Oblivion Damage

Elyu · August 2017

Big wall of text inc! Note this thread is about oblivion damage in pvp only.

Counterplay to high heal builds is stack debuffs on them.
Counterplay to high resist builds is stack penetration and unblockable stuns (i.e fear/fossilise)
etc etc

There is NO counter to unresistable damage.

The infused buff hasn't even made it to live servers and I've already encountered a mag dk using knight slayer, infused 1H with oblivion glyph. With heavy attack weaves on a 20k health target that works out as about 3400 damage per second (20000*0.09)+(2400*(2/3)) assuming oblivion glyh procs every 1.5 seconds with infused.

Oblivion damage was originally intended to counter extremely high shields sizes and prevent shield stackers from having a guaranteed survival every time they popped healing ward, adding in some risk to relying totally on shields.

Then of course you'd successfully 1vX group then they would all equip shield breaker and light attack you to death, leaving you no counterplay (turned the tables too far the other way).

And oblivion damage deals full amount through every mitigation type in game... resists? Doesn't count. Major/minor protection? Doesn't Count? Mistform? Also doesn't count.

Whereas shields breaker was to counter shields tackers, knight slayer was to counter high health builds....with the addition of oblivion glyphs on infused weapons both sets are too effective against anyone and everything, especially when used Xv1.

So my suggestion revolves around those 3 things: shields breaker, knight slayer, oblivion glyph, and ultimately means removing oblivion damage from the game entirely.

Oblivion glyph: Of the three 'absorb' glyhs this one makes the least sense.
Absorb magicka glyph deals magic damage and restores magicka, ok makes sense.
Absorb stamina glyph deals magic damage and restores stamina, should deal physical/poison damage but again, makes sense.
Absob health glyph....deals 1900 unresistable damage....and restores nothing.

I would at least change it to be consistent with the other two; deal magic damage and restore health. Or make it a counter to the disease damage status effect, give it a chance to proc minor mending.

Shield breaker: purpose is to finish off low health shield stacking targets.

Note this set was introduced to the game before the champion point system with the 'shield shatterer' passive, which fulfills near enough the same purpose.
I can think of two options to be the new 5 part of this set: allow crits against shields while this set is equipped or gain major berserk against shielded targets under 25% health. Both would allow the wearer to put greater pressure on shielded targets without completely bypassing a key element of someones build / playstyle.

What with most shield builds in cyrodil using resto ulti anyway maybe neither option by itself is strong enough!

Knight slayer:
I think this set, by name and what the 5 part does, was intended to counter high health block tanks, but like many other new sets fails in its purpose because it relies on shaky foundations (oblivion damage) without being interesting or innovative in what it does.

Ignoring this set for a moment, the 'ordinary' counter to tanky builds is using unblockable ccs such as fear or fossilise to get the target to drop block and/or attacks which deal their full damage whether the target is blocking or not, such as sorcs curse (I think that's the only skill).

So if oblivion damage was to be removed knight slayer could use those two mechanics.

Option 1: Grants the wearer the ability to cc through block, and any DoT effects active on the target at the time of cc are consumed to deal the remainder of their damage instantly (delayed burst attacks such as purifying light or curse count as DoT effects for the purposes of this set).
^^^probably the most powerful option and second part of set should be looked at carefully
EDIT: only activates if target blocks your attacks for <7 seconds

Option 2: Every time you attack a target, the more your attacks are mitigated (armour, major/minor protection, block etc does NOT include shields) you gain a stack of 'frenzy'. Frenzy can be tiered up every 4 seconds to a maximum of 5 stacks, and can only proc if your outgoing attack is mitigated for more than 60% of it's damage.
1 stack: attacks apply minor breach and minor fracture lasting for 3 seconds
2 stacks: effects of 1 stack + minor defile
3: first 2 stacks + minor vulnerability
4:first 3 stacks + a rapidly ticking bleed with low damage (5000 magic damage over 10 seconds, but ticks every 0.25 seconds)
5:first 4 stacks + appies minor cowardice (ulti cost increased by 30%)

^^^this option is essentially a berserker style set, the more you see your attacks aren't doing anything you get really angry and start going ham on the target. Not sure if the effects should apply as debuffs to the target or buffs to the wearer (increased pen, minor/major berserk, reduced ult cost etc)

If you've read all the way to the end...thank you

my opinion is that there should never be mechanics in the game that have no counterplay to them, because unless you fix those base mechanics you end up nerfing playstyles and contributing to forcing everyone into running similar builds, reducing diversity and making everything samey...

