Wardens suck..( pve and pvp )

idk · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

You can't expect a "jack of all trades" class to excel against classes that are designed to excel at one role primarily.

You can't have it all.

Every class except Warden can DPS. It is also not desired for other roles.

@Vaoh

Please look at the parses I linked above for Wardens. Wardens can dps, unless one considers 42k completely self buffed, not even a tank providing major fracture to be poor dps.

Shadzilla · July 2017

Stamward is the best current option in PVP right now. Simple L2P issue is all. PVE they are both trash though, cant argue that.

Vaoh · July 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

You can't expect a "jack of all trades" class to excel against classes that are designed to excel at one role primarily.

You can't have it all.

Every class except Warden can DPS. It is also not desired for other roles.

@Vaoh

Please look at the parses I linked above for Wardens. Wardens can dps, unless one considers 42k completely self buffed, not even a tank providing major fracture to be poor dps.

Sorry to break it to you, but that parse was not impressive in the slightest. Stop gloating about you 42K DPS to feel good when:

• You used the Bear ult. This is not used in actual trial runs for many reasons, and serve strictly to beef up target skeleton DPS parses or for Vet dungeons.
• You activated Minor Beserk, which artificially boosts solo parse DPS on target dummies. A healer provides this to you in trials so is redundant to use yourself.
• You had access to Major Resist debuffs, which is provided by tanks/healers in trial runs. Again, boosting solo parse DPS for a target dummy with redundant buffs.

Admittedly, you can't just not use Subterranean Assault, but now you have to account for it as well by reducing you DPS parse by however much percent DPS that buff provided you in order to compare to other classes.

Give any other class the same buffs, and remove the Bear Ult to get real results, and all of a sudden Stamina Warden is completely worthless to take over any of the other classes. This is not to mention you provide very little if any group support.

....... Anyway, Magicka Warden is the real issue here. Stamina Warden is the worst Stamina spec, but the margin isn't too large atm. They can still be used to pull DPS numbers that aren't worthless.

Magicka Warden is absolutely terrible atm. Like 10K+ solo DPS behind my Magicka Sorc heavy attack build with equal buffs. Apparently Winter's Embrace was meant to be exclusively a DPS skill line (Wrobel's own words), but was changed in development. Now we have a class that is never taken in raids except for the rare tank or healer

Banana · July 2017

The ice staff changes certainly didnt help either

Vaoh · July 2017

Banana wrote: »

The ice staff changes certainly didnt help either

Neither do the unfixed bugs with Swarm scaling off incorrect CPs or Winter's Revenge having 10-20% less critical chance than intended....

No fixes yet on Horns of the Reach PTS -_-

Insandros · July 2017

O_LYKOS wrote: »

People have been building, playing and mastering the other classes for years now. People have been playing the warden for 2 months. I'm sure one day you will lose to a warden. Give it time.

as PvE, my Warden's DPS already outperform my mage's DPS i have Pre-Morrowind, and had that toon since game launch, i'm not really dispointed in my warden

Mojmir · July 2017

sadly its just like every other stamina class, relying on the same skills, everytime. that pidgeons getting nerfed very soon too

Vaoh · July 2017

Mojmir wrote: »

sadly its just like every other stamina class, relying on the same skills, everytime. that pidgeons getting nerfed very soon too

I wish they'd give the 15% ranged damage buff to the Stamina Wardens (Bow build buff) since it is mainly serving to increase pidgeon spam damage by Magicka Wardens in PvP from range....

Then the Magicka morph could be used to increase overall PvE DPS in a lot of different ways.

We can always hope

Malmai · July 2017

Its too OP...

Mojmir · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

sadly its just like every other stamina class, relying on the same skills, everytime. that pidgeons getting nerfed very soon too

I wish they'd give the 15% ranged damage buff to the Stamina Wardens (Bow build buff) since it is mainly serving to increase pidgeon spam damage by Magicka Wardens in PvP from range....

Then the Magicka morph could be used to increase overall PvE DPS in a lot of different ways.

We can always hope

agreed

Ihatenightblades · July 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The class may underperform in a DPS role ... but outperforms in an off-heals or off-tank role.

How does that "suck" if you can play those roles just fine?

Bromburak wrote: »

A stam DK doesn't have burst , so what he has other strong advantages.
And this is the key how you should play all classes, focus on their strengths.

Did you play a Warden as a tank while benefit from strong buffs and self heals?
This is might the only class that I run with almost class skills on bars.

So apparently this class has a bit more to offer than all other classes.
Remember when we all had to play 2H as stamina class and DW was really bad?

Our class morphs were ***, no matter if Sorc, DK or Templar for a very long time
and we had to build workarounds and ended up with 2 *** class skills on the bar only.

That was really bad design imo.

