Why make fundamental changes from PTS to live?

FakeFox · August 2017

I get that you want to get the testing results from the last week of the PTS on live as well, but simply changing things on patchday that have never been tested can't be the solution. In my opinion the PTS was great apart from a few little things and now a lot of it is gone again. Sets and other stats that have been overperforming just slightly have been nerfed into oblivion without any playertesting. On top of that we got a few exciting new bugs (like ether having 2k crit on the fivepiece) and ones that have been on PTS for weeks still aren't fixed (like the no death achivement in Falkreath). What is the PTS even there for if multiple weeks of testing and good rebalancing then get just thrown out the window. For HotR it already is too late now, but I hope this will not happen with the next update.

I don't understand how stuff like this can happen. All I know is that if I would work like this in my job, giving out unfinished work to costumers or changing it in the last minute without letting them know, I would have been fired a long time ago.

DRXHarbinger · August 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

I get that you want to get the testing results from the last week of the PTS on live as well, but simply changing things on patchday that have never been tested can't be the solution. In my opinion the PTS was great apart from a few little things and now a lot of it is gone again. Sets and other stats that have been overperforming just slightly have been nerfed into oblivion without any playertesting. On top of that we got a few exciting new bugs (like ether having 2k crit on the fivepiece) and ones that have been on PTS for weeks still aren't fixed (like the no death achivement in Falkreath). What is the PTS even there for if multiple weeks of testing and good rebalancing then get just thrown out the window. For HotR it already is too late now, but I hope this will not happen with the next update.

I don't understand how stuff like this can happen. All I know is that if I would work like this in my job, giving out unfinished work to costumers or changing it in the last minute without letting them know, I would have been fired a long time ago.

You still bought it though right? Then it doesn't matter from ZOS' point of view. Never do they ever make any guarantees anything will be working as intended, enjoyable or anything of any logical kind.

The shareholders thank you for your custom.

ADarklore · August 2017

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

FakeFox · August 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

The diversity has decreased from PTS to live, that the joke about it.

ookami007 · August 2017

Because the Devs are crazy?!

FakeFox · August 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I get that you want to get the testing results from the last week of the PTS on live as well, but simply changing things on patchday that have never been tested can't be the solution. In my opinion the PTS was great apart from a few little things and now a lot of it is gone again. Sets and other stats that have been overperforming just slightly have been nerfed into oblivion without any playertesting. On top of that we got a few exciting new bugs (like ether having 2k crit on the fivepiece) and ones that have been on PTS for weeks still aren't fixed (like the no death achivement in Falkreath). What is the PTS even there for if multiple weeks of testing and good rebalancing then get just thrown out the window. For HotR it already is too late now, but I hope this will not happen with the next update.

I don't understand how stuff like this can happen. All I know is that if I would work like this in my job, giving out unfinished work to costumers or changing it in the last minute without letting them know, I would have been fired a long time ago.

You still bought it though right? Then it doesn't matter from ZOS' point of view. Never do they ever make any guarantees anything will be working as intended, enjoyable or anything of any logical kind.

The shareholders thank you for your custom.

I have ESO+. xD

But for real, that's not how a healthy business works. In long therm this kills a business. A lot of people complaining will stay since they have infested a lot money , time and have made friends in the game. So do I. But ESO will die at some point and ZOS/Bethesda will have to make and sell a new game. And I will for sure not get invested in that one. If you ruin your reputation for money you will make profit in the short term, but you will suffer in the long run.

Grymmoire · August 2017

ookami007 wrote: »

Because the Devs are crazy?!

BAD DEVS, BAD DEVS, NO MORE CAFFEINE FOR YOU!!!

casparian · August 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

That's just the thing -- on PTS, there was no particular setup that was far superior and OP to all the others. Mother's Sorrow + Shadow was very good, but it was something like 1.5k DPS stronger than the old setup of 5 Juli + 4 minor slayer set + 2 Undaunted. Different setups were strongest for different content, with no static BIS emerging. If you had actually listened to Alcast and Gilliam instead of just skimming their content, you would have heard them say exactly that.

Instead, in the version that went live, we're back to having a single, static BIS setup. Except it's not the same as the old static BIS setup, so not only are we still stuck with the old static-BIS system, we still have to farm new gear. It's the worst of both worlds.

quake89 · August 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

The diversity has decreased from PTS to live, that the joke about it.

