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Is there a Warden meta?
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Jammer480✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...
The issue is that the 4 other classes can all run competitive end game content. Warden shouldn't be left out.
DK and templar can both support and DPS in end game. No reason why warden can't either.
NB pretty much falls in the same category...not many progression guilds will take a dps nb with them in trials. And a warden blows the NB away when it comes to tanking and is probably better as a healer.Edited by Jammer480 on August 10, 2017 5:57PMLivin' the dream...0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...
The issue is that the 4 other classes can all run competitive end game content. Warden shouldn't be left out.
DK and templar can both support and DPS in end game. No reason why warden can't either.
NB pretty much falls in the same category...not many progression guilds will take a dps nb with them in trials.
I agree that NB isn't in a good spot either, but they still parse considerably higher than magicka warden (they can definitely eclipse 35k).Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 10, 2017 6:01PM0 -
Betsararie✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well you shouldn't be taking a warden in as a dps class.
They make perfectly good tanks and healers. The class needs work but if it can be fine-tuned as a jack-of-all-trades support class, then it could fulfill a niche.0 -
Jammer480✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...
The issue is that the 4 other classes can all run competitive end game content. Warden shouldn't be left out.
DK and templar can both support and DPS in end game. No reason why warden can't either.
NB pretty much falls in the same category...not many progression guilds will take a dps nb with them in trials.
I agree that NB isn't in a good spot either, but they still parse considerably higher than magicka warden (they can definitely eclipse 35k).
That's very true, they do parse higher. But I'd say survivability is better with the warden. I'm not disputing that warden dps should not be made better. But they are certainly not a worthless class, as some would say, just because the dps is poor. I'd sooner say if all someone does is dps, the problem isn't the class...Edited by Jammer480 on August 10, 2017 6:07PMLivin' the dream...0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well you shouldn't be taking a warden in as a dps class.
Right, hence threads like these.
Some of us want to play warden as a DPS class. Why have offensive skills if the class can't be played as a DPS?
Making every class viable for end game DPS is easy as it just requires tweaking numbers. There is no reason for any class to be underperforming.
Making every class viable for support is a bit harder as HPS/damage blocked isn't the only stat that matters. Buffs, CC, burst heal potential, etc. play a part in viability as well (this requires re-designing skills). With DPS, all that matters is DPS. Other factors can make a class better or worse, but they are still viable as long as they hit minimum DPS benchmarks.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 10, 2017 6:25PM0 -
Bowser✭✭✭✭✭There is no Warden meta because there is no meta allowed in this glorious era of play how you want.0 -
Jammer480✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well you shouldn't be taking a warden in as a dps class.
Right, hence threads like these.
Some of us want to play warden as a DPS class. Why have offensive skills if the class can't be played as a DPS?
Making every class viable for end game DPS is easy as it just requires tweaking numbers. There is no reason for any class to be underperforming.
Making every class viable for support is a bit harder as HPS/damage blocked isn't the only stat that matters. Buffs, CC, etc. play a part in viability as well. With DPS, all that matters is DPS. Other factors can make a class better or worse, but they are still viable as long as they hit minimum DPS benchmarks.
Not arguing that it wouldn't be an easy fix...in theory anyway. My point is that it's not a worthless class simply because it can't run as a top dps in progression trial groups. It's not an argument that zos would even consider listening to, if they ever listen. It's a great class for many things, including vma and 99% of the game. Period.Edited by Jammer480 on August 10, 2017 6:29PMLivin' the dream...0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭You are using the word viable wrong. Be afraid, @cbaudersub17_ESO @hmsdragonfly and their grammar police is on the way.MLGProPlayer wrote: »The issue is that the 4 other classes can all run competitive end game content. Warden shouldn't be left out.
DK and templar can both support and DPS in end game. No reason why warden can't either. It doesn't need to be the best DPS class. It can be the worst. It just needs to be viable. If it was 1-2k DPS behind the other classes, it would be viable for end game. But at 5k+ behind, no chance.
See, but no one cares that NB has been left out for years. And they are still not in a good spot as you admitted. And Scathing mage uptime will be less in the next update.
And funny how you manage DK and templar and it is undisputable that sorc is great and dps. But where are NB? If they aren't in a good spot as DPS, surely they must be fine as healer or tank then? But no, they aren't. Those are way more rare. At least warden can tank or heal. In fact, warden healers aren't rare in trials.