Burst has nothing to do with not being able to kill or be good dps.

Warden has lowest dps period and thats fine something has to be the lowest out of the 5 classes bu

paulsimonps wrote: »

This thread is funny. While yes their PvE DPS is lacking. They are not lacking in the roles of PvE Healer or Tank. And I don't know what you are talking about in regards to them being bad in PvP. They rock. They get lots of utility and undodgable spamable. Oh, and you can only block for so long unless you are a tank so good luck getting sustained down to hell, especially if they combo that with resource poisons. And they got good burst with the shalks, if they line it up well. And while not used too often, the Frozen Gate can be devastating in seige fights. Its range is devastating, pull em out one by one and watch them get nuked.

Dude come on be real here stam nightblade destroys stam warden dont play dumb.

A stam sorc DESTORYS stam warden

A stam DK has better sustain better dps and better class passives which makes that better.

Stam templar DESTROYS stam warden

So ya you might think your stam warden is awesome and cool and all but it still under performs.

A warden buff will make many happy and not close to as many disappointed so its a win win for ZoS

Lylith · July 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Spam cliff racer. That's all you need as a warden

good way to get killed.

that said, i think wardens need some love.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · July 2017

I REALLY wish they hadn't changed winter's embrace to a tank line. That's where I believe they messed up and you can tell by how much of a mess that line is.

They really crushed so many people's dreams of an ice mage (including mine) and in return we got nothing to write home about. The only skills I bother with is ice fortress and winters revenge.

paulsimonps · July 2017

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The class may underperform in a DPS role ... but outperforms in an off-heals or off-tank role.

How does that "suck" if you can play those roles just fine?

Bromburak wrote: »

A stam DK doesn't have burst , so what he has other strong advantages.
And this is the key how you should play all classes, focus on their strengths.

Did you play a Warden as a tank while benefit from strong buffs and self heals?
This is might the only class that I run with almost class skills on bars.

So apparently this class has a bit more to offer than all other classes.
Remember when we all had to play 2H as stamina class and DW was really bad?

Our class morphs were ***, no matter if Sorc, DK or Templar for a very long time
and we had to build workarounds and ended up with 2 *** class skills on the bar only.

That was really bad design imo.

Burst has nothing to do with not being able to kill or be good dps.

Warden has lowest dps period and thats fine something has to be the lowest out of the 5 classes bu

paulsimonps wrote: »

This thread is funny. While yes their PvE DPS is lacking. They are not lacking in the roles of PvE Healer or Tank. And I don't know what you are talking about in regards to them being bad in PvP. They rock. They get lots of utility and undodgable spamable. Oh, and you can only block for so long unless you are a tank so good luck getting sustained down to hell, especially if they combo that with resource poisons. And they got good burst with the shalks, if they line it up well. And while not used too often, the Frozen Gate can be devastating in seige fights. Its range is devastating, pull em out one by one and watch them get nuked.

Dude come on be real here stam nightblade destroys stam warden dont play dumb.

A stam sorc DESTORYS stam warden

A stam DK has better sustain better dps and better class passives which makes that better.

Stam templar DESTROYS stam warden

So ya you might think your stam warden is awesome and cool and all but it still under performs.

A warden buff will make many happy and not close to as many disappointed so its a win win for ZoS

wow you do love using that word don't you. Wardens are not as bad as you think. They won't get "DESTROYED" but its word vs word so meh. Stam nightblades are proc tards atm and we will see what happens next update. Sorcs are not much different than wardens on stamina toons so not sure why you think them so superior. Templars don't have that much going for them stamina wise so not sure how they would "DESTROY" them. And yea DK's are strong, but play your cards right and a Warden might just win the day there too. In PvP player skill means a lot too you know.

Vaoh · July 2017

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

I REALLY wish they hadn't changed winter's embrace to a tank line. That's where I believe they messed up and you can tell by how much of a mess that line is.

They really crushed so many people's dreams of an ice mage (including mine) and in return we got nothing to write home about. The only skills I bother with is ice fortress and winters revenge.

^

I can only imagine what skills were planned. Probably some sort of spammable ice arrow for DPS, a strong single target Ice DoT, etc.

Not anymore

Leogon · July 2017

Funny 'cuz my warden has been destroying people left and right. 1 v 1 and 1 v X. There are no weak classes, only weak players.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

I REALLY wish they hadn't changed winter's embrace to a tank line. That's where I believe they messed up and you can tell by how much of a mess that line is.

They really crushed so many people's dreams of an ice mage (including mine) and in return we got nothing to write home about. The only skills I bother with is ice fortress and winters revenge.

^

I can only imagine what skills were planned. Probably some sort of spammable ice arrow for DPS, a strong single target Ice DoT, etc.

