What if "Twin Blade and Blunt" and "Heavy Weapons" only Augmented Heavy Attacks?

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

Could it make gameplay a bit simpler? could it reduce the amount of overhead the server has to deal with? What do you think?

Ex:

Twin Blade and Blunt:
Each Sword Causes your Heavy Attacks to deal 15% more damage
Each Dagger Reduces Heavy Attack Charge time by 0.3 Seconds
Each Axe Causes your Heavy Attacks to deal [x] Additional Bleed Damage over 6 seconds
Each Mace Causes your Heavy Attacks to ignore 40% of the Targets Physical Resistance (Probably needs work)

Heavy Weapons:
Greatswords increase Heavy Attack Damage by 20%
Greataxes cause your Primary Heavy Attack Target to take [x] Bleed Damage over 6 seconds
Warhammers cause your Heavy Attacks to ignore 80% of the Targets Physical Resistance (Probably needs work)

(These numbers are all just as an example)

CyrusArya · August 2017

I think you need to stop making asinine polls every single time an idea pops in your head. These passives are fine and give each weapon type a unique edge. They add to play style and build diversity in many ways. As can be said to probably 99% of the unnecessary polls you make....no need to fix what aint broke.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@CyrusArya

Eh, skip the damned poll then, why'd you even respond?

While they do give the weapons a unique edge, they are also incorporated in every attack calculation that you perform while using said weapon. Cutting it down to only incorporate them solely into light(?) and heavy attacks might improve performance.

Not to mention the Axe/Greataxe Passive is Bugged(?) currently. So the "Uniqueness" is shoddy.

The Axe Bleed Ticks on the 2nd, 4th, and the 6th second.
If a player manages to hit the 16% within 2 seconds after an initial proc of the bleed, the bleed is overwritten and the timer resets, so you lose out on some damage. This is either a bug or "working as intended".
This could be solved by treating it as an enchantment (which would require more checks reducing performance), or this could be solved by having the damage spread over 4 damage ticks: 0, 2, 4, 6. Which would increase the overall DPS possible with players using Axes and would then require the bleed damage to be nerfed in some fashion.

aaisoaho · August 2017

Actually this would not improve performance. In your idea, the bleed is still there (needs to be calculated), damage bonus is not a huge thing to calculate and by cutting heavy attack charge time instead of crit, you're gonna cause more calculations, since crit is calculated as a single if and a shorter charge means more attacks per time period.

IMO the passives are good the way they are, I don't think stam classes needs nerfing.

EDIT: To clarify, algorithms' performances are compared on their simplified form, do they take N time to run or N*N time to run? This form does not change by your idea, it'd still need N time to run. (Because I don't see why there would be any form of loops in ESO's damage calculations) If this would remove some sort of loop (for, while, do while, recursive etc), it'd improve the performance.

CyrusArya · August 2017

Because first of all, making the affects only apply to heavy attacks is severely limiting and cuts down the scope of weapons. It blurs the lines and makes the distinction between weapon types much less important. Secondly, your change to twin blade and blunt instantly kills all magicka builds that use dual wield, forcing em all to run sword and board or a staff.

All cus you think it 'might' improve server performance in a noticeable way. Your enthusiasm might be something appreciable, but literally all your suggestions are half baked and thats what puts people off.

idk · August 2017

I think it's clear what would happen. No real discussion needed.

Daggers, swords and mace become the poor mans weapons as the axe would be the only choice that remains due to the bleads would increase damage more than the others could hope to.

ookami007 · August 2017

Are you like... a crazy person?

Beardimus · August 2017

Flat NO. would be the final nail.(of about 50) in DW Mag Sorc coffin. Therein this is technically another Nerf Sorc thread.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because first of all, making the affects only apply to heavy attacks is severely limiting and cuts down the scope of weapons. It blurs the lines and makes the distinction between weapon types much less important. Secondly, your change to twin blade and blunt instantly kills all magicka builds that use dual wield, forcing em all to run sword and board or a staff.

So. DW swords no longer grant a universal 5% damage bonus to be abused by Class Abilities. Instead, they increase Heavy Attack Damage. Sword and shield is okay, but since it only gives Weapon Damage it only serves as the catalyst for 2 5-piece sets and increased Defence. Now all that's left for Magicka users is a Single Staff that only counts as one set piece. Oh boy, such a travesty. Wouldn't it be amazing if Mag got the same love as stam in terms of set utility? Why not make it count as two set pieces! And why stop there? Bow, and 2H should see some love. You've already got the "Set Bonus" of maelstrom weapons on 2H,Staff, and Bow, so why relegate quite a few end game builds to only the vMA Staff and Bow?.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Yeah, it's pretty obvious. I really think that axes need a slight nerf.

@Beardimus

I have one question for you: as a DW Mag Sorc, do you actually use any of the DW abilities? Or is it just for the extra set bonus and extra Enchantment?

@ookami007
Probably.

Beardimus · August 2017

@Avran_Sylt no I don't use the abilities, they are all stamina, I use light / heavy attacks, enjoy the style more than a wizard with wands, helps me know what damn bar IM on when it lags, and yew offers extra set piece.

It's a niche setup now. Granted, but I an many others have persevered with it despite destro having many advantages. To finally knock.another nail in would be pointless, variety is good in a game like this..

Plus Stam DW player I know would also hate ur suggested change.

Berenhir · August 2017

OP has intellectual diarrhea, someone call a doctor!

Beardimus · August 2017

Oh and @Avran_Sylt vMA don't have a set pc bonus. It's an enchant..

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@Beardimus

So you use it for the style, and the stats, but don't use any of the given abilities, and as you say use Light and Heavy Attacks.

Why is all the diversity for DW stemming from just one sole passive? I do want to make it more diverse, but I think that the stat bonuses from weapon type are far too general (especially from the swords) to allow any other type of diversification ... Ugh, I see why this is half-baked. I need to readjust what it is I'm actually going for.

Also, show me a single enchantment that does as much as Thunderous Volley, then I'll consider them 'just' enchantments.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

OP has intellectual diarrhea, someone call a doctor!

Lol, some days it feels like my brain just goes mush. *Blarrrgh I slouch on couch*

Beardimus · August 2017

It reads like you are trying to.fox something that isn't broken.. One passive controls the huge differences between Destro staffs, the current DW one needed to allow Mag builds some use out of it. But actually the way damage is calculated the damage is UP using DW not just from the passive but the way its calculated.

Regardless I'm still usure what ur trying but I certainly don't want Mag Sorc to only have stages as option

Maybe you misunderstand, vMA weapons do nothing special at all, they are just basic it's the OP enchants that do all the work (and make most of the weapons.BIS) Reset the emchant and you remder a vMA weopon useless.

Kanar · August 2017

It's probably best if players don't bother to make suggestions on how to optimize the server performance.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@Kanar Perhaps

@Beardimus
Well, since you can't create these enchantments, I look at them as a "set" enchantment.

idk · August 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because first of all, making the affects only apply to heavy attacks is severely limiting and cuts down the scope of weapons. It blurs the lines and makes the distinction between weapon types much less important. Secondly, your change to twin blade and blunt instantly kills all magicka builds that use dual wield, forcing em all to run sword and board or a staff.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious. I really think that axes need a slight nerf.

The only thing that needs to be nerfed in this conversation is the idea behind the question in the poll. It is not needed, not wanted and makes the passive virtually pointless, hence it is a bad idea.

WuffyCerulei · August 2017

My magplar benefits from Twin blunt and blade. Plz no.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@Kanar
Right, better off complaining about how everything is broken, it's the end of the world, and how Zo$ is scheming yet again.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
The current passives are out of sight, out of mind. Making them 'Active' in a sense would provide a little bit more flair. In terms of damage output they should be similar in number, but different in application. Daggers would deal less damage than all of them, but be able to recuperate from the heavy attack the fastest, weaving in more heavy attacks to your rotation. Axes would deal lower initial damage, but the bleed would top it off in comparison to both, but be more focused on having spaced heavy attacks.Swords would be all about the largest burst damage, staying the standard speed but having the highest instant damage. Maces are once again the most annoying to balance, as a % reduction is very situational but the ignored % would be based off of the amount that the others increase their damage by (probably a bit more too).

This could stay in the Heavy Attacks, or be expanded upon with Light Attacks to make things even more interesting.

@WuffyCerulei
If you magplar is benefiting from just the extra slot and the generalized % damage bonus of swords, then there is a problem with how magicka weapons are being treated, and their overall variety.

WuffyCerulei · August 2017

@Avran_Sylt Unfortunately I can't do much about the whole magplars using dual wield. The extra spell damage, set slot, and enchant are too good to pass up on a melee magplar. I guess magDKs could go either way, but magdens, magsorcs, and magblades are all ranged, so dual wield is not optimal for them.

idk · August 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
The current passives are out of sight, out of mind. Making them 'Active' in a sense would provide a little bit more flair. In terms of damage output they should be similar in number, but different in application. Daggers would deal less damage than all of them, but be able to recuperate from the heavy attack the fastest, weaving in more heavy attacks to your rotation. Axes would deal lower initial damage, but the bleed would top it off in comparison to both, but be more focused on having spaced heavy attacks.Swords would be all about the largest burst damage, staying the standard speed but having the highest instant damage. Maces are once again the most annoying to balance, as a % reduction is very situational but the ignored % would be based off of the amount that the others increase their damage by (probably a bit more too).

This could stay in the Heavy Attacks, or be expanded upon with Light Attacks to make things even more interesting.

You have demonstrated nor explained any aspect of this statement making them empty words meaning the reply above is nothing more than empty words. If you are going to deal with such an idea better damned well do more than merely as a few questions in the OP and reply with this nonsense.

Qbiken · August 2017

I say no because I don´t like the "Heavy attack" meta (which never really happen, but you get my Point I Think). I like the way they work at the moment. Feels unique each weapontype and I like it

FakeFox · August 2017

It would render it useless for like 60% of builds using those weapons and kill dual wield magicka builds in the process.

