Alchemical wrote: »

Things that matter about healing:

> Did anyone die?
>> No
>>> You are a good healer

That's it. Literally nothing else matters. If someone can perform their job, their class, build, etc does not matter.

'buh its not optimal!!1!'
Did you die? No? Then it's not a problem. The healer's job is keeping you alive.
If you did die then your healer needs to reevaluate the way they are playing.

It's that simple. Period. Case closed.

You sure? And it doesn't matter that I didn't die because I had to keep reapplying a shield all the time and didn't do any DPS or had to cloak the entire time (not that I should have it on my bar at all)?

So will "Did things die?-Yes.-You're a good DPS" work since it's the same logic? (I mean, lack of thereof).

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Barrier moves with you and makes you immortal while Nova stays where it is and only reduces 30% of the damage done so apparently Barrier has its edge compared to Nova, what to use entirely depends on your own group's strategy, example first boss AA instead of dropping Nova along the way, you can pop Barrier, or first boss HRC both Nova and Barrier are good options, many groups utilize Barrier there, it was also suggested by Alcast as a good strategy. Oh and Barrier provides a 4% magicka regen bonus.

It doesn't matter if Healing ward is delayed, once you pop it that low health guy is saved, and there's no "cone" so you can save the guy behind you. Pet isn't going to die if you Command Pet + Right click, first rule in "How to train your Twilight 101", try it.

You agree with me about Purge? Good.

You are not running vet trials, do you? Stop being a youtube warrior and go see how it works yourself. Barrier absolutely is not a competition against Nova. First fights in vAA and HRC how is "dropping nova along the way" bad? The boss is freaking static. He's not moving. This is perfect for nova. + it deals some damage + it provides synergy for Alkosh + it reduces ALL damage by 30% for ALL 12 players, not just 6. No, no one utilizes barrier if they can get away with Nova. Nova = faster, more reliable, higher score.

It absolutely does matter that it's delayed, it can be removed by damage before healing, let alone proccing SPC. And of course I don't agree about Purge. I would need to be pretty illogical if I didn't see the difference between a random purge that I can't control and giving a synergy that a specific player can use + it gives an aoe heal for everyone.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

No you didn't.

Yes I did. Twice.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Sure. Non-Templar healers now can feed resources to the group with the change to orb, Templar doesn't have access to Major Mending anymore, it's now an open playfield.
They have access to HoTs, burst heal, combat prayer, healing springs, ele drain (minor magickasteal), orbs etc.. all the tools needed to heal the group effectively while providing buffs, debuffs and extra resources to the group.
So yeah non-Templar healers can heal effectively in all kinds of content.

No, they can't and they don't. That's why they aren't used by competitive groups who use what works the best. Everyone always had access to combat prayer. Shards are still better than orbs, they simply give more.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Yes, healing with Templar is like hammering a nail with a German hammer, and healing with non-Templar healers is like hammering with a French hammer, if I want to compete in my village's hammering contest, I would probably pick up a German hammer. Of course in a contest you will see mostly German hammers. But if someone wants to use a French hammer, please, by my guess.

Already answered this. No idea why you don't read the entire post before replying. The answer is quoted below.

Artis wrote: »

The second best doesn't matter. If you choose between the two options, choosing between German and French hammer is the same as choosing between German hammer and a microscope. There is NO REASON to use the one that's less effective if you can choose the one that's more effective.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

"Choosing between German and French hammer is the same as choosing between German hammer and a microscope." lol this is going to be in my signature (EDIT: forget it, French people will probably burn me alive). Did you realize that you just pissed off 66.9 millions people (aka the entire French population)?

Why are you lying? Not even to others, to yourself. What you have in quotemarks is not what I said at all. You left out the part saying "IF you choose between two options" which changes everything. My statement is logically correct. Absolutely correct. You are choosing between a better and worse option AND have a freedom of using both. Then it doesn't matter how much worse the worse option is. It's worse period. End of discussion.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Yes there are many reasons why you would go for a French hammer instead of a German hammer.
1) You are French.
2) You don't like German stuffs for some reasons. (Gods know why but you don't like them, probably just a personal preference).
3) You look at the price, the German hammer is significantly more expensive, and you don't want to spend that much for something that is only slightly better.
Translating to ESO:
1) You are a DK main, you love that class so much.
2) Templar bores you to death, you hate that class with a passion.
3) You want to be a healer, but you don't have a lot of time playing so you can't really level up an alt, also you hate Skyreach grinding so much you would rather uninstall the game than spending time in it. You have a vet Sorc already, so, sorc healer here we go.

That's not translating to ESO at all, because:
1)You can like whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that something else is better and you will have to choose between playing something else or not playing your DK (as in, you won't get into good groups).
2)Same as 1. Not relevant. When optimizing something - you take what works, not what you like.
3)Sure, as long as you shut up that all classes are effective and accept that you chose a less effective one.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps ran with non-Templar healers and he was impressed by them, are you implying that paulsimonps isn't a top tier raider?
I have always said that Templar is the best class in healing, I argued a lot with people who say it isn't. But i am a reasonable person, I understand that being the best doesn't mean other classes aren't viable, and it is a matter of fact that other classes are viable in healing even in vet trials. As for why go for why go for the 2nd best, if people ask me what class should they go for if they want to heal, I always suggest people to go for the best, as in, go for Templar healers. But if a person wants to be a DK healer for example, then I am not going to stop them because I know for a fact that DK healers are viable to do everything even vet trials.

Impressed by players, I assume. Which doesn't mean those players wouldn't be even more impressive as templars. And wasn't it his story where a sorc healer was great but then rerolled a templar? Either, I am not going to interpret his words and you shouldn't. He's here - ask him what he meant.

But no, you are not a reasonable person in this thread. This argument is purely about logic and etymology. Templars are better, so they are a healer (go-to) class. That's all. The rest is exactly what I said. You can heal with any other class. You can hammer nails with microscopes and screw-drivers. It will work okay in easy content and will probably get the job done in end-game even if painfully and worse and not efficient. Everyone should play whatever class and role they want. But it won't change the fact that there are healer/dps/tank classes.

@paulsimonps

I'm not sure why are you saying those things. I never denied that microscopes can hammer nails. Every class can keep a group alive. But as we all (who knows what they are talking about and actually run trials) agreed simply keeping the group alive is not the only healer's job.

And absolutely no class gives you a pass. There are terrible templar healers. I never said the opposite, not sure why you even bring it up, it's pretty obvious, I think, that each class has a whole normal distribution of how players perform as that class.

Everyone should play sub-par class-role combos if it's fun for them. I never said they shouldn't, and I would never kick anyone from the guild for that. But the argument I was having was that it's false that there are no healer/tank/DPS classes. This is demonstrably false. If there's no reason to bring class X over class Z for healing/tanking, than Z is a healer/tank class. That's is ALL I'm saying.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Please point out where I said that non-Templar healers are better than Templar healers.

I even argued with people who said so to prove that Templar healers are the best.

My point is that French cars work perfectly so if someone wants to go for one of them, I am not going to stop them. If someone asks me "Which car should I buy", I will always say "Buy the German car", but people who say "French cars are *** don't buy them" *** me off, because it is objectively wrong. French cars are good enough, they are just slightly worse than German cars. AND THEY ARE ALL CARS. LIKE, DRAGONKNIGHT HEALERS ARE GOD DAMN HEALERS, GET IT? It's the point. Dragonknight healers are healers, performing slightly worse than Templar healers doesn't make them a microscope or a freaking apple, they are still healers, they are good enough to do all kinds of content effectively. Like French cars are cars, not the best cars but they are cars, good ones, get it?

You are questioning that fact and asking to explain why they are better. The only reason for that is that you think they are not better.

There is no such thing as good enough. "Effectively" is NOT an absolute term. It's relative. Effective = the best possible way, as opposed to ineffective = gets the job done, but slower/worse. Therefore, yes it does make DK healers microscopes in this sense : you CAN hammer a nail, it WILL get the job done and can hammer any nail. However, it will be less convenient. What's a hammer? Just a mass on a stick. Any mass will get the job done, microscope will, but why would you use it for that, if it's made to look at microbes? And why would you heal with a DK if you can bring a templar healer and use a DK for tanking or dealing damage?

And sure, as I said, you can use your family car instead of your sports car to race. It's still a car. But it's just much worse for racing.

P.S. your german/french thing is not analogous to different classes at all. Different tools = different classes. Not different country or make model. THat would compare to German and French players building their characters(tools).

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

1) Nova reduces the damage done by 30%, as in you still take 70% of the damage during 8 seconds, and Barrier is "you become immortal until 20k shield runs out or after 30 seconds", or "you have 40k health now". What to use entirely depends on each group's own strategy.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-hel-ra-citadel/
Not just Barrier, Alcast even acknowledged that Nightblade's Veil of Blade can be used.

2) "Superior", as in, "i am only slightly better than you but "superior" makes me feel nicer about myself" or "i am miles better than you"? I understand if someone wants to feel better about themselves, but that's not the reality, Templar's passive and support abilities only make them slightly better.

Facepalm. Why? Why are you arguing about things being objectively compared, when you can't do math?

20K shield? If you received 67k damage with 30% mitigation from Nova (which makes it 47k received +20k mitigated) - that's the equivalent of your 20k shield. Taking ANY MORE damage within 8 seconds = Nova is superior. Considering the fact that barrier only gives that 20k shield to 6 people and Nova mitigates 30% of damage dealt (= works for all 12 players), it must be clear now that Nova is better.

Alcasts guide you linked is for everyone, not sharing the optimized strategy his group is using, but just telling his readers all possible options. If you ran trials yourself you would understand that. He simply gives you a list of options you can use if needed. Say, if Nova isn't enough what ELSE can you use to add mitigation.

As shown mathematically above - Nova is much better than barrier. Veil's radius is too small. It won't work anywhere where it's important. There's no place where Nova requires veil's help AND veil can reliably be used. But sure, feel free to list/link groups who can complete vhrc or vhof hard modes and use veil or barrier. Or even better - where barrier or veil are better to use than Nova = groups specifically use them and don't use Nova when they have choice.

Vizier wrote: »

Considering the size of this thread I should have quoted who I was responding to. Their argument seeming to support kicking all but Templar healers...because they give other resources. To be clear, I don't support such elitist bull. My point merely being it's not a healer's job to provide resources other than health.

You make a great point here though which lends to the notion that ultimately it's everyone's responsibility for managing their own resources and helping out how they can with what they have.

You're wrong. We all agree that there's no reason to kick non templar healers from guilds.

But we also all agree that yes, IT IS healer's job to provide resources other than health.

QuebraRegra wrote: »

NB's have one of the strongest burst heals in the game (stronger than a Templar) in SOUL SIPHON. Also HEALING WARD can be a big burst heal if built correctly.

Groups discriminate against healers other than Templars because of misinformation that gets propagated just like this.

You gotta be kidding,right? Soul Siphon that costs 200 ulti is your analogy of a skill that costs magicka and can be used any time? Also, healing ward is much worse.)

I'm not talking about your ignorant starting groups that discriminate based on what they see on youtube or leaderboards. I'm talking about groups that ARE on leaderboards and high. They DON'T listen to any misinformation. They test everything and choose what works the best. They are CREATING information. They run templars because they are better, that's all. They don't discriminate against classes unless those classes perform worse.

Rickter wrote: »

Is this actually a thing? because i thought Magicka Templars were dead and Templar Healers were going to be replaced by Wardens?

Deltia told me so.

Before or after the second set of squats?

exeeter702 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

They test everything and choose what works the best.

The fact of the matter is that most of those 3 percent groups are conforming to standards that have been in place for years in regards to the healing role. When the gates opened for hof on live, leaderboard groups brought 2 templar healers without a second thought. The precedent is always set and everyone below follows it blindly. I can almost promise that if any top end trial group pushing 1st or 2nd at the least humored the notion of a non templar healer and brought an appropriately skilled player for the task, their results would hardly deviate from expectations.

No one is testing non templar healers at the highest level. And everyone else refuses to acknowledge non temp healers based on top 3 percent group makeups.

Obviously when the new update starts you bring what worked in the previous one. Other than that, yes they do test other people. BUT some of them aren't even necessary to test. You read skills and passives - and see if they have everything you need and add something to a group. That's all.

But you can argue that healing ward is as good as a non delayed burst heal that heals one other ally as well for half the amount.

Whatever, not trying to convince you about anything. Run whatever class you want. And what's the problem with basing it on all top 3% groups ( and it's not 3%, it's most of all leaderboards).

There's so many of you claiming other classes can do everything too. So what's the problem? Become one of the top groups with a non templar healer and prove your words. If you can't gather 12 people, well, start with vDSA maybe. Not that it's relevant or the same as actual trials, but it should be easy for your to get a group going to begin somewhere. I'm pretty sure I counted at least 4 in this thread.

Artis wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

They test everything and choose what works the best.

The fact of the matter is that most of those 3 percent groups are conforming to standards that have been in place for years in regards to the healing role. When the gates opened for hof on live, leaderboard groups brought 2 templar healers without a second thought. The precedent is always set and everyone below follows it blindly. I can almost promise that if any top end trial group pushing 1st or 2nd at the least humored the notion of a non templar healer and brought an appropriately skilled player for the task, their results would hardly deviate from expectations.

No one is testing non templar healers at the highest level. And everyone else refuses to acknowledge non temp healers based on top 3 percent group makeups.

Obviously when the new update starts you bring what worked in the previous one. Other than that, yes they do test other people. BUT some of them aren't even necessary to test. You read skills and passives - and see if they have everything you need and add something to a group. That's all.

But you can argue that healing ward is as good as a non delayed burst heal that heals one other ally as well for half the amount.

Whatever, not trying to convince you about anything. Run whatever class you want. And what's the problem with basing it on all top 3% groups ( and it's not 3%, it's most of all leaderboards).

There's so many of you claiming other classes can do everything too. So what's the problem? Become one of the top groups with a non templar healer and prove your words. If you can't gather 12 people, well, start with vDSA maybe. Not that it's relevant or the same as actual trials, but it should be easy for your to get a group going to begin somewhere. I'm pretty sure I counted at least 4 in this thread.

Technically it's really that hard to get on leaderboards... especially vDSA ( it's a win if you complete it) . No really for most part it's team synergy, coordination, and knowing the mechanics...and time commitment.

I suppose we have issues when people try distort truth from reality. It's doesn't matter what truth is there will always debate at the greater truth.

Looking back, it's actually quite fun or I say assuming how things changed in but a year. Remember last year, notice of having a non Templar healer was a kick ( there was no voting) from group from a dungeon but later just dlc dungeons Then it was normal trials...and now we are here.

Now back to debate, I a sorrecer healer casually claim leaderboard positions in mid ranks. I have plenty room improvement ..be it me or my questionable pc. I believe given another years time or introduction of trial finder we will have a mix of trial healers.

As healers are job is to support. There's many ways to do so. It's not like dps we don't have push numbers...we just got make sure people are alive.

How I would describe each healer on a resume

Night blade

Powerful dps yet supportive close range with heals. Sets I would consider using to highlight strengths. Master architect, draugher, gossmber, infabile aether

- Drauger set small range is useful healers such as this would might be in the fray

- gossmber needs lots of hot and health not always at the top to work. Also using the nightblade can partake more in dps.


Master architect and spell power cure has me drooling...oh such power and cheap ult. Also note reduce potion cool down supposly will work after next patch.Imagine you can dps and provide dps to allies. Such power!

Dragon knight

I would say they are good at not letting damage touch you from crowd control to Shields. They migrate damage before it even happens. Sets of interest may be triminic and prayers shawal, shalks exoskeleton

Templar

I would say for job. Good for anything as it's balance. Gear sets I would recommend worm, mending.

Warden

Good at helping you endure fights. Involves taking care of timing and positioning. Does well in battlegrounds. Gear sets I would recommend, earth forge, inventors guard, mending

Sorrecer

Abundance of resources, good at dealing with choas by adapting to the situation. Gear sets that I would recommend are twlight remedy, necropotance, worm

Tasear wrote: »

Technically it's really that hard to get on leaderboards... especially vDSA ( it's a win if you complete it) . No really for most part it's team synergy, coordination, and knowing the mechanics...and time commitment.