I agree that they could be brought up so they are 1-5k behind in DPS, but should they really be complaining as if their complaint was somehow more valid than, say, NBs complaints? At least wardens can tank and heal. And right now #1 NA PC score is held by a warden. And regarding DPS? Again, deals enough to complete all content. Completed vhof with a warden DPS myself + a few HM pulls, so the score could be higher.
Competitive as a DPS? How many players are competitive? Should the game be balanced around them?
Warden's DPS is not fine because some of us want to play warden as a dps, but sorc's or NB's tanking is just fine, because you don't want to play them as tanks (when some others of us do)?Edited by Artis on August 10, 2017 6:40PM1 -
Jammer480✭✭✭You are using the word viable wrong. Be afraid, @cbaudersub17_ESO @hmsdragonfly and their grammar police is on the way.MLGProPlayer wrote: »The issue is that the 4 other classes can all run competitive end game content. Warden shouldn't be left out.
DK and templar can both support and DPS in end game. No reason why warden can't either. It doesn't need to be the best DPS class. It can be the worst. It just needs to be viable. If it was 1-2k DPS behind the other classes, it would be viable for end game. But at 5k+ behind, no chance.
See, but no one cares that NB has been left out for years. And they are still not in a good spot as you admitted. And Scathing mage uptime will be less in the next update.
And funny how you manage DK and templar and it is undisputable that sorc is great and dps. But where are NB? If they aren't in a good spot as DPS, surely they must be fine as healer or tank then? But no, they aren't. Those are way more rare. At least warden can tank or heal. In fact, warden healers aren't rare in trials.
I agree that they could be brought up so they are 1-5k behind in DPS, but should they really be complaining as if their complaint was somehow more valid than, say, NBs complaints? At least wardens can tank and heal. And right now #1 NA PC score is held by a warden. And regarding DPS? Again, deals enough to complete all content. Completed vhof with a warden DPS myself + a few HM pulls, so the score could be higher.
Competitive as a DPS? How many players are competitive? Should the game be balanced around them?
This exactly. If all one does is try for the top dps parse, maybe then the warden is worthless. But it's very sad if that's all that matters in this amazing game. I certainly beg zos to not make changes based on skeleton parses...Edited by Jammer480 on August 10, 2017 6:40PMLivin' the dream...0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well you shouldn't be taking a warden in as a dps class.
Right, hence threads like these.
Some of us want to play warden as a DPS class. Why have offensive skills if the class can't be played as a DPS?
Making every class viable for end game DPS is easy as it just requires tweaking numbers. There is no reason for any class to be underperforming.
Making every class viable for support is a bit harder as HPS/damage blocked isn't the only stat that matters. Buffs, CC, etc. play a part in viability as well. With DPS, all that matters is DPS. Other factors can make a class better or worse, but they are still viable as long as they hit minimum DPS benchmarks.
Not arguing that it wouldn't be an easy fix...in theory anyway. My point is that it's not a worthless class simply because it can't run as a top dps in progression trial groups. It's not an argument that zos would even consider listening to, if they ever listen. It's a great class for many things, including vma and 99% of the game. Period.
DPS is the most populous end game class (8/12 trial slots go to DPS, none of which can be filled by a magicka warden; although stam wardens should be able to manage). And as only the second best healer and tank, wardens are going to be extremely under-represented in progression trial settings.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 10, 2017 6:46PM0 -
Talrol✭✭✭I switched from Templar to Warden as my main character. I generally play healer exclusively. I can tell you that in Vet trials I have absolutely no problems keeping my group alive and sustained. I do not run the "meta" builds that I have seen posted in various places for my warden healer, I created my own build which works wonderful for all content. For our vet trials, having a templar healer and a warden healer running together we really rock it.
As for dps, I can do enough to clear solo content with no issues at all, but nowhere near the DPS that I can output on my pet sorc. I have considered gearing my warden like I do my pet sorc and trying a similar rotation and seeing what I can pull, but I don't expect to get anywhere near what I get on my sorc.
The main thing that I'd really like to see stopped is people stating that templars are worthless. We most certainly are not worthless (at least in PVE I don't PVP) and I have proven that in the runs that I do.1 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, it's a Warden. Not an Attacker or an Assault Unit or the Juggernaut, ***. It has been advertised as a "defensive spellcaster" before it got scrapped and an "off tank or off heal" during Morrowind.