Safe travels and see you in cyrodil / battlegrounds!

Vapirko · August 2017

Too late man, hope for balance next patch.

Waffennacht · August 2017

If you can't out heal a 3 sec heavy attack then...

You need healz

Elyu · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

If you can't out heal a 3 sec heavy attack then...

You need healz

+ DoT's, + procs, and it's rarely just 1 dude JUST doing heavy attacks

Keep_Door · August 2017

TL;DR

Nerf oblivion damage.

Jamini · August 2017

Elyu wrote: »

The infused buff hasn't even made it to live servers and I've already encountered a mag dk using knight slayer, infused 1H with oblivion glyph. With heavy attack weaves on a 20k health target that works out as about 3400 damage per second (20000*0.09)+(2400*(2/3)) assuming oblivion glyh procs every 1.5 seconds with infused.

3,400 damage every second... I can deal far more than that with just about any decent build.

On your 20k health guy, that build has a 5.8 second TTK, assuming no heals. Vigor and Rally will heal ~1.5-2k per tick each, raising that TTK to 22.2 seconds.

Assuming you aren't using dumb food (by that I mean, you are using food with +health on it) , most players in PvP will have 12,000+5000+4000 health, or 21k health (actually most PvP-centric toons tend to be closer to 25k). This means your unmitigated TTK on a PvP build is 7.1s (27s with hots up). This does not include other burst heals like burning embers, siphoning attacks/strikes, BoL, soothing spores, rally recasts, dark conversion/deal, twilight matriach heal, healing ward heals... I can go on.

Oblivion Glyphs are going to be fine. The sky isn't falling. Slot some heals or run with a healer in your group.

Strider_Roshin · August 2017

Unresistable damage? No counterplay? It's like you're wearing medium armor or something. Thankfully it's not as bad. This is going be a culture shocker to you shield stackers, but to us medium armor wearers it's just another day in Cyrodiil.

Gilvoth · August 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Unresistable damage? No counterplay? It's like you're wearing medium armor or something. Thankfully it's not as bad. This is going be a culture shocker to you shield stackers, but to us medium armor wearers it's just another day in Cyrodiil.

Drummerx04 · August 2017

Elyu wrote: »

Big wall of text inc! Note this thread is about oblivion damage in pvp only.

Counterplay to high heal builds is stack debuffs on them.
Counterplay to high resist builds is stack penetration and unblockable stuns (i.e fear/fossilise)
etc etc

There is NO counter to unresistable damage.

The infused buff hasn't even made it to live servers and I've already encountered a mag dk using knight slayer, infused 1H with oblivion glyph. With heavy attack weaves on a 20k health target that works out as about 3400 damage per second (20000*0.09)+(2400*(2/3)) assuming oblivion glyh procs every 1.5 seconds with infused.

Oblivion damage was originally intended to counter extremely high shields sizes and prevent shield stackers from having a guaranteed survival every time they popped healing ward, adding in some risk to relying totally on shields.

Then of course you'd successfully 1vX group then they would all equip shield breaker and light attack you to death, leaving you no counterplay (turned the tables too far the other way).

And oblivion damage deals full amount through every mitigation type in game... resists? Doesn't count. Major/minor protection? Doesn't Count? Mistform? Also doesn't count.

Whereas shields breaker was to counter shields tackers, knight slayer was to counter high health builds....with the addition of oblivion glyphs on infused weapons both sets are too effective against anyone and everything, especially when used Xv1.

So my suggestion revolves around those 3 things: shields breaker, knight slayer, oblivion glyph, and ultimately means removing oblivion damage from the game entirely.

Oblivion glyph: Of the three 'absorb' glyhs this one makes the least sense.
Absorb magicka glyph deals magic damage and restores magicka, ok makes sense.
Absorb stamina glyph deals magic damage and restores stamina, should deal physical/poison damage but again, makes sense.
Absob health glyph....deals 1900 unresistable damage....and restores nothing.

I would at least change it to be consistent with the other two; deal magic damage and restore health. Or make it a counter to the disease damage status effect, give it a chance to proc minor mending.

Shield breaker: purpose is to finish off low health shield stacking targets.

Note this set was introduced to the game before the champion point system with the 'shield shatterer' passive, which fulfills near enough the same purpose.
I can think of two options to be the new 5 part of this set: allow crits against shields while this set is equipped or gain major berserk against shielded targets under 25% health. Both would allow the wearer to put greater pressure on shielded targets without completely bypassing a key element of someones build / playstyle.