Indeed if you take the PTS testing and results from 3.14 the difference between multiple set ups was within the 2 - 4% range at most and that was only under certain situations one set up would perform the best at x content and another at y. ZOS had finally figured out a fairly balanced and well thought out patch in which the OP set ups were swiftly corrected IE: Torugs and the double infused bug.

Yes the theory crafters had obtained as to what would be a BIS set up as a overall but you could in theory get better results by specifically building for the respective content you were going to be playing so that overall BIS may well have no been BIS for the content you were doing.

What I do not understand is the shot gun reaction to the builds was crit over performing in relative terms to other options it wasn't miles ahead. While you could argue that the 1 - 4 bonuses could have been adjusted thats all well and good a bit of fine tuning never hurt. But we didn't get fine tuning what we got was the butcher treatment in which they not only nerfed the 1 - 4 piece bonus but the mundus stones as well.

All of a sudden the diverse fun to play patch was shattered because of a knee jerk reaction because some one at ZOS thought that crit builds would be a generic BIS for all no matter what was going on. When the sad reality is that they have even further pigeon holed us into a 1 set up is better than all completely going against what the original plan was for this update.

I do hope someone at ZOS could at least come out and provide information as to why these changes were made because at this point I'm struggling to see the thought logic. I doubt thats going to happen but a tad of communication on there behalf would be very well received I feel.

but hey this is just my thoughts on the game right now

luen79rwb17_ESO · August 2017

PTS is ment to test not to get you ready for next BiS meta

DoonerSeraph · August 2017

Grymmoire wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

Because the Devs are crazy?!

BAD DEVS, BAD DEVS, NO MORE CAFFEINE FOR YOU!!!

You take out my caffeine and YOU WILL SEE WHAT BAD CODE IS! *twitches eye*

Slick_007 · August 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

I don't understand how stuff like this can happen. All I know is that if I would work like this in my job, giving out unfinished work to costumers or changing it in the last minute without letting them know, I would have been fired a long time ago.

you think you are so important they have to get your approval to make changes or something? they can make as many changes as they want last minute. its their product. its not like something you order from them with specific requirements and can only be built a specific way. they can make whatever changes they like, whenever they like, and they dont have to tell you anything about it.

casparian · August 2017

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

PTS is ment to test not to get you ready for next BiS meta

Did you just not read the other posts? PTS testing showed there was no BiS meta, and this was a very positive development. (It also showed several bugs that were reported and not fixed.) No one is complaining that what they thought would be BiS turns out not to be; we're complaining that ZOS figured out how to balance the game for once, then decided not to implement that very well-received system in favor of preserving the status quo.

FakeFox · August 2017

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

PTS is ment to test not to get you ready for next BiS meta

I agree. However in order to make this game more balanced people have to be able to test what is BIS and by how much on PTS and the results should carry over to live to some extend. How it is now there was no point to even playing the PTS.

Elsonso · August 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

I don't understand how stuff like this can happen. All I know is that if I would work like this in my job, giving out unfinished work to costumers or changing it in the last minute without letting them know, I would have been fired a long time ago.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Time driven development, coupled with features that must be delivered, encourages this, and ZOS is filled to the brim with both of those ideas.

ADarklore wrote: »

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues...

PTS is about players testing game play, which includes balance issues, and can include the discovery of new bugs.

quake89 wrote: »

I do hope someone at ZOS could at least come out and provide information as to why these changes were made because at this point I'm struggling to see the thought logic. I doubt thats going to happen but a tad of communication on there behalf would be very well received I feel.

While I think they should have been doing this from Day 1, ultimately, it will not matter, and could make things worse.

What they need is a bright, socially savvy, dev that will come out and hold their own with the theory crafters. This person needs to come out and banter with the community at least once every couple of weeks, on a variety of different game play topics. This would be part of their job at ZOS. A Gina or Jessica that is a dev and knows their way around the combat theory. The purpose of this would not be to influence development as much as to level set and influence the community and provide a technical PR opportunity.

Right now, they are taking the "leave the driving to us" approach, and that does not sit well with people who wander off and voice their negative opinion about their "driving". The people who don't care what ZOS does, and are happy to let ZOS do the "driving", are (largely) not the ones out telling people to play, or not play, this game.

