Changes to Mages Wrath need to happen

DarkLylith · July 2017

Ok so the problem, a sorc can plant mages wrath on a full health enemy and go off and do something else while a team mate attacks the original target, and before the team mate can even do their own execute mages wrath explosion happens, meaning sorc get kill, sorc does barely any work.
Changes that NEED to happen. Mages wrath explosion should not have a 4 second timer. The explosion should only happen if the mages wrath is cast while the target is already at 20% or lower health. This is how any other executes works. You got to actually do the skill while in execute range and not beforehand.
I have played a sorc for about 2 years in PVP. And all I can say is when I get 20-30 kills and my team mates get hardly any, all because of my unfair execute, i feel horrible...to the point now I have swapped over to my magblade. Getting 5-10 kills on my magblade feels like so much more of an accomplishment than 20-30 on my kill stealing sorc.
I don't want to play my sorc without and execute, but I atleast want it to be inline with all the other executes.

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

Here's the problem with changing it (from my perspective). It needs to change in PVP, but it shouldn't change in PVE. Unfortunately, ZOS wants the skills to remain intuitive and not operate differently when transitioning between PVP and PVE.

So I'd prefer Mage's Wrath not get touched because I do not want to see it nerfed in PVE.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · July 2017

Stop asking for nerfs. Geez Louise.

DarkLylith · July 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Here's the problem with changing it (from my perspective). It needs to change in PVP, but it shouldn't change in PVE. Unfortunately, ZOS wants the skills to remain intuitive and not operate differently when transitioning between PVP and PVE.

So I'd prefer Mage's Wrath not get touched because I do not want to see it nerfed in PVE.

i honestly don't think it would make a difference in pve. On boss fight most sorcs don't start mages wrath until boss is at 20% anyways. So it will still do the same damage, it would just stop sorc being able to pre plant it in PVP. The percentage could even be changed to 25% like the nightblades execute instead of the 4 second timer. Meaning a higher execute range in PVE and higher overall dps on the boss fights

Biro123 · July 2017

No.

The problem isn't how wrath works. The problem is that it started to matter who got the 'kill'.

Just make killing blows not matter for anything again.

Zordrage · July 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

No.

The problem isn't how wrath works. The problem is that it started to matter who got the 'kill'.

Just make killing blows not matter for anything again.

this......

what is this a moba ? need them last hits for them rewards....

DarkLylith · July 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

No.

The problem isn't how wrath works. The problem is that it started to matter who got the 'kill'.

Just make killing blows not matter for anything again.

well in deathmatch who got the kill does kind of matter. The most kills tends to get the higher score, higher your score higher you are on the leaderboards and the people on the leaderboards get the gold rewards.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Then change how scoring works rather than making everything the same.

Septimus_Magna · July 2017

I disagree with making Mages Fury function like other executes because each execute should have something unique. Although I dont find it that useful in PVE due to the delayed dmg and long animation.

The problem you describe is caused by a lazy way of crediting players for kills. If the killing blow is all that matters thats where the fault lies.

Morgul667 · July 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

No.

The problem isn't how wrath works. The problem is that it started to matter who got the 'kill'.

Just make killing blows not matter for anything again.

Fully agree

Merlin13KAGL · July 2017

DarkLylith wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

No.

The problem isn't how wrath works. The problem is that it started to matter who got the 'kill'.

Just make killing blows not matter for anything again.

well in deathmatch who got the kill does kind of matter. The most kills tends to get the higher score, higher your score higher you are on the leaderboards and the people on the leaderboards get the gold rewards.

"Who gets the kill" is fine. The method for determining it is asinine.

If someone does 99% of the damage on a player and someone else just happens to time any skill just right (translated -> RNG, most of the time), who really deserves the kill more?

When multiple skills hit at the same time, potentially from different players, how then is the killing blow determined? Timestamps (earliest cast processed first) or some arbitrary internal processing order (Alphabetical, color, lunch special on a given day of the week?)

I realize that's what "Assists" and contributions are for, but the current setup is about as nonintuitive as it gets, made painfully more obvious with this event requirement.

Biro123 · July 2017

DarkLylith wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

No.

The problem isn't how wrath works. The problem is that it started to matter who got the 'kill'.

Just make killing blows not matter for anything again.

well in deathmatch who got the kill does kind of matter. The most kills tends to get the higher score, higher your score higher you are on the leaderboards and the people on the leaderboards get the gold rewards.

So change the rules around how the scoring works... Cmon, think outside of the 'nerf this' mindset and think about what actually is broken (the scoring system).

If you change wrath, you'll probably only find that everyone running dot builds may be getting the kills, then it will be 'Nerf dots'..

Any proper scoring system just needs a 'score' which is based of a combination of damage done, healing done, damage mitigated, kill-blows scored and objective-based stuff. One which can reward all playstyles equally (tanking, healing, damage over time, burst damage, flag-running etc.)

Karm1cOne · July 2017

Make team deathmatch like team anything else. The team shares in the medals.

seedubsrun · July 2017

DarkLylith wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Here's the problem with changing it (from my perspective). It needs to change in PVP, but it shouldn't change in PVE. Unfortunately, ZOS wants the skills to remain intuitive and not operate differently when transitioning between PVP and PVE.

So I'd prefer Mage's Wrath not get touched because I do not want to see it nerfed in PVE.

i honestly don't think it would make a difference in pve. On boss fight most sorcs don't start mages wrath until boss is at 20% anyways. So it will still do the same damage, it would just stop sorc being able to pre plant it in PVP. The percentage could even be changed to 25% like the nightblades execute instead of the 4 second timer. Meaning a higher execute range in PVE and higher overall dps on the boss fights

What you say in regards to PvE is true for 12 man trials but that's about it. In things like vMA the current way it works is really helpful since you can drop wrath and a dot and then move onto the next enemy while the dot triggers wrath and takes out the first one. It's really useful and unique. Changing the whole way it works and taking away it's uniqueness just because of a scoring issue in BGs seems heavy handed. If they were to just change it to where if someone triggers the pre 20% effect and causes a kill then they get the kill and if the enemy is already below 20% and a kill occurs from casting it then the casting sorc should get the kill.

jkolb2030 · July 2017

I would think they just remove the 4second timer on the skill...

If it's an execute, it should need to be applied while the target is at the execute health range before you get the explosion proc.. Idk why it gives you a 4s timer on it to begin with really..

I don't think it nerfs the skill that much if you remove that 4s window - just makes it a normal execute ability.

ezeepeezee · July 2017

I don't really think scoring is the issue with it, though it is an issue. The issue I see is that it's the only execute that doesn't require any sort of precision timing to use. When you have so many heals that scale with missing health - Templar passives, Resto staff passives, Dragon Blood, etc. - you're making it impossibly hard for people to actually use that against a Sorc DD.

If I want my Dragon Blood to hit hard, I have to let my health get low. But if my health gets low, I pop. So I have to waste (on my Stam DK) what precious little magicka I have when my health is ~20-30% (assuming I have 26k~ HP, which I do for PVP). That might sound easy, but considering the damage that curse is doing, that force pulse is doing, that an unblocked frag does, the margin for error is incredibly small. And I will only mention the extreme cost of blocking now.

And this applies to everyone. A resto user has to save their burst heal until low health for maximum efficiency. A Templar or a Warden the same. I understand that this mechanic is intended to pressure people, to not allow them to take advantage of that window of opportunity. But when Sorcs just run around placing MW on anyone and everyone, it makes the game unenjoyable. It's not as if every single group in Cyro doesn't have a Sorc in it.

Biro123 · July 2017

The thing is, you guys are looking at the skill on its own and not as an integral part of what makes up the sorc's burst. All of the sorc's single-target damaging abilities are geared for burst, and look at the timings of them.

wrath - 4 seconds
curse - 3 seconds
(something to help proc frag - empower? CD?)
frag (need to proc)

The burst comes from aligning those three things (often with an empower in there) - which does take practice. Removing the 4-second part would have a big impact on how the class plays.

That said, one of the reasons its used so much is that sorcs don't have a class spammable - so to go DW, its all you got - and with a bad run of numbers on the frag prog, you end up with a ton of wrath spammage - so yeah, it gets used more than it really should as part of a proper burst rotation.

If anything needs adjusting, I'd maybe look at upping the base damage but lowering the execute proc - so it *can* be used more effectively as a spammable, but isn't instant death as soon as your health drops (ie it can still be part of the burst - but will probably also need to be used as a normal execute afterwards too.)

Bkella · July 2017

"Getting kills on a mageblade is so much more of an accomplishment" - yea Eye of Storm, Prox, grothdarr, lotus fan, sap essence for 10 kills is so much more of an accomplishment. Oh and don't forget the VD proc!

DarkLylith · July 2017

Bkella wrote: »

"Getting kills on a mageblade is so much more of an accomplishment" - yea Eye of Storm, Prox, grothdarr, lotus fan, sap essence for 10 kills is so much more of an accomplishment. Oh and don't forget the VD proc!

I run none of those skills or sets.
Not talking about bomb blade, and most of this is about battlegrounds, not Cyrodil. Killing blows don't matter in Cyrodil, you will still get ap without the killing blow, but in deathmatch battlegrounds killing blows matter alot.

Oh and I have seen sorcs do the flag bomb as well, so it's not just night blades doing it.

Gilvoth · July 2017

sorcerer will always be overpowered and have overpowering skills.
just the way eso is, they aren't going to change it.

Vapirko · July 2017

ezeepeezee wrote: »

I don't really think scoring is the issue with it, though it is an issue. The issue I see is that it's the only execute that doesn't require any sort of precision timing to use. When you have so many heals that scale with missing health - Templar passives, Resto staff passives, Dragon Blood, etc. - you're making it impossibly hard for people to actually use that against a Sorc DD.

If I want my Dragon Blood to hit hard, I have to let my health get low. But if my health gets low, I pop. So I have to waste (on my Stam DK) what precious little magicka I have when my health is ~20-30% (assuming I have 26k~ HP, which I do for PVP). That might sound easy, but considering the damage that curse is doing, that force pulse is doing, that an unblocked frag does, the margin for error is incredibly small. And I will only mention the extreme cost of blocking now.

And this applies to everyone. A resto user has to save their burst heal until low health for maximum efficiency. A Templar or a Warden the same. I understand that this mechanic is intended to pressure people, to not allow them to take advantage of that window of opportunity. But when Sorcs just run around placing MW on anyone and everyone, it makes the game unenjoyable. It's not as if every single group in Cyro doesn't have a Sorc in it.

Absolutely agreed. But no matter what the reality of pvp and mag sorcs, no matter how obvious it is that the class has flooded cyrodiil, and how some long time stam streamers have even switched to mag sorcs for the purpose of 1vX, you'll still get droves of people in here denying it. Why? Because it has the most noob users who rely on handicaps and they'll cry the loudest at potential adjustments to their class. Picking people off with a staff is so, so, so easy. I'm experimenting with a resto staff/dw build on my stam sorc and for *** and giggles I started using it to kill people from the walls of ash yesterday because I need to level it and the level of Zerg was just beyond help. Anyway I was blown away by the amount of kills I could snake just by using a freakin defending resto staff heavy and light attack with a snare poison. I was literally speechless, and the amount of magicka heavy attacks restore! I can't imagine how easy it must be using a sharp shock or flame staff with MW. Hell im considering playing with MW on my stam sorc lol. The range on the heavy attack is massive! And it procs skoria! WUT!?

Ankael07 · July 2017

''The system is flawed therefore nerf magicka sorcerers''

Biro123 · July 2017

Vapirko wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

I don't really think scoring is the issue with it, though it is an issue. The issue I see is that it's the only execute that doesn't require any sort of precision timing to use. When you have so many heals that scale with missing health - Templar passives, Resto staff passives, Dragon Blood, etc. - you're making it impossibly hard for people to actually use that against a Sorc DD.

If I want my Dragon Blood to hit hard, I have to let my health get low. But if my health gets low, I pop. So I have to waste (on my Stam DK) what precious little magicka I have when my health is ~20-30% (assuming I have 26k~ HP, which I do for PVP). That might sound easy, but considering the damage that curse is doing, that force pulse is doing, that an unblocked frag does, the margin for error is incredibly small. And I will only mention the extreme cost of blocking now.