What with most shield builds in cyrodil using resto ulti anyway maybe neither option by itself is strong enough!

Knight slayer:
I think this set, by name and what the 5 part does, was intended to counter high health block tanks, but like many other new sets fails in its purpose because it relies on shaky foundations (oblivion damage) without being interesting or innovative in what it does.

Ignoring this set for a moment, the 'ordinary' counter to tanky builds is using unblockable ccs such as fear or fossilise to get the target to drop block and/or attacks which deal their full damage whether the target is blocking or not, such as sorcs curse (I think that's the only skill).

So if oblivion damage was to be removed knight slayer could use those two mechanics.

Option 1: Grants the wearer the ability to cc through block, and any DoT effects active on the target at the time of cc are consumed to deal the remainder of their damage instantly (delayed burst attacks such as purifying light or curse count as DoT effects for the purposes of this set).
^^^probably the most powerful option and second part of set should be looked at carefully

Option 2: Every time you attack a target, the more your attacks are mitigated (armour, major/minor protection, block etc does NOT include shields) you gain a stack of 'frenzy'. Frenzy can be tiered up every 4 seconds to a maximum of 5 stacks, and can only proc if your outgoing attack is mitigated for more than 60% of it's damage.
1 stack: attacks apply minor breach and minor fracture lasting for 3 seconds
2 stacks: effects of 1 stack + minor defile
3: first 2 stacks + minor vulnerability
4:first 3 stacks + a rapidly ticking bleed with low damage (5000 magic damage over 10 seconds, but ticks every 0.25 seconds)
5:first 4 stacks + appies minor cowardice (ulti cost increased by 30%)

^^^this option is essentially a berserker style set, the more you see your attacks aren't doing anything you get really angry and start going ham on the target. Not sure if the effects should apply as debuffs to the target or buffs to the wearer (increased pen, minor/major berserk, reduced ult cost etc)

If you've read all the way to the end...thank you my opinion is that there should never be mechanics in the game that have no counterplay to them, because unless you fix those base mechanics you end up nerfing playstyles and contributing to forcing everyone into running similar builds, reducing diversity and making everything samey...

Safe travels and see you in cyrodil / battlegrounds!

Wow the bolded option would be literally insane. Imagine NOT being a high health block tank. Have a dk put 3 dots on you, then dragon leap and CC you through block with it and also just the equivalent instant dot damage of basically 3 more dragon leaps. Pass.

Unfortunately for shield users, oblivion damage does have a counter: healing and numbers.

Oblivion damage without a doubt is very much an Xv1 mechanic, with an exception made for shield breaker which is also extremely effective in a 1v1. I think a decent alteration would be to add a cooldown to shield breaker. Procing on EVERY light attack is just a bit too much.

Elyu · August 2017

Jamini wrote: »

Elyu wrote: »

The infused buff hasn't even made it to live servers and I've already encountered a mag dk using knight slayer, infused 1H with oblivion glyph. With heavy attack weaves on a 20k health target that works out as about 3400 damage per second (20000*0.09)+(2400*(2/3)) assuming oblivion glyh procs every 1.5 seconds with infused.

3,400 damage every second... I can deal far more than that with just about any decent build.

On your 20k health guy, that build has a 5.8 second TTK, assuming no heals. Vigor and Rally will heal ~1.5-2k per tick each, raising that TTK to 22.2 seconds.

Assuming you aren't using dumb food (by that I mean, you are using food with +health on it) , most players in PvP will have 12,000+5000+4000 health, or 21k health (actually most PvP-centric toons tend to be closer to 25k). This means your unmitigated TTK on a PvP build is 7.1s (27s with hots up). This does not include other burst heals like burning embers, siphoning attacks/strikes, BoL, soothing spores, rally recasts, dark conversion/deal, twilight matriach heal, healing ward heals... I can go on.

Oblivion Glyphs are going to be fine. The sky isn't falling. Slot some heals or run with a healer in your group.

I agree a full time healer could out heal infused oblivion glyph + knight slayer/shield breaker, that's not the point, the point is that it is completely uncounterable, in addition to any normal source of damage.

I've taken some damage, health dropped to 15k or so, then dead because 2 guys hit me with some skills...it wasn't the skills that killed me, it was the oblivion damage from sets+glyphs that wen through my attempt to survive using healing ward.

Elyu · August 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Unresistable damage? No counterplay? It's like you're wearing medium armor or something. Thankfully it's not as bad. This is going be a culture shocker to you shield stackers, but to us medium armor wearers it's just another day in Cyrodiil.