Hurika · August 2017

Funny you only suggested it for the stamina weapons......

So for casters would we do the same for Ancient Knowledge? I mean if you want to make things "simpler" and "reduce overhead" lets not limit it just to nerfing stamina after all. Unless that is your intent.

Gain bonus effects based on your staff type.
Flame Staff increases your damage done with single target abilities by 8%
Lightning Staff increases your damamge done with area of effect abilities by 8%
Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%

Overhead is caused by aoe's that proc aoe's that proc aoes that... and you do a crap load of player location/distance/immunity. Aoe aoe that affects 6 people then each of those has a proc that can affect 6 people is 6*(6*6) that's a lot of calculations that can occur very fast...now imagine 50 AD/EP/DC all in close proximity spamming AOEs. Why do you think their answer to lag is always "spread out". But I think this is just a thinly veiled nerf request anyway.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

... The 'Demonstration' Is players thinking about how they use their own rotations, and weather or not any of the 'words' could be fitted into what they do. Sure, I could make videos of myself performing all of these rotations and what not hand feed every and all type of playstyle and showing the pros/cons of each. However, I do not have the time for that.

All your responses, have been empty generalizations that never actually point to something specific! (If I stopped here, this is exactly what your comments are).

The Axe Bleed was a fair point, and I wish to exclude it from the previous statement. However your response about it being unneeded don't really have that much value. The passive itself is broken when it comes to one of the weapons it influences, the general %damage increase of the swords makes it the de-facto choice for any magDW restricting Diversity. If the Heavy attack was changed, vould not a new build arise that functions off of DK molten armaments, or builds using skoria with the Axe? I Understand that DW swords offer mages an interesting option when it comes to gearing, but why can they not do the same with a weapon that restores Magicka to them on heavy attack? I believe that there is a failure there when it comes to mages and their selection of gear.

And onto the "empty statement". The OP is the start to a DIALOGUE about the subject, it serves to act as a catalyst. More of the details will be brought up and polished during the coming conversation, which is exactly what this is These polls are not meant to be entirely fleshed out.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@Hurika

Yeah, That abysmal bandage fix for staves to make them more 'interesting' due to a lack of an additional 5-piece is not something I'm fond of.

idk · August 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

... The 'Demonstration' Is players thinking about how they use their own rotations, and weather or not any of the 'words' could be fitted into what they do. Sure, I could make videos of myself performing all of these rotations and what not hand feed every and all type of playstyle and showing the pros/cons of each. However, I do not have the time for that.
All your responses, have been empty generalizations that never actually point to something specific! (If I stopped here, this is exactly what your comments are).

The Axe Bleed was a fair point, and I wish to exclude it from the previous statement. However your response about it being unneeded don't really have that much value. The passive itself is broken when it comes to one of the weapons it influences, the general %damage increase of the swords makes it the de-facto choice for any magDW restricting Diversity. If the Heavy attack was changed, vould not a new build arise that functions off of DK molten armaments, or builds using skoria with the Axe? I Understand that DW swords offer mages an interesting option when it comes to gearing, but why can they not do the same with a weapon that restores Magicka to them on heavy attack? I believe that there is a failure there when it comes to mages and their selection of gear.

And onto the "empty statement". The OP is the start to a DIALOGUE about the subject, it serves to act as a catalyst. More of the details will be brought up and polished during the coming conversation, which is exactly what this is These polls are not meant to be entirely fleshed out.

No. You open up merely with some questions.

Then you reply to critique with some reasons but offer zero information to suport those reasons.

Your follow up is a series of words that are an attempt to support your reasons but are really empty words.

This is probably one of your laziest threads ever.

ekaploe · August 2017

The entire premise of this poll is absurd as the passive is under the dual wield skill line. Two Handed weapons have their own passive, so why would they get the benefit of "twin blade?" Think it though before you make a poll.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
This is why I think it's best making ability passives a bit more simple:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365102/twin-blade-and-blunt-axe-bleed-whirlwind-whirling-proc-it-steel-tornado-doesnt#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/364835/dw-rapid-strikes-is-considered-a-melee-attack-by-vipers-sting#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/363157/using-the-2h-forceful-passive-on-a-bow-attack-bug-exploit
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359036/2h-forceful-passive-double-dips-mighty-master-at-arms-heavy-weapons-precise-strikes-criticals

And I'm pretty sure if I start looking at Destro staves I'll be able to find a plethora of new inconsistencies. Which isn't a bad idea.

all in all, I've got some work to do, So I'll see ya later.

Avran_Sylt · August 2017

ekaploe wrote: »

The entire premise of this poll is absurd as the passive is under the dual wield skill line. Two Handed weapons have their own passive, so why would they get the benefit of "twin blade?" Think it though before you make a poll.

2H Weapons have their own passive: "Heavy Weapons" which is listed in the title of the poll question. The passives are also mirror images of one another.

The Elder Scrolls Online

What if "Twin Blade and Blunt" and "Heavy Weapons" only Augmented Heavy Attacks?

What if "Twin Blade and Blunt" and "Heavy Weapons" only Augmented Heavy Attacks? 24 votes