Johnfred24 · August 2017

Slick_007 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I don't understand how stuff like this can happen. All I know is that if I would work like this in my job, giving out unfinished work to costumers or changing it in the last minute without letting them know, I would have been fired a long time ago.

you think you are so important they have to get your approval to make changes or something? they can make as many changes as they want last minute. its their product. its not like something you order from them with specific requirements and can only be built a specific way. they can make whatever changes they like, whenever they like, and they dont have to tell you anything about it.

And we have the right to criticise those decisions. What the hell is the point of your comment? Of course they can do everything they want to, but that doesn't mean that what they do is good for the game

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

LMAO if ZOS could see the "balance" from their analytics. The game wouldnt be in the condition it is in balance wise. The only people that have solid idea of the balance of the game are those elite players. As their the number crunchers, theory crafters and exploit hunters. We wouldnt have these metas popping up if ZOS could identify the balance issues without the top tier players peeling back the layers of the game. Could you be anymore of an apologist with this sort of comment about what PTS is there for.

Feanor · August 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

LMAO if ZOS could see the "balance" from their analytics. The game wouldnt be in the condition it is in balance wise. The only people that have solid idea of the balance of the game are those elite players. As their the number crunchers, theory crafters and exploit hunters. We wouldnt have these metas popping up if ZOS could identify the balance issues without the top tier players peeling back the layers of the game. Could you be anymore of an apologist with this sort of comment about what PTS is there for.

That's the point. Data can only show you so much. Besides, data itself is pretty worthless. It gains its meaning only by being analyzed, and that is a quite subjective process with its own issues. If you take set or armor weights usage for example, these two may tell you if something is good or overperforming even. But only if you take the data from the right subset. I would think the vast majority of the "casual" players does not give a whole lot of thought to their armor choices. So if you take the whole population as source for your data it's going to be skewed in the wrong direction, no matter what you do.

Suspicion is that ZOS only looks at data when actually playing the game would give you insight much quicker (or can anyone explain how ZOS arrived at their weird numbers for some buffs and nerfs, notably the 40 stamina points "buff" on Hulking Draugr and the 850 nerf on the Necro 5pc). I heard a story about how they came to invigorating being exactly 11 resource at legendary. I believe it as it fits the picture of a decision making based solely on skewed data and little game experience.

seedubsrun · August 2017

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

PTS is ment to test not to get you ready for next BiS meta

Again, as mentioned the lack of a static BiS was the best part of early PTS. Also, finding BiS in PTS is a huge part of accurate testing. Sure, finding bugs are also very important but judging by the fact that Zos went crazy on balance, or lack-thereof, while ignoring some of the stated bugs upon going live suggests that bugs weren't a top priority. PTS will always suss out BiS. It has to, here's why:

When it comes to balance of gear/mundus finding BiS is essential. You get to BiS mathematically and then work backwards to see if there can be diversity in options that get you very close to BiS in terms of performance. If it's discovered that many combinations of armor/weapon/trait/mundus are roughly equal in viability then you've achieved balance or at least close. If you find that one combination far exceeds the others then there's work to do still. The issue is that Zos got closer to actual balance than probably ever before and then promptly squandered it.

Zos just needs to be more disciplined with their PTS if they're going to have it. Maybe start it a week earlier if they need more data or focus just on bugs the week before live. PTS is and should be an indicator of what's to come. If Zos disagrees with that then the PTS section of the forums should be available only to those using it and they should always use a NDA for new content (Obviously, that would be a terrible idea) but they can't have it both ways

SanTii.92 · August 2017

Because no fundamental change has been made on patch day. Just another round of balance. And you know, zos didn't suddenly lose the ability to keep changing thing, for God's sake, stop acting like the world's falling.

FoolishHuman · August 2017

The question should be why make guides and calculated builds from an unfinished version that might not make it to the live server like that. The mistake here is the community wanting to have all builds 100% made and ready on patch day instead of waiting for the actual patch notes.

Demolitionary · August 2017

lol at everyone for farming gear they thought would be the next best thing trololol

PTS is for testing not for getting you prepared for changes.

Slick_007 · August 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

I agree. However in order to make this game more balanced people have to be able to test what is BIS and by how much on PTS and the results should carry over to live to some extend. How it is now there was no point to even playing the PTS.

and here i think is the problem. you and others see the pts as playing instead of what it actually is. testing.

the only people here with ALL the information, are the devs. i believe they have reasons for making the changes that they do. Yes, sometimes there may be unintended consequences but they still have a reason to make the changes they do.