I play my stamblade more than my mag sorc...go figure.

Strider_Roshin · August 2017

Elyu wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Unresistable damage? No counterplay? It's like you're wearing medium armor or something. Thankfully it's not as bad. This is going be a culture shocker to you shield stackers, but to us medium armor wearers it's just another day in Cyrodiil.

I play my stamblade more than my mag sorc...go figure.

Yeah I'm not saying adding more poison will make this game any healthier, but with how much undodgeable crap there is in this game, and with how OP damage shields, and the tank meta are; forgive me if I'm not more empathetic.

BohnT · August 2017

You'll have lots of fun with the meta. All the people telling us it won't be a problem have no idea. On PC EU there are groups of 10 people, very very bad people, the people you see in a 1vX vid spamming light attacks or dying to fall damage. And they can kill any solo players or small groups of 4 ppl with only light attacks and oblivion damage, no matter what you do you'll die against them unless you are a nb which can avoid the damage with cloak.

Oblivion damage scales way too good with numbers and is the ultimate proc:
No counterplay, good damage, low cooldown, no delay, procs on many sources of damage, can be applied from distance, very little opportunity cost. And you thought viper was a problem

It hits every build, regardless of class and spec it just wrecks them.
If you think balance was *** and tortured to death you have no idea how this will affect the game small hint the balance just got attractive to necrophiles

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

Lol these threads.

Shield users get some beefy counter play and throw hissy fits. Regular enchants hit me harder and apply debuffs to me while in medium.

The counter play is healing. There are no status effects with oblivion.

Yes oblivion damage is gonna be strong. Yes Infused Torags is gonna be very strong if not meta for single target mag users.

but the fact is shield/heavy s+b users had the easy life and as soon as they need to adapt and adjust their build they go insane and cry nerf.

cry about the cooldown reduction of infused or torags. thats what really makes oblivion too strong. or how enchants apply on certain ability dots.

Drummerx04 · August 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lol these threads.

Shield users get some beefy counter play and throw hissy fits. Regular enchants hit me harder and apply debuffs to me while in medium.

The counter play is healing. There are no status effects with oblivion.

Yes oblivion damage is gonna be strong. Yes Infused Torags is gonna be very strong if not meta for single target mag users.

but the fact is shield/heavy s+b users had the easy life and as soon as they need to adapt and adjust their build they go insane and cry nerf.

cry about the cooldown reduction of infused or torags. thats what really makes oblivion too strong. or how enchants apply on certain ability dots.

For classes/builds that can't dodge and cloak constantly during a 3+ minute battle, mitigation via block + armor or damage shields is the way to survive. Oblivion damage bypasses both. On the 4 second cooldown, that cannot be reduced by anything (current stage) it's already empowering higher numbers of players against small numbers of players.

Exhibit 1: Shields + mistform = lol nope we have light attacks.

Next patch we will probably see more of this except the damage health numbers will be higher, and it will take fewer people to achieve the same effect.
No, not everyone will run torug's and infused oblivion damage, I know I probably won't, but the problem is the same as shield breaker. Bad players who hate damage shields will get the build that ignores them and spam light attacks from the safety in numbers and basically wreck people.

What has the pvp community been saying about proc sets for the last year? The instant unavoidable damage is too strong and empowers zergs... proc sets finally get nerfed and what do we get? Instant unavoidable unresistable damage procing with every other light attack. Oh, and the proc can be placed on literally any build and set combination with essentially 0 downside.

But you are right, we should just roll over and take it because you have to dodge things instead of shielding them.

Waseem · August 2017

oblivion damage must be removed from the game
magicka sorcerers should not die in PvP.

we all need this immortal magicka sorcerer around as to spectate the combat and record videos for youtube
the camera man must never die.

everyone should defend the shieldstackers. if you cant kill me with my 25k HP and 20-25k damage shields then you are noob and must learn to play stop forum QQ posts thanks!

Waffennacht · August 2017

I've been a magicka sorc for 2 years and a mag warden primarily there after, an I still don't have an issue with the existence of Oblivion Damage

bubbygink · August 2017

Here is my issue with the oblivion glyph: there is literally no reason to use any other glyph on a PVP damage dealer. None. Why in the world would use a fire damage glyph when you can do more damage, and irresistible at that, with an oblivion glyph? ZOS spent some time to balance weapon traits this patch and they should have done the same with glpyhs. Everyone is going to be running oblivion glyphs, there will be no diversity. It needs to be balance with the other glyphs.

RoamingRiverElk · August 2017

It's going to be bad. Very bad. And not just for mag sorcs.

Cinbri · August 2017

Elyu wrote: »

Counterplay to high heal builds is stack debuffs on them.
Counterplay to high resist builds is stack penetration and unblockable stuns (i.e fear/fossilise)
etc etc

Templars don't have debuff that can be used in 1v1, and thus cant counter high heal builds.
Templar don't have unblockable CC, and thus cant counter high resist builds.

Just saying @ZOS.

geonsocal · August 2017

some of my best build ideas come from these "nerf" threads...

paulsimonps · August 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

Elyu wrote: »

Counterplay to high heal builds is stack debuffs on them.
Counterplay to high resist builds is stack penetration and unblockable stuns (i.e fear/fossilise)
etc etc

Templars don't have debuff that can be used in 1v1, and thus cant counter high heal builds.
Templar don't have unblockable CC, and thus cant counter high resist builds.

Just saying @ZOS.

Templars have Major Defile in a class ability. They also have an ability with Minor Fracture and Breach.

Cinbri · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Elyu wrote: »

Counterplay to high heal builds is stack debuffs on them.
Counterplay to high resist builds is stack penetration and unblockable stuns (i.e fear/fossilise)
etc etc

Templars don't have debuff that can be used in 1v1, and thus cant counter high heal builds.
Templar don't have unblockable CC, and thus cant counter high resist builds.

Just saying @ZOS.

Templars have Major Defile in a class ability. They also have an ability with Minor Fracture and Breach.

Good luck with using this debuff class ability in 1v1 or anywhere beside Xv1. And will take even more luck to use this penetration ability as magicka Templar.
As said - no tools, which btw other classes have.

IcyDeadPeople · August 2017

It's not the category of oblivion damage, only specifically the decrease health weapon enchant.

There are other sources of oblivion damage, like prismatic onslaught weapon enchant, which are mitigated by Battle Spirit (cut in half), spell resistance, etc.

nine9six · August 2017

geonsocal wrote: »

some of my best build ideas come from these "nerf" threads...

TequilaFire · August 2017

Like Oblivion damage, infused and Torug's hasn't existed like forever.
I have builds using these for a long time and didn't know I was so strong! lmao
People on these forums get hold of something and attack and hold on like bulldogs till they get everybody believing the sky is falling.
Oh that's right they are Sorcs.

Gilvoth · August 2017

if you play a sorcerer or dragonight or templar, then you are not used to being killed in PvP, but, PvP is for killing other players. you will die, and us nightblades die on a constant basis, but after reading the responces in this thread, it makes me think that everyone commenting here just doesent want anyone to die in PvP.
well i got news for you, no matter what is in every single patch you are going to find that there is ways to kill other people in PvP. sorry, but that's what happens in PvP.

nine9six · August 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you play a <snip> templar, then you are not used to being killed in PvP

...I suck.

idk · August 2017

Elyu wrote: »

Then of course you'd successfully 1vX group then they would all equip shield breaker and light attack you to death, leaving you no counterplay (turned the tables too far the other way).

If they are reasonably skilled players and did not have shield breaker on what is the counter play? Often death except with the most skilled players.

Not saying anything about oblivion damage. It just seems everyone that calls for a nerf has the 1vX problem. I died from Radiant Oppression. It needs to be nerfed. 5 Templars were beaming me with that and a NB was hitting me with something else and I died cause RO is to OP. Seriously.

Waffennacht · August 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you play a sorcerer or dragonight or templar, then you are not used to being killed in PvP, but, PvP is for killing other players. you will die, and us nightblades die on a constant basis, but after reading the responces in this thread, it makes me think that everyone commenting here just doesent want anyone to die in PvP.
well i got news for you, no matter what is in every single patch you are going to find that there is ways to kill other people in PvP. sorry, but that's what happens in PvP.

I cloak outta your comment

Gilvoth · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you play a sorcerer or dragonight or templar, then you are not used to being killed in PvP, but, PvP is for killing other players. you will die, and us nightblades die on a constant basis, but after reading the responces in this thread, it makes me think that everyone commenting here just doesent want anyone to die in PvP.
well i got news for you, no matter what is in every single patch you are going to find that there is ways to kill other people in PvP. sorry, but that's what happens in PvP.

I cloak outta your comment

and while you cloak out of the comment, others are requesting stealth be removed while casting the hundreds of ways to force people out of cloak in-game where cloak does not work in combat because of the hundreds of ways to banish cloak while in combat.