Personally, I think they don't need high dps. Just high enough for solo stuff (vMSA) and PvP
If you want the Warden to be more competitive in PvE, I would suggest to stick to the theme and improve on the Warden's healing and tanking capabilities. Such as a better group buff, Arctic Wind rework,..."Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU0 -
Betsararie✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well you shouldn't be taking a warden in as a dps class.
Right, hence threads like these.
Some of us want to play warden as a DPS class. Why have offensive skills if the class can't be played as a DPS?
Making every class viable for end game DPS is easy as it just requires tweaking numbers. There is no reason for any class to be underperforming.
Making every class viable for support is a bit harder as HPS/damage blocked isn't the only stat that matters. Buffs, CC, burst heal potential, etc. play a part in viability as well (this requires re-designing skills). With DPS, all that matters is DPS. Other factors can make a class better or worse, but they are still viable as long as they hit minimum DPS benchmarks.
That's a fair opinion.
I still maintain the best way to create value for Warden is to allow it to fulfill various support niches that are unique to the class. Then they would be more viable in end game group content.
As it is now, someone like me is not going to see the benefit of bringing them in over Templar, which I feel provides a better support role.
If they become a top end dps class, then I would have no opposition to running with them (I don't now).0 -
Jammer480✭✭✭In response to the op, I'd agree that there really isn't a meta for the warden. There's actually quite a few options for builds, but Alcast would probably have the most commonly used build.Livin' the dream...0
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Artis✭✭✭✭✭
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This exactly. If all one does is try for the top dps parse, maybe then the warden is worthless. But it's very sad if that's all that matters in this amazing game. I certainly beg zos to not make changes around parses...
While you are right in general and got my general point, don't get me wrong - I'm not against bringing warden DPS on par with others. And NBs should be buffed too. And haven't seen templars in a while. I think all classes should parse within 5-10% of each other to begin with, (if played well) maybe different classes being on the top or bottom of that range depending on the encounter.
I also think all classes should be good in tanking/healing, just have different flavor/visuals. But no class should be preferred over others or left behind for everything. If they are - give them more damage (like NB, sorcs who aren't taken for anything but DPS. And not even that much for DPS in case of NB..).2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, it's a Warden. Not an Attacker or an Assault Unit or the Juggernaut, ***. It has been advertised as a "defensive spellcaster" before it got scrapped and an "off tank or off heal" during Morrowind.
Personally, I think they don't need high dps. Just high enough for solo stuff (vMSA) and PvP
If you want the Warden to be more competitive in PvE, I would suggest to stick to the theme and improve on the Warden's healing and tanking capabilities. Such as a better group buff, Arctic Wind rework,...
There are no "themes" in ESO. This is complete nonsense.
If so, then DKs should only be able to tank and templars only heal.
Every class should, in theory, be end game viable in every role. DPS is the easiest role to make every class viable in since the devs just need to tweak numbers on skills/passives. Support is trickier since HPS/damage blocked aren't the only stats that matter. However, all classes should be viable tanks/healers as well (just because it requires a bit more work, doesn't mean ZOS can neglect it).
Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 10, 2017 6:49PM1 -
Jammer480✭✭✭
This exactly. If all one does is try for the top dps parse, maybe then the warden is worthless. But it's very sad if that's all that matters in this amazing game. I certainly beg zos to not make changes around parses...
While you are right in general and got my general point, don't get me wrong - I'm not against bringing warden DPS on par with others. And NBs should be buffed too. And haven't seen templars in a while. I think all classes should parse within 5-10% of each other to begin with, (if played well) maybe different classes being on the top or bottom of that range depending on the encounter.
I also think all classes should be good in tanking/healing, just have different flavor/visuals. But no class should be preferred over others or left behind for everything. If they are - give them more damage (like NB, sorcs who aren't taken for anything but DPS. And not even that much for DPS in case of NB..).
Agreed, I don't think I ever said the warden dps shouldn't be on par with other classes. My point was that dps should not be the sole determining factor in saying something is worthless. The warden is far from worthless. I just want the op to give it a try and ignore the "top dps" naysayers. LolLivin' the dream...0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭
@MLGProPlayer does "etc" include efficient?MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Viable, competitive, effective, etc. all mean the same thing. Magicka warden is a positively awful class at the moment. By far the weakest in the entire game. They are a liability in trials.