Not anymore

One thing I remain critical of ZoS about is the rework to the frost element. I understand they wanted to increase build diversity but they didn't have to do that and honestly, no one was asking for ice to be changed in such a matter. Yes, people thought the ice element was useless but that's because it had no decent effect to compare to the other options. Ironically enough, it remains a useless element. (Ha)

There's plenty of choices they could have made but they made a gamble and failed. Not one tank I've ever grouped with past normal dungeons has used an ice staff and for good reason.

Magicka Wardens were robbed from a good potential magicka line and stamina and tank toons were robbed from a skill line that could have been tailored towards that play style (animal companions). The Warden class as a whole was robbed from a good player base bc now no one wants to bother with them unless you're healing.

Roovin · July 2017

No they don't

ThePrinceOfBargains · July 2017

Ehh. You're probably right. I find myself gravitating away from Warden skills. All except the bear, bird of prey, and the lotus flower now. I miss being a Nightblade. If I could switch classes, I probably would. ~Pepper

SilverIce58 · July 2017

It sounds like you're basically saying buff warden or delete it, which sure it should be buffed, at least if you don't know how to use it. But my Ice tank warden is honestly pretty good for things like CC or even AoE, which imo goes hand-in-hand for him.

Strider_Roshin · July 2017

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Spam cliff racer. That's all you need as a warden

Doesnt work against me lol

It's a free kill against medium armor.

idk · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

You can't expect a "jack of all trades" class to excel against classes that are designed to excel at one role primarily.

You can't have it all.

Every class except Warden can DPS. It is also not desired for other roles.

@Vaoh

Please look at the parses I linked above for Wardens. Wardens can dps, unless one considers 42k completely self buffed, not even a tank providing major fracture to be poor dps.

Sorry to break it to you, but that parse was not impressive in the slightest. Stop gloating about you 42K DPS to feel good when:

• You used the Bear ult. This is not used in actual trial runs for many reasons, and serve strictly to beef up target skeleton DPS parses or for Vet dungeons.
• You activated Minor Beserk, which artificially boosts solo parse DPS on target dummies. A healer provides this to you in trials so is redundant to use yourself.
• You had access to Major Resist debuffs, which is provided by tanks/healers in trial runs. Again, boosting solo parse DPS for a target dummy with redundant buffs.

Admittedly, you can't just not use Subterranean Assault, but now you have to account for it as well by reducing you DPS parse by however much percent DPS that buff provided you in order to compare to other classes.

Give any other class the same buffs, and remove the Bear Ult to get real results, and all of a sudden Stamina Warden is completely worthless to take over any of the other classes. This is not to mention you provide very little if any group support.

....... Anyway, Magicka Warden is the real issue here. Stamina Warden is the worst Stamina spec, but the margin isn't too large atm. They can still be used to pull DPS numbers that aren't worthless.

Magicka Warden is absolutely terrible atm. Like 10K+ solo DPS behind my Magicka Sorc heavy attack build with equal buffs. Apparently Winter's Embrace was meant to be exclusively a DPS skill line (Wrobel's own words), but was changed in development. Now we have a class that is never taken in raids except for the rare tank or healer

So you did not bother to look at the other link, it contains another 40k+ parse and does not use the bear, So the bear comment is irrelevant.
The Minor Beserk comment is seems highly inappropriate. It is a class that can provide it to themselves and also requires time to provide that buff. It is not different that a NB using the skill, which is normal and common to use in a PvE raid build. If they would use it in a raid build there is zero reason they should not be using it in a parse. (Part of NB raid builds the NB is providing themselves the same buff, while in the raid)

In fact, Bird of Prey does not thing for the Warden than to provide that buff which is time that would have been used to cast another DPS skill. Does not seem right one would scold the use of any self buff. Further, it does provide them with another buff worth using.

Say what you want, but it is truly does not hold up.

Keep_Door · July 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Spam cliff racer. That's all you need as a warden

The only time cliff racer is OP is when you are a glass cannon gankblade that relys on shuffle and dodge roll. Any other time its a mediocre spammable skill.

Morgul667 · July 2017

As all classes, you find decent and good opponents in cyrodill as well as beginners that tickle you with their skills.

I faced some pretty annoying wardens and they're a new class. Time may reveal all its potential.

PVE they seem low though but I dont use one yet, so I cant say for sure.

Artis · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

• NBs are like Sorcs, except they put out a bit less AoE DPS. However, Magicka NBs provide nice offheals. NBs as a whole provide decent group utility, access to high Major Expedition uptime which can help with positioning, and easier sustain. They aren't really worth taking for Tanks, and make okay Healers.

NBs have lower DPS, true. But no, they don't provide decent group utility. Engulfing Flames is group utility. Chains is group utility. Shards is group utility. Liquid lightning is group utility. NBs have what? Minor Savagery? