ESO explains its core gameplay quite poorly

Pr0Skygon · August 2017

I'm not talking about the tutorial (though I do think that the tutorial should be more epic and dynamic to hook people in), what I'm talking about is what makes ESO so fun and engaging: Animation canceling, decision to be a stam or mag player, item sets, how to actually do your role in PVE (not spamming Dizzying Swing).

You might say that putting in capes or weapon dyes to be game takes time, but I don't think the same can be said about teaching your players how to actually play the game.

If you think the game is doing fine in this apartment, then just use the dungeon group finder. Tons of player (mostly newbie) using it have no idea what is dps rotation, build, positioning, ect.

Here's an idea, add a quest to the undaunted guild to teach new players how to PvE the right way, add a quest to the crafting tutorial to craft your first armor set and see how that goes. Those are just suggestion, you guys at ZOS can do whatever you guys see fit (or do nothing at all), but I generally think that a better explanation to your game's main mechanics would be awesome.

zaria · August 2017

This one was behind the undaunted academy idea

Basic idea was to teach players the basic, rotation as in laying down DoT then spam ability or LA / HA.
Then getting into dual bar rotation, blocking and interrupting.
Then into group play as in stay together kill adds and other basic stuff like not standing in red.
Something like dragon star arena but more like an dungeon some trash pull other would be various bosses, you go in with 3 npc who is the dungeon team.

Not more advanced stuff like AC. But sets and Stamina or magic build makes sense.
Main purpose was not to make you look like an idiot in an normal dungeon.

Second was tank and healer training and perhaps certification. here you are healer or tank for the npc.
Also relevant to test healer or tank setups.

Pr0Skygon · August 2017

The tank and healer training with npc might gets boring, but if implemented well enough, would be a very welcome addition to the game

Seriously, I was queued with a tank with no taunt

Morgul667 · August 2017

Fully agree

zaria · August 2017

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The tank and healer training with npc might gets boring, but if implemented well enough, would be a very welcome addition to the game

Seriously, I was queued with a tank with no taunt

The tank or healing part was mostly for training but also to test out build and setup if we could ramp up difficulty.
Either dungeons are so easy you just has to focus on doing damage as healer or so hard you just have to try to stay alive.

My favorite was an tank with one sword and empty off hand. he was level 47 or something.

Fecius · August 2017

Totally agree. ZOS should help players to get into game mechanics. I meen some deeper layers of it. Other way, the GAP (yeah GAP in CAPS) between new player and really old and experienced player would be bigger every year. Now I just feel pain and my eyes are bleeding when I see most players trying to do smth useful, but actually doing smth ridiculous.

Ashtaris · August 2017

I will agree that it would be nice if ZOS went into more detail in their help section concerning information about combat mechanics and how it all works together. I know this has been a big complaint of @Gilliamtherogue for quite sometime

Fortunately ZOS now has a monthly blog of ESO Community Guides. Be sure to check out some of the streamers and see what they have to offer.

Kiralyn2000 · August 2017

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I'm not talking about the tutorial (though I do think that the tutorial should be more epic and dynamic to hook people in), what I'm talking about is what makes ESO so fun and engaging: Animation canceling, decision to be a stam or mag player, item sets, how to actually do your role in PVE (not spamming Dizzying Swing).

Hmm. Not sure I'd label that stuff "fun & engaging" (not like, say, exploring/lore/story), but it does seem useful & important. (That said, a lot of MMOs I've tried don't do a good job of explaining the real mechanics behind playing right. That seems to be the realm of forum threads & wikis.)

ProfesseurFreder · August 2017

This assumes that there is only one "right" way to play.

Remag_Div · August 2017

It doesn't help with the level scaling now that all the solo content in this game is *** easy and by time players get to the hard group stuff have no idea what to do.

Vanthras79 · August 2017

Maybe ZOS should hire "the Mooch" for their press releases regarding balancing changes? (sike!)

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

This assumes that there is only one "right" way to play.

Tanking without taunt is the wrong way to play.

Waffennacht · August 2017

The tutorial only teaches: light attacks, heavy attacks, block and bash...

I still find that funny

Sunah · August 2017

Also need to teach players the benefits of buffs.. food/major/minor, stuffs like that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · August 2017

Ya know, there are literally threads with the exact same content in my previous MMO (Rift) as well, on a regular basis to this day. Is it just me, or are ALL modern western MMOs really bad at explaining and teaching endgame play to their playerbase?

I know a big problem in Rift was that most of the devs barely played their own game, and the ones who did were extremely casual.

That being said, i can't imagine trying to teach animation cancelling to your playerbase. Honestly, animation cancelling almost made me quit this game when I realized it was an integral part of the endgame meta. The positives of everything else just BARELY outweighs animation cancelling for me, and that was only after I got "creative" with my mouse buttons and some menu options.

I tried explaining animation cancelling in a completely unbiased way to a friend of mine who plays other games, and he almost threw up in his mouth at the idea. Even if the vets of ESO have embraced it, it is still a VERY toxic, backwards, bizarre concept to the gaming community as a whole.

Many games enable you to cancel animations with other actions, but they do it in an intelligent way where the cancelled action doesn't have any effect or apply any damage. Because, ya know, it was cancelled. This way, it doesn't become a part of maximizing dps, because that would just be insane. Right? Oh wait.....

What I'm trying to say is, many MMOs are real, real bad at explaining endgame, but it's especially bad for ESO because something like animation cancelling should never be an integral part of dealing damage. It makes it THAT much harder for new players to wrap their heads around endgame, aside from just being a terrible "feature" to begin with.

QuebraRegra · August 2017

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The tank and healer training with npc might gets boring, but if implemented well enough, would be a very welcome addition to the game

Seriously, I was queued with a tank with no taunt

THE GAME NEEDS THIS!!! too many fools queuing who have NO idea of the roles or how to perform. tutorial with role cert (like a sim).

DeathStalker · August 2017

I played the beta, didn't like it and left to play other games. I just returned to the game. So I am very new and still have to learn everything. I love this idea. I have been asking my guild a thousand questions. Looking stuff up online like builds and cp. I love this idea. This game is fun but seems really overwhelming to me. More at the start than now. But anything to help guide new players a little more would be helpful.

KochDerDamonen · August 2017

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

This assumes that there is only one "right" way to play.

@ProfessorFreder It's at least fair to say that, in a dungeon run, a player queuing as a Healer should heal, a Tank should taunt/hold aggro, and a DD should... deal damage

If the game can't explain its own roles, what's the point of having them? Might as well toss four random people together and hope for the best (or for an experienced player to carry the other three), right? haha

victoriana-blue · August 2017

Given how many people don't know:
- that max magicka/stamina affects your damage with magicka/stamina abilities
- that you can visit your own guilds' stores at most bankers
- that you can pay a fence to reduce your bounty (and that bounty goes down even while logged out)
- how to make set gear
- etc

... The game could really use a better help system and tutorial modes.

Ashtaris · August 2017

Well I think part of the problem is available resources vs. return. Zenimax can spend money hiring developers for more content, or community reps to develop gameplay guides but are not willing to do both, and one obviously has a higher priority than the other. In many cases ZOS depends on the community itself for gameplay guides and if you search on the internet you can find information covering crafting, combat, builds, gear, etc. Use the experience from others who have been in the game since the beginning as many of them are happy to share.

Cryptical · August 2017

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The tank and healer training with npc might gets boring, but if implemented well enough, would be a very welcome addition to the game

Seriously, I was queued with a tank with no taunt

That's weak. You gotta experience something with moar cowbell to hang with us.

Last week I pugged as healer in normal wayrest2 for a mag dk in light armor that swung around a 2hand sword the whole time. Person was in the champ 180s.

QuebraRegra · August 2017

Cryptical wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The tank and healer training with npc might gets boring, but if implemented well enough, would be a very welcome addition to the game

Seriously, I was queued with a tank with no taunt

That's weak. You gotta experience something with moar cowbell to hang with us.

Last week I pugged as healer in normal wayrest2 for a mag dk in light armor that swung around a 2hand sword the whole time. Person was in the champ 180s.

about the 100tth time the PUG tank I've been queued with has no taunt. My fav with the "fank" (fake tank) who when questioned about holding agro said, "I just attack em""... then proceeded to just continue to LA his way thru the dungeon.

QuebraRegra · August 2017

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

This assumes that there is only one "right" way to play.

@ProfessorFreder It's at least fair to say that, in a dungeon run, a player queuing as a Healer should heal, a Tank should taunt/hold aggro, and a DD should... deal damage

If the game can't explain its own roles, what's the point of having them? Might as well toss four random people together and hope for the best (or for an experienced player to carry the other three), right? haha

and the PUG DPS don't even DPS... too many can't even kill a single mob creature. I'm not sure what's going on with the randos queuing for dungeons.

idk · August 2017

its not the role of Zos to hold players hands and walk them around everything like they're little children in a game rated dro adults.

Besides, it would be a horribly poor choice to listen to the devs at Zos on how to play this game since they are not the experts on gameplay here.

I can see it now, but this is how Zos said to do it. Reply, and that's why you keep dying or your dps is so low. You should have asked in guild or many of the other good options.

Zvorgin · August 2017

Mechanics are explained terribly, it's why most resources you can google haven't been updated since 2014/2015, even some in game materials are out of date and the tool tips are often flat out wrong.

zaria · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

This assumes that there is only one "right" way to play.

Tanking without taunt is the wrong way to play.

This, its plain wrong ways however, purpose of such an tutorial would not be to teach BiS or vTrial tactic, it would be basic about rotation, the advanced part would be two bar rotation an weaving but not animation canceling. Its much easier to ask players to change rotation if they know that it is and that you can swap in and out skills.

Bouldercleave · August 2017

One major problem is that there is not progressively harder content.

You go from steamrolling everything overland up to and including public dungeons straight to very difficult content. There is no real middle ground that teaches you to be a better player without throwing you into an elite fire so to speak.

You can't blame the "elite" players for having it figured out and getting frustrated with new players and you can't blame new players, because there is almost nothing in the game that gently forces them to get progressively better.

You CAN NOT become a good player by playing 99% of the game. I can run every quest, every delve, every public dungeon, every overland item and not know anything as far as mechanics or class strengths and weaknesses.

I tested this on a StamBlade. I maxed EVERY weapon skill line including Restoration Staff and was able to complete pretty much everything listed above no matter what skills or weapons that I was using. That is a MAJOR problem and should not be possible in my opinion. If a StamBlade can steamroll a public dungeon with an Destro Staff and a Resto staff backbar, there is a serious failing somewhere.

Waffennacht · August 2017

Bouldercleave wrote: »

One major problem is that there is not progressively harder content.

You go from steamrolling everything overland up to and including public dungeons straight to very difficult content. There is no real middle ground that teaches you to be a better player without throwing you into an elite fire so to speak.

You can't blame the "elite" players for having it figured out and getting frustrated with new players and you can't blame new players, because there is almost nothing in the game that gently forces them to get progressively better.

You CAN NOT become a good player by playing 99% of the game. I can run every quest, every delve, every public dungeon, every overland item and not know anything as far as mechanics or class strengths and weaknesses.

I tested this on a StamBlade. I maxed EVERY weapon skill line including Restoration Staff and was able to complete pretty much everything listed above no matter what skills or weapons that I was using.

For PvE, it's more like player vs gear rather than player vs content. Like you said you steam roll everything, expecting content to get harder - which only happens if you out level your gear

kargen27 · August 2017

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The tank and healer training with npc might gets boring, but if implemented well enough, would be a very welcome addition to the game

Seriously, I was queued with a tank with no taunt

Really good chance that tank was just DPS skipping to the head of the line.

I would have liked more information when I started the game. Kind of tough though to have a tutorial on rotations, bar swapping and all that stuff in the beginning because you basically have one crap weapon and one skill to go with it. A tutorial later in the game might make sense and some would benefit from it I am sure. The problem is this... the type of player that jumps into the game and immediately asks for a carry through Skyreach is the same type of player that would skip any tutorial. A good tutorial might be a great idea but it isn't going to solve the tank who can't/won't taunt problem. Maybe if the tutorial was required to unlock undaunted or something like that and was account not character driven it could work but even then I feel the players in a hurry wouldn't get much out of it and we would still have DPS standing behind the healer lobbing arrows at the boss.

All that being said I actually think the limited information in game helped me in the long run. I am not a social person. When I ran into a problem in the game I had almost decided to just skip it and hope it wasn't content needed for the story line. Eventually though I asked a question in guild chat (had to overcome a weird fear that also causes me to not use the drive through at fast food places) and got a guild invite. Getting in that guild turned out to be a very good thing and I'm not sure I would have ever joined a guild if a better tutorial existed.

idk · August 2017

zaria wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

This assumes that there is only one "right" way to play.

Tanking without taunt is the wrong way to play.

This, its plain wrong ways however, purpose of such an tutorial would not be to teach BiS or vTrial tactic, it would be basic about rotation, the advanced part would be two bar rotation an weaving but not animation canceling. Its much easier to ask players to change rotation if they know that it is and that you can swap in and out skills.

There are thousands of rotations in this game and even the meta builds can be done a little differently since nothing realy builds a proc that enhances another skill.

In reality, to teach anything about a rotation in ESO one has to teach the skills to begin with. The only reason we have rotations in this game is due to dots, for the most part.

And it's not Zos responsibility. It comes easy from discussions with guild members. If someone doesn't want to join a guild or ask in the forums or google info it's really their problem as it should be.

OP is asking for people who are far from experts at this game to teach others how to play it. Not a good idea.

Jhalin · August 2017

When there was a level system, there was a noticeable rise in difficulty as you progressed through zones. Lower levels could venture ahead, but had to use more strategy to defeat enemies since they were scaled to a higher level. With One Tamriel, that stopped happening. Any gear, any abilities, and any weapons are perfectly suitable for completing overland content now. It really is a terrible system, and just misleads players into thinking their heavy armor, full hp statted, double DW NB would be at all viable in endgame content.

FFXIV has very basic strategy guides for group content, and it was actually very helpful. Honesty it'd be necessary for players new to MMOs, and it's weird that ESO has none of that.