@hmsdragonfly @cbaudersub17_ESO see? More people using effective, viable as synonyms to competitive, i.e. optimal. Not just getting the desired result. And your "final answer" didn't answer anything, that's not what I asked at all. Moreover, it's self-contradictory, because in the end you say you completely agree with Vaoh, when he uses the word "effective" as a synonym to the word "competitive", i.e. optimal. So then everything sub-optimal is ineffective? Then nontemplar healer are ineffective together with warden DPS and I'd agree. But for some reason you have a double standard here and the former is effective and the latter isn't effective for you.
And the video clearly shows that the desired result is achieved, then the head is a a hammering tool? No, we know it's not. Because something being a hammering/healing/DPS tool is defined by it's superiority to other tools, it's designed for this specific task and is optimal compared to other options. Which makes a hammer a hammering tool and head - not a hammering tool EVEN though it's effective and get's the job done. Similarly - there are healer classes and dps classes, even though all classes can heal and deal just enough DPS. Just some are optimal and others are not. But it's ok, take your time to answer. I'll ask you in another thread where it's appropriate later.
@cbaudersub17_ESO how come trying to redefine? I just copypasted the definition from the Oxford dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/viable where am I wrong?
It is viable, just not optimal. Right, @hmsdragonfly ? The oxford definition is linked just above.Being 5k+ dps behind all other magicka DPS classes, and 10-15k behind stamina classes is not at all viable.
p.s. OP, just wait until Monday for the new update and then a couple of weeks until people see what works. The relative difference of warden's DPS and other classes' DPS might change.
Vaoh's point is that Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS by the community, that is what I am agreeing on. I use the word "effective", but if you disagree with the use of that word, it's irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that Warden isn't performing as well as expected by the community and that's what everyone here believes. You are turning this whole thread into your Epeen measuring contest where you pick fights against everyone, argue against everyone's choice of words, "no you should use the word "competitive" no you should use the word "efficent" no you should use the word "viable" blah blah" that's a petty thing to do.
Unless you are going to argue against what people here believe, Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS, stop these petty catfights about what words should be used. Use whatever word you want. You get everyone's idea.cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »: so now this person is also wanting to redefine or misuse the word 'viable'? Saw that I got hurty feeling tagged, too.
Well at least I tried.Edited by hmsdragonfly on August 10, 2017 7:10PMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...
Of course it's not worthless, Warden isn't performing as well as it should in term of DPS. People expect more. The class is performing well in the other 2 roles.
Edited by hmsdragonfly on August 10, 2017 7:18PMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
Jammer480✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...
Of course it's not worthless, Warden isn't performing as well as it should in term of DPS. People expect more. The class is performing well in the other 2 roles.
Agreed. But certain posts here basically said to delete the warden based on sub par dps parses. It was my lame attempt to tell the op to ignore them. LolLivin' the dream...0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...
Of course it's not worthless, Warden isn't performing as well as it should in term of DPS. People expect more. The class is performing well in the other 2 roles.
Agreed. But certain posts here basically said to delete the warden based on sub par dps parses. It was my lame attempt to tell the op to ignore them. Lol
Some people are just frustrated :P Don't mind them :PAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
cbaudersub17_ESO✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
Well at least I tried.
You did.... But the lesson of 'context', including defining one's goal (e.g., complete content, fulfill role, or do X amount of DPS, be part of mega META leaderboard group, or etc.), was apparently missed entirely. Take some pride in the apparent bruising
. Edited by cbaudersub17_ESO on August 10, 2017 7:23PM0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
Vaoh's point is that Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS by the community, that is what I am agreeing on. I use the word "effective", but if you disagree with the use of that word, it's irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that Warden isn't performing as well as expected by the community and that's what everyone here believes. You are turning this whole thread into your Epeen measuring contest where you pick fights against everyone, argue against everyone's choice of words, "no you should use the word "competitive" no you should use the word "efficent" no you should use the word "viable" blah blah" that's a petty thing to do.
Unless you are going to argue against what people here believe, Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS, stop these petty catfights about what words should be used. Use whatever word you want. You get everyone's idea.
That changes everything after all that show you started about definitions. If you didn't get it yet, I asked them about "efficient" to show you more examples: people use effective and efficient as synonyms colloquially, no matter what your oxford definition says. I'm not picking fights against them, I'm using them as witnesses.