I suppose we have issues when people try distort truth from reality. It's doesn't matter what truth is there will always debate at the greater truth.

Looking back, it's actually quite fun or I say assuming how things changed in but a year. Remember last year, notice of having a non Templar healer was a kick ( there was no voting) from group from a dungeon but later just dlc dungeons Then it was normal trials...and now we are here.

Now back to debate, I a sorrecer healer casually claim leaderboard positions in mid ranks. I have plenty room improvement ..be it me or my questionable pc. I believe given another years time or introduction of trial finder we will have a mix of trial healers.

As healers are job is to support. There's many ways to do so. It's not like dps we don't have push numbers...we just got make sure people are alive.

How I would describe each healer on a resume

Night blade

Powerful dps yet supportive close range with heals. Sets I would consider using to highlight strengths. Master architect, draugher, gossmber, infabile aether

- Drauger set small range is useful healers such as this would might be in the fray

- gossmber needs lots of hot and health not always at the top to work. Also using the nightblade can partake more in dps.


Master architect and spell power cure has me drooling...oh such power and cheap ult. Also note reduce potion cool down supposly will work after next patch.Imagine you can dps and provide dps to allies. Such power!

Dragon knight

I would say they are good at not letting damage touch you from crowd control to Shields. They migrate damage before it even happens. Sets of interest may be triminic and prayers shawal, shalks exoskeleton

Templar

I would say for job. Good for anything as it's balance. Gear sets I would recommend worm, mending.

Warden

Good at helping you endure fights. Involves taking care of timing and positioning. Does well in battlegrounds. Gear sets I would recommend, earth forge, inventors guard, mending

Sorrecer

Abundance of resources, good at dealing with choas by adapting to the situation. Gear sets that I would recommend are twlight remedy, necropotance, worm

No one said it would be easy. But instead of crying - why don't they go and prove their words. When you make an affirmative claim challenging the current paradigm, the burden of proof is on you.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Mathematical healing output is not enough. Healing is not the only healer's job. 9 pages of this thread and you still didn't get it?

Are you serious? Pay attention man, that was one half of the point. There was a single person here that was arguing the point of utility responsibly vs raw healing. I am not that person. Actually read the thread and then feel free to edit this comment out. Thanks.

No, you pay attention and read and reply to the whole comment. Your other half of the point is refuted in that and other comments already.

When can I see your video demonstrating that non templar healers can beat templar healers and get the same scores? Should I follow you on twitch or youtube? Post a link, please.

Artis wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Please read... already did. It's been a year and it's been great. Thanks all who made it possible friends and zos.

Already did what? Got to the mid ranks? That only proves my point so far. Get to the top, within a few percent of the top score, then we're talking.

Mid ranks? I was in mid ranks when my NB was a tank. That's nothing. That never changed the fact that DK was a tank class and NB was worse.

You are so silly, but I will bite. You pointed out saying nobody on leaderboard is non Templar healer, but that's not the truth. I know a dragon knight healer who hangs way above my head. A nightblade healer who definitely pushed it to best you can be. I actually know two or three other sorrecer healers among the ranks. The point is traditional is changing. It's people like this who change such perception.

As to say it's in your head. It's the player not the class

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"Yawn"? I'm sorry I'm boring you I guess. Can't blame you, templar healers bore me so I have mine collecting dust.

Every single class in the game has a burst heal in healing ward.

Veil's radius is Novas minus about 5ft. It stacks with nova. You often stack to get the most out of healing springs (which, fun fact, only has a 3m larger radius than veil).

Sorcs can negate trash area damage, and of course it's not as useful as warhorn. Neither is nova or veil if you want damage. It's a utility skill for defense, and you left out the healing it does

It is theoretical blah blah blah? No, it is a discussion. We're talking about how you can heal on any class in any content and not drag your team down. I think you feel were arguing there is no "best"? I'm not. I'm saying not taking another healer besides a templar is silliness unless you're going for the all time score. There are so few competing you don't even really need it for weeklies. If you want a temp-temp run at all times, cool! Just know a sorc-temp or DK- temp won't suffer in the way you think.