And this applies to everyone. A resto user has to save their burst heal until low health for maximum efficiency. A Templar or a Warden the same. I understand that this mechanic is intended to pressure people, to not allow them to take advantage of that window of opportunity. But when Sorcs just run around placing MW on anyone and everyone, it makes the game unenjoyable. It's not as if every single group in Cyro doesn't have a Sorc in it.

Absolutely agreed. But no matter what the reality of pvp and mag sorcs, no matter how obvious it is that the class has flooded cyrodiil, and how some long time stam streamers have even switched to mag sorcs for the purpose of 1vX, you'll still get droves of people in here denying it. Why? Because it has the most noob users who rely on handicaps and they'll cry the loudest at potential adjustments to their class. Picking people off with a staff is so, so, so easy. I'm experimenting with a resto staff/dw build on my stam sorc and for *** and giggles I started using it to kill people from the walls of ash yesterday because I need to level it and the level of Zerg was just beyond help. Anyway I was blown away by the amount of kills I could snake just by using a freakin defending resto staff heavy and light attack with a snare poison. I was literally speechless, and the amount of magicka heavy attacks restore! I can't imagine how easy it must be using a sharp shock or flame staff with MW. Hell im considering playing with MW on my stam sorc lol. The range on the heavy attack is massive! And it procs skoria! WUT!?

Resto staff is strong, so nerf sorcs!

Fwiw, my mag sorc is currently back-barring bow rather than resto for easy access to major expedition.

Magsorcs got too much mobility. Nerf Magsorcs!

leepalmer95 · July 2017

I'm confused here.

The only time 'killing blows'' actually matter is in deathmatch battlegrounds.

In 1 game mode in 1 of 3 different pvp types (not including dueling) is this a 'problem' and even then i can usually kill something before an enemy sorc has fury on it.

Savos_Saren · July 2017

As it's been said before:

Credit for a "full kill" vs an "assist" should depend on the amount of damage done to an enemy. If you do the largest amount of damage to an enemy out of everyone who damages them- you should get credit for the kill...

...not the knucklehead in the background spamming bow light attacks or the MagSorc with Mage's Fury... or even the mDK with the .05 second tick of Burning Talons.

Rikkof · July 2017

jkolb2030 wrote: »

I would think they just remove the 4second timer on the skill...

If it's an execute, it should need to be applied while the target is at the execute health range before you get the explosion proc.. Idk why it gives you a 4s timer on it to begin with really..

I don't think it nerfs the skill that much if you remove that 4s window - just makes it a normal execute ability.

Ok, if You want this them the base mage wrath should deal 300 percent more damage to compensate for no PROC, just like all other executes work în game.
Yet, sorcs will still retain their passive from lightning and the hard hitting execute, so lets have it your WAY, im all for it.
But dont come Back moaning on forums after....

humpalicous · July 2017

DarkLylith wrote: »

Ok so the problem, a sorc can plant mages wrath on a full health enemy and go off and do something else while a team mate attacks the original target, and before the team mate can even do their own execute mages wrath explosion happens, meaning sorc get kill, sorc does barely any work.
Changes that NEED to happen. Mages wrath explosion should not have a 4 second timer. The explosion should only happen if the mages wrath is cast while the target is already at 20% or lower health. This is how any other executes works. You got to actually do the skill while in execute range and not beforehand.
I have played a sorc for about 2 years in PVP. And all I can say is when I get 20-30 kills and my team mates get hardly any, all because of my unfair execute, i feel horrible...to the point now I have swapped over to my magblade. Getting 5-10 kills on my magblade feels like so much more of an accomplishment than 20-30 on my kill stealing sorc.
I don't want to play my sorc without and execute, but I atleast want it to be inline with all the other executes.

Good lord, another nerf thread. People like you are ruining the game

Koensol · July 2017

Even apart from the kb thing, mages wrath in pvp is a complete joke. Imagine running around with 80% health. A sorc behind you (you cannot see him because you are occupied) casts mages wrath on you, followed by a curse) and immediately followed by a light attack+frag proc. Then just watch how the magic unfolds and the mages wrath proc aligns with everything else and just instagibs you. This kind of queued burst is completely ***.