MakeNoiseMan · August 2017

I haven't done any extensive testing personally, so I'm only speculating, but as far as I know all the sets that looked promising (namely Mother's Sorrow) are still going to be very good. The DPS difference is still going to be the desirable 1 - 2k. It's just that now, instead of an overland/crafted setup pulling out slightly ahead, the trials/Maelstrom gear setup pulls out slightly ahead. Sad Mama + Julianos is still great, but it now takes a slight backseat to gear earned in the game's hardest content. I think that's appropriate.

As far as the traits are concerned, I think those adjustments/nerfs (reduced buffs?) are appropriate as well. I think the goal of the trait rebalancing was to expand our number of options, not to replace the old BiS with a new one. For most of the PTS cycle, Sharpened was being outperformed by Precise, Infused and Nirn, meaning that everyone who had farmed Sharp weapons were SoL and would have to grind new ones again. By toning down the other traits, they are brought closer in line, making the four DPS-oriented weapon traits more or less equal to one another. Now, no one has to re-farm anything. You simply build for that with which RNG blesses you. Already have a Sharp vMA inferno? Awesome! Run the Thief or Apprentice and carry on. Never got a Sharp vMA, but you have Precise or Nirn? No worries! Run the Lover and have fun. Still haven't gotten any vMA weapons, or are still working on your clear? That's okay! Crafted/overland sets are a very close second choice. I think, despite the last-minute changes (or dare I say it, because of them) this has shaped up to be the best patch to date for build diversity. And all forms of weapon farming appear to have become much less daunting, because there are four times as many runnable traits.

seedubsrun · August 2017

MakeNoiseMan wrote: »

I haven't done any extensive testing personally, so I'm only speculating, but as far as I know all the sets that looked promising (namely Mother's Sorrow) are still going to be very good. The DPS difference is still going to be the desirable 1 - 2k. It's just that now, instead of an overland/crafted setup pulling out slightly ahead, the trials/Maelstrom gear setup pulls out slightly ahead. Sad Mama + Julianos is still great, but it now takes a slight backseat to gear earned in the game's hardest content. I think that's appropriate.

As far as the traits are concerned, I think those adjustments/nerfs (reduced buffs?) are appropriate as well. I think the goal of the trait rebalancing was to expand our number of options, not to replace the old BiS with a new one. For most of the PTS cycle, Sharpened was being outperformed by Precise, Infused and Nirn, meaning that everyone who had farmed Sharp weapons were SoL and would have to grind new ones again. By toning down the other traits, they are brought closer in line, making the four DPS-oriented weapon traits more or less equal to one another. Now, no one has to re-farm anything. You simply build for that with which RNG blesses you. Already have a Sharp vMA inferno? Awesome! Run the Thief or Apprentice and carry on. Never got a Sharp vMA, but you have Precise or Nirn? No worries! Run the Lover and have fun. Still haven't gotten any vMA weapons, or are still working on your clear? That's okay! Crafted/overland sets are a very close second choice. I think, despite the last-minute changes (or dare I say it, because of them) this has shaped up to be the best patch to date for build diversity. And all forms of weapon farming appear to have become much less daunting, because there are four times as many runnable traits.

What you've suggested was how the PTS was shaping up to be released as. With the last minute changes right before live that went away.

sekou_trayvond · August 2017

casparian wrote: »

...then decided not to implement that very well-received system in favor of preserving the status quo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

https://youtu.be/ePiKE83sAIg

https://youtu.be/ePiKE83sAIg

Elsonso · August 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

LMAO if ZOS could see the "balance" from their analytics. The game wouldnt be in the condition it is in balance wise. The only people that have solid idea of the balance of the game are those elite players. As their the number crunchers, theory crafters and exploit hunters. We wouldnt have these metas popping up if ZOS could identify the balance issues without the top tier players peeling back the layers of the game. Could you be anymore of an apologist with this sort of comment about what PTS is there for.

Don't forget that the goals of the player theory crafters, exploiters, and number crunchers do not perfectly line up with the goals of the studio. This is a big reason why no studio should just do what these players want.

ZOS has their own analytic people, and their own theory crafters, but they are working off of different data than what the players are using. ZOS can not only look to see how combat is performing, but can look to see how combat is performing based on how the majority of the players are actually playing the game. This is going to result in differences from what the theory crafter players are calculating.