"And you are ignoring the main question. Why are best group running templar (and now warden sometimes) healers?"

I actually don't know. And I'm not trolling when I ask why, I'm genuine. The answer "they're the best because the best use them" isn't an explanation, it is circular logic. Why use two temps. And moreover, isn't it telling people are starting to use one temp, and one off class?

"There are classes that are the best in certain roles, it's just what it is." Well, yeah. Math works. What I care about is HOW big the difference is and tbh, the difference is there, but not big enough to make or break you, all other variables controlled. Maybe a minute or two less? Maybe? If you're going for world first, this matters. Where else does it? Certainly not for me. That isn't Inherently any more or less selfish than asking me to play a class I don't like for anything other than a world first, world record etc. If we're clearing a vet HM trial, and we clear just fine with one none temp...who actually cares?

"there's just no reason to bring another class over a templar(+warden maybe if you need 2 healers). Like, where exactly would it be needed? In which trials/dungeons?"

If you need two healers? O.o If?

And the reason is I like it, and provide buffs and situational stuff for my group. Tank won't need to chain adds to safety rock in AA, can use shield instead for more stam to block and shield the group. Ever tried not stacking during last boss MoL? Having your group pile up together means veil AND nova together is a HUGE reduction in incoming, and veil lasts longer than nova (Almost double duration in fact).

That's only off the top of my head.

Veil is dropped under the caster, Nova can be dropped at the range of 25m. Stacking doesn't matter, in score runs - no place requires stacking veil and nova, not to mention that it's a DPS loss. 5ft radius - assuming this is true, I've no idea where you got this number from, link please - means 1.524 meters with the radius of veil being 5m. Thus the area covered by veil is 78.5 square meters and Nova covers 133.7 square meters, which is almost 2 times as much. And don't forget about 28m range. But most important? It doesn't matter what area is covered by Nova at all. Players don't need to be inside. They can be anywhere they want.

What trash area damage? Please, you still didn't list any examples. Exact fights and places. Nova is useful. If you claim otherwise, please tell me how many groups completed vHOF hm without it (and even vhrc hm)?

No, sorry, but it is a theoretical blahblahblah here, because it's not taking reality into account. Want it to be a discussion? Be specific. Or you are like the guy who says 20k shields is the same as nova, when if you do simple math you show that NOWHERE where nova or barrier is actually needed barrier is better.

The logic is not circular. They are not the best because best use them. Best use them because they are the best. And no, 2 templars is good and all, but I see templar + warden pretty often now.

It really isn't relevant what matters to you, sorry. We were talking about optimal groups in this thread and what is good healer's job.

"If you need two healers? O.o If?"

Yes, if. Because I wasn't talking about trials only. I was talking about other dungeons, too.

Not stacking in MoL? What? Who stacks in MoL? Are you talking about normal? You didn't put "v" in front, so I guess, yes, but just making sure. Where in vMoL or even MOL do you need that huge reduction in incoming damage? It's like you are building your group around the fact that people WILL stand in stupid? Why?

Tasear wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Please read... already did. It's been a year and it's been great. Thanks all who made it possible friends and zos.

Already did what? Got to the mid ranks? That only proves my point so far. Get to the top, within a few percent of the top score, then we're talking.

Mid ranks? I was in mid ranks when my NB was a tank. That's nothing. That never changed the fact that DK was a tank class and NB was worse.

You are so silly, but I will bite. You pointed out saying nobody on leaderboard is non Templar healer, but that's not the truth. I know a dragon knight healer who hangs way above my head. A nightblade healer who definitely pushed it to best you can be. I actually know two or three other sorrecer healers among the ranks. The point is traditional is changing. It's people like this who change such perception.

As to say it's in your head. It's the player not the class

No, I didn't say that.... Please, read more carefully. I was talking about the top. Getting to a leaderboard is as easy as completing a trial's hm these days. Raiding population is much lower than in the past. I said - Idk maybe it wasn't clear somehow, so I'll clarify - that no healers in the top groups are DK or whatever. Meaning top of the leaderboard, not JUST being on leaderboards.


P.S. Stop putting words in my mouth. Never have I ever said or implied that other classes shouldn't or can't heal.