; the Shadow/Thief nerfs were what broke balance again.
7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.2 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP Updated with a comparison of mundus stone impact on my Julianos build developed in the thread linked at the top. Here, I set all penetration vales about 5000 lower so we could see the full impact of Lover. Please read the paragraph under the graph as well.0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭Has anyone done analysis on Hundings and/or Leviathan with Warrior vs. Thief/Shadow?
I can see this dynamic having huge implication for stamina crit builds as well.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0