What most people consider to be "incompetence" by ZOS likely boils down to a difference driven by multiple different perspectives and objectives for the game.

Ryan1704 · August 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is how it can happen... you have elite players figuring out that one particular set of gear or skill is far superior and OP to all the others... the update has to go Live as scheduled... so this is how we get last minute changes when it goes Live.

Also, PTS is about finding bugs NOT about testing 'balance' issues... ZOS can see balance issues by observing the data from those running PTS or Live. You also say that things have been changed without player testing, and again, ZOS has the data and can see over time how different things are working. You also have to understand ZOS cares more about 'diversity' than making sets or skills OP... they want to make all sets equal so players have options and choices instead of all rushing to the BiS gear; so BiS will always get nerfed because it goes against ZOS' desire to have diversity.

There will always be a bis set up no matter what and in my opinion if all builds were somehow made to be equally good where would my incentive be to run content to get different gear? Surely the whole idea behind an mmo is to gradually build your character up overtime slowly gaining power by aquiring the best sets in the game

Ryan1704 · August 2017

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

PTS is ment to test not to get you ready for next BiS meta

Good job that everyone gets to test the random last minute changes before they go live? Ah wait a minute ....

Gamanoid · August 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

LMAO if ZOS could see the "balance" from their analytics. The game wouldnt be in the condition it is in balance wise. The only people that have solid idea of the balance of the game are those elite players. As their the number crunchers, theory crafters and exploit hunters. We wouldnt have these metas popping up if ZOS could identify the balance issues without the top tier players peeling back the layers of the game. Could you be anymore of an apologist with this sort of comment about what PTS is there for.

Don't forget that the goals of the player theory crafters, exploiters, and number crunchers do not perfectly line up with the goals of the studio. This is a big reason why no studio should just do what these players want.

ZOS has their own analytic people, and their own theory crafters, but they are working off of different data than what the players are using. ZOS can not only look to see how combat is performing, but can look to see how combat is performing based on how the majority of the players are actually playing the game. This is going to result in differences from what the theory crafter players are calculating.

What most people consider to be "incompetence" by ZOS likely boils down to a difference driven by multiple different perspectives and objectives for the game.

I understand.

That's why the shadow mundus, performs worse than Warrior/Apprentice at its own purpose of boosting crit damage.

Also if you remember, that's why the prosperous trait performed mathematically worse than impenetrable at its own purpose of farming gold.

Emergent gameplay is a concept that some developers embrace while others frantically try to quell whack-a-mole style without regard for consequence.

But hey, it makes me feel better that you share that same old sentiment seen in other games

Elsonso · August 2017

Gamanoid wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

LMAO if ZOS could see the "balance" from their analytics. The game wouldnt be in the condition it is in balance wise. The only people that have solid idea of the balance of the game are those elite players. As their the number crunchers, theory crafters and exploit hunters. We wouldnt have these metas popping up if ZOS could identify the balance issues without the top tier players peeling back the layers of the game. Could you be anymore of an apologist with this sort of comment about what PTS is there for.

Don't forget that the goals of the player theory crafters, exploiters, and number crunchers do not perfectly line up with the goals of the studio. This is a big reason why no studio should just do what these players want.

ZOS has their own analytic people, and their own theory crafters, but they are working off of different data than what the players are using. ZOS can not only look to see how combat is performing, but can look to see how combat is performing based on how the majority of the players are actually playing the game. This is going to result in differences from what the theory crafter players are calculating.

What most people consider to be "incompetence" by ZOS likely boils down to a difference driven by multiple different perspectives and objectives for the game.

I understand.

That's why the shadow mundus, performs worse than Warrior/Apprentice at its own purpose of boosting crit damage.

Also if you remember, that's why the prosperous trait performed mathematically worse than impenetrable at its own purpose of farming gold.

Emergent gameplay is a concept that some developers embrace while others frantically try to quell whack-a-mole style without regard for consequence.

But hey, it makes me feel better that you share that same old sentiment seen in other games

Yeah, I can see ZOS embracing Emergent gameplay. Right after they embrace open communication with the players, address Cyrodiil lag, prioritize the game over monetization, solve world hunger, create a working FTL drive, prove the Unified Field Theory, and a couple other minor things.