"Expected by community"? That's not relevant. Content sets requirements to DPS. And wardens demonstrably have enough to complete even the hardest content. They are suboptimal though and are weaker than others. Just like not having a templar healer is suboptimal for high score runs. Yet, you call latter effective, but agree that former are not effective. Even though Vaoh said "not effective as" meaning it's not binary and not just about getting the job done - it's effective, but just not competitive with others, not as good as others. "Argue against what people here believe"? People believed non templar healers aren't optimal as expected by community with a bar set by templars, yet called them effective.
It's not a petty thing to do, it's demonstrating your hypocrisy very clearly. See more right below.
And here is more. @cbaudersub17_ESO said that I am the one redefining/misusing the word 'viable', when I used it exactly according to your favorite Oxford dictionary. Yet, you keep agreeing with him and not correcting him, when he's wrong. The definition is right here for you to see btw https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/viable. You need to fix that.hmsdragonfly wrote: »cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »: so now this person is also wanting to redefine or misuse the word 'viable'? Saw that I got hurty feeling tagged, too.
Well at least I tried.
Same logic applies to NB, sorc, DK healers. They aren't performing as well in terms of the score you can get with them in the group. How are they effective and warden not?hmsdragonfly wrote: »Of course it's not worthless, Warden isn't performing as well as it should in term of DPS. People expect more. The class is performing well in the other 2 roles.cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »
Well at least I tried.
You did.... But the lesson of 'context', including defining one's goal (e.g., complete content, fulfill role, or do X amount of DPS, be part of mega META leaderboard group, or etc.), was apparently missed entirely. Take some pride in the apparent bruising .
Nope, not relevant here. We were talking about optimized groups all this time- non templars were called effective. Comparing suboptimal and optimal performances defines what's optimal. A hammer is a hammering tool and the head or a microscope aren't because the hammer is optimal. But according to @hmsdragonfly everything is a hammering tool, just not optimal. (Everything is a tank/healer/dps class, just not all classes are optimal).Edited by Artis on August 10, 2017 8:11PM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Again, make artic blast or whatever it's called a viable dps ability, boom end game viable.
5k dps you say? Have that ability do 2k tooltip (like LL) and I think it's actually gonna be taken to trials0 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well, it's a Warden. Not an Attacker or an Assault Unit or the Juggernaut, ***. It has been advertised as a "defensive spellcaster" before it got scrapped and an "off tank or off heal" during Morrowind.
Personally, I think they don't need high dps. Just high enough for solo stuff (vMSA) and PvP
If you want the Warden to be more competitive in PvE, I would suggest to stick to the theme and improve on the Warden's healing and tanking capabilities. Such as a better group buff, Arctic Wind rework,...
There are no "themes" in ESO. This is complete nonsense.
If so, then DKs should only be able to tank and templars only heal.
Not true: every class has a theme, a certain flavor to it, and was created with a specific role in mind. The Warden's role was even given to us in an ESO Live, that of an Off-Tank or Off-Heal.
Right now though, the Warden is struggling somewhat to find its place. It's without a doubt an excellent healer and a solid tank, and these are the aspects that ZOS should focus on, the role it was created for, so that the Warden is more accepted into groups as a healer or a tank.
Raising the DPS of the Warden should definitely be low priority (or be on the "Not to do"-list)"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well, it's a Warden. Not an Attacker or an Assault Unit or the Juggernaut, ***. It has been advertised as a "defensive spellcaster" before it got scrapped and an "off tank or off heal" during Morrowind.
Personally, I think they don't need high dps. Just high enough for solo stuff (vMSA) and PvP
If you want the Warden to be more competitive in PvE, I would suggest to stick to the theme and improve on the Warden's healing and tanking capabilities. Such as a better group buff, Arctic Wind rework,...
There are no "themes" in ESO. This is complete nonsense.
If so, then DKs should only be able to tank and templars only heal.
Not true: every class has a theme, a certain flavor to it, and was created with a specific role in mind. The Warden's role was even given to us in an ESO Live, that of an Off-Tank or Off-Heal.
Right now though, the Warden is struggling somewhat to find its place. It's without a doubt an excellent healer and a solid tank, and these are the aspects that ZOS should focus on, the role it was created for, so that the Warden is more accepted into groups as a healer or a tank.
Raising the DPS of the Warden should definitely be low priority (or be on the "Not to do"-list)
Again, why can every class DPS then, except magicka warden? "Play as you want" is literally the core design philosophy of this game. ZOS uses that exact line to market the game (it's on the box for the game).
If we had defined class roles, then DKs would only be able to tank and templars would only be able to heal. Which of course isn't the case, and your argument is nonsense.
A class can have a role it's better at. But it doesn't mean it needs to be useless in every other role. Every class should be viable in every role.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 10, 2017 9:03PM0 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well, it's a Warden. Not an Attacker or an Assault Unit or the Juggernaut, ***. It has been advertised as a "defensive spellcaster" before it got scrapped and an "off tank or off heal" during Morrowind.
Personally, I think they don't need high dps. Just high enough for solo stuff (vMSA) and PvP
If you want the Warden to be more competitive in PvE, I would suggest to stick to the theme and improve on the Warden's healing and tanking capabilities. Such as a better group buff, Arctic Wind rework,...
There are no "themes" in ESO. This is complete nonsense.
If so, then DKs should only be able to tank and templars only heal.
Not true: every class has a theme, a certain flavor to it, and was created with a specific role in mind. The Warden's role was even given to us in an ESO Live, that of an Off-Tank or Off-Heal.
Right now though, the Warden is struggling somewhat to find its place. It's without a doubt an excellent healer and a solid tank, and these are the aspects that ZOS should focus on, the role it was created for, so that the Warden is more accepted into groups as a healer or a tank.
Raising the DPS of the Warden should definitely be low priority (or be on the "Not to do"-list)
Again, why can every class DPS then, except warden? "Play as you want" is literally the core design philosophy of this game. ZOS literally uses that line to market the game.
If we had defined class roles, then DKs would only be able to tank and templars would only be able to heal. Which of course isn't the case, and your argument is nonsense.
A class can have a role it's better at. But it doesn't mean it needs to be useless in every other role. Every class should be viable in every role.
Can every class heal as well as a Templar? Can every class tank as well as a DK? Answer is most definitely no. Marketing is only used to attract people, it doesn't mean it's actually true. You can play whatever you want just fine, but it's not going to be as effective as the real deal
I never said that classes can do only 1 thing, I said they were created with a specific role in mind. So stop trying to put down my arguments as "nonsense" by putting words in my mouth."Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »
Vaoh's point is that Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS by the community, that is what I am agreeing on. I use the word "effective", but if you disagree with the use of that word, it's irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that Warden isn't performing as well as expected by the community and that's what everyone here believes. You are turning this whole thread into your Epeen measuring contest where you pick fights against everyone, argue against everyone's choice of words, "no you should use the word "competitive" no you should use the word "efficent" no you should use the word "viable" blah blah" that's a petty thing to do.
Unless you are going to argue against what people here believe, Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS, stop these petty catfights about what words should be used. Use whatever word you want. You get everyone's idea.
That changes everything after all that show you started about definitions. If you didn't get it yet, I asked them about "efficient" to show you more examples: people use effective and efficient as synonyms colloquially, no matter what your oxford definition says. I'm not picking fights against them, I'm using them as witnesses.
"Expected by community"? That's not relevant. Content sets requirements to DPS. And wardens demonstrably have enough to complete even the hardest content. They are suboptimal though and are weaker than others. Just like not having a templar healer is suboptimal for high score runs. Yet, you call latter effective, but agree that former are not effective. Even though Vaoh said "not effective as" meaning it's not binary and not just about getting the job done - it's effective, but just not competitive with others, not as good as others. "Argue against what people here believe"? People believed non templar healers aren't optimal as expected by community with a bar set by templars, yet called them effective.
It's not a petty thing to do, it's demonstrating your hypocrisy very clearly. See more right below.
And here is more. @cbaudersub17_ESO said that I am the one redefining/misusing the word 'viable', when I used it exactly according to your favorite Oxford dictionary. Yet, you keep agreeing with him and not correcting him, when he's wrong. The definition is right here for you to see btw https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/viable. You need to fix that.hmsdragonfly wrote: »cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »: so now this person is also wanting to redefine or misuse the word 'viable'? Saw that I got hurty feeling tagged, too.
Well at least I tried.
Same logic applies to NB, sorc, DK healers. They aren't performing as well in terms of the score you can get with them in the group. How are they effective and warden not?hmsdragonfly wrote: »Of course it's not worthless, Warden isn't performing as well as it should in term of DPS. People expect more. The class is performing well in the other 2 roles.cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »
Well at least I tried.
You did.... But the lesson of 'context', including defining one's goal (e.g., complete content, fulfill role, or do X amount of DPS, be part of mega META leaderboard group, or etc.), was apparently missed entirely. Take some pride in the apparent bruising .
Nope, not relevant here. We were talking about optimized groups all this time- non templars were called effective. Comparing suboptimal and optimal performances defines what's optimal. A hammer is a hammering tool and the head or a microscope aren't because the hammer is optimal. But according to @hmsdragonfly everything is a hammering tool, just not optimal. (Everything is a tank/healer/dps class, just not all classes are optimal).
We know how this is going. You will continue to force the argument in the direction that which "word" should be used, claiming that it's the only important thing here despite the fact that I have said many time that you can use whatever word you want, fact is that Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS by the community, that is what I am agreeing on. I have said I use the word "effective", but if you disagree with the use of that word, use others, that's fine, you get everyone's idea that Warden isn't performing as well as expected by the community and that's what everyone here believes.
Unless you are going to argue against what people here believe, Warden isn't performing as well as expected in term of DPS, use whatever word you want. You get everyone's idea.
NB, sorc, DK healers are in the same situation as NB, DK and Templar DDs. The performance gap between Templar and non-Templar healers is as small as the performance gap between Sorc and non-Sorc DDs. They are performing as well as people expected:
All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.
(Again, if you don't agree with the use of the word effective, use any word you want)
You talk about score, if a Templar healer picks up a DK healer for example, he will end up having a roughly similar score, like how if a Sorc DD picks up a Templar DD (given that he is also proficient at Templar's rotation) he will end up having a similar score because DK's DPS is not far behind. But if a Sorc DD picks up a Warden DD, it's a RIP, (given that the numbers here are to be believed).
The DPS pulled by the DD affects the score greatly (faster completion), while for healers, it only affects the score if
1) The healers don't pull enough HPS so people die - which doesn't happen because all classes can pull enough HPS and Templar isn't even the one who can pull the highest HPS, as pulling the Highest HPS is irrelevant to the score.
2) The healers can't feed resources to the group (all classes can do that), they can't cast Combat Prayer to boost the DPS (all classes can do that), they can't blow Warhorn (all classes can do that), they don't have a burst heal to save people in scary situation (all classes can do that).
We good?Edited by hmsdragonfly on August 10, 2017 10:03PMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Well, it's a Warden. Not an Attacker or an Assault Unit or the Juggernaut, ***. It has been advertised as a "defensive spellcaster" before it got scrapped and an "off tank or off heal" during Morrowind.
Personally, I think they don't need high dps. Just high enough for solo stuff (vMSA) and PvP
If you want the Warden to be more competitive in PvE, I would suggest to stick to the theme and improve on the Warden's healing and tanking capabilities. Such as a better group buff, Arctic Wind rework,...
There are no "themes" in ESO. This is complete nonsense.
If so, then DKs should only be able to tank and templars only heal.
Not true: every class has a theme, a certain flavor to it, and was created with a specific role in mind. The Warden's role was even given to us in an ESO Live, that of an Off-Tank or Off-Heal.
Right now though, the Warden is struggling somewhat to find its place. It's without a doubt an excellent healer and a solid tank, and these are the aspects that ZOS should focus on, the role it was created for, so that the Warden is more accepted into groups as a healer or a tank.
Raising the DPS of the Warden should definitely be low priority (or be on the "Not to do"-list)
Again, why can every class DPS then, except warden? "Play as you want" is literally the core design philosophy of this game. ZOS literally uses that line to market the game.
If we had defined class roles, then DKs would only be able to tank and templars would only be able to heal. Which of course isn't the case, and your argument is nonsense.
A class can have a role it's better at. But it doesn't mean it needs to be useless in every other role. Every class should be viable in every role.
Can every class heal as well as a Templar? Can every class tank as well as a DK? Answer is most definitely no. Marketing is only used to attract people, it doesn't mean it's actually true. You can play whatever you want just fine, but it's not going to be as effective as the real deal
I never said that classes can do only 1 thing, I said they were created with a specific role in mind. So stop trying to put down my arguments as "nonsense" by putting words in my mouth.
Yeah all classes can heal almost as well as Templars. The difference is as small as the gap between Sorc and DK, Templar and NB DDs.
Non-DK tanks definitely need buffs.
This is my view about it:hmsdragonfly wrote: »
The job of a DD is to pull the highest DPS number possible to complete the content. A DD kills things with 10 DPS is not being "effective", as in, he is not producing a desired or intended result. Let's say for example, if all classes can pull roughly 36k DPS, but Warden can only pull 30k DPS with the current toolkit, Wardens don't have the toolkit needed to be effective in DPSing compared to other classes, because the result Warden produces is clearly not desirable.
But, if Sorcs can pull 38k and DKs pull 37k, while DKs aren't producing the best result, they are producing a desired result, hence they are effective at what they are doing.
Now we take a look at healers. All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS and pulling the highest HPS is irrelevant to everything anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.
OK, tanks are next.
- Nightblade in the current states is an at best situational and at worst ineffective tank class. The job of a tank is to hold aggro, CC mobs, apply debuff, blow Warhorn and stay alive. Nightblade tanks have troubles staying alive in vet trials and their crowd control's capability is questionable. Although they are not useless because Sap tanking does work well in 4-man content, overall they just fall short.
- Sorc tanks, on the other hand, are extremely underrated (I am quoting Gilliam The Rouge here). They have all the tools needed to tank well, they have good sustain, good CC, cheap ults, I don't know why people don't utilize them more especially when top tier theorycrafters like Gilliam do see their potential. In PvP, Encase + Negate Sorc tanks are very scary and in a well coordinated group, they have potential to shine.
- Templar is in a pretty funny situation. They shine in 4-man content like Nightblade, with a Templar tank, people can run 3 DDs and don't need a healer. In PvP, they are the best tanks imo, outperform DKs by far. Templar tank/healbot is the most annoying thing and it's a nightmare to any 1vXer because not only you can't kill them, you can't kill their friends either because they just cast one BoL and their friends go back to full health. But, in vet trials, they are so bad because of their CC's capability is non-existent since the removal of stun from spear shard, and their stamina management is straight-up bad.
- We don't need to talk about DK and Warden tanks because we all know that they are good.
So what's not a DPS class?
A class is not a DPS class if the class doesn't have access to damage dealing abilities.
A class is not a tank class if the class doesn't have access to tanking abilities.
A class is not a healer class if the class doesn't have access to healing abilities.
So, there's no such thing as a DPS/Healer/Tank class, because they are all built to do all three, but, there are effective DPS/Healer/Tank class and there are ineffective DPS/Healer/Tank class.
+ Nightblade is an effective DPS class (if the rumours are true, but testing not done), an effective Healer class and an ineffective Tank class.
+ Sorc is the best DPS class, an effective Healer class (but also the worst Healer class) and an extremely underrated Tank class.
+ Templar is an effective DPS class, the best Healer class, and a situational Tank class (outshines DK in PvP and 4-man content, DLC and DSA included, but falls short in vet trials).
+Dragonknight is an effective DPS class, an effective healer class, and the best Tank class.
+ Warden is an ineffective DPS class (if the numbers here are to be believed), the second best Healer class, and an effective Tank class.
Edited by hmsdragonfly on August 10, 2017 9:44PMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@hmsdragonfly I don't disagree with the use of that word. You're the one who used to say that this word is binary and is about getting the job done. I always said it was more loose, otherwise you'd need to agree that head is a hammering tool.
The gap between DK tanks and other tanks, though, is not small. And if the goal of DPS is to pull the highest possible numbers and complete content as fast as possible, that would automatically mean that only top classes are effective because even a small gap would mean that that DPS doesn't get the job done - doesn't pull highest numbers possible, which is not the case.
And of course I get the idea that warden isn't performing as well as others. That's just one more example proving my other point - there ARE healer/tank/dps classes. Currently the list of DPS classes doesn't include warden, because there's no reason to bring it.
And you're forgetting that templar healers deal some damage with shards + have an option to use their beam if needed to make a boss die even faster.
The point is - the difference is qualitative not quantitative. If the job is to pull highest numbers/get highest scores - then even a small gap matters by definition. If not and the job is to clear any content including the hardest one - the wardens would be effective. And in both cases - the existence of dps/healer/tank classes can be postulated simply because some tools are better than others, even though all of them can be effective (see hammer vs head).
And sure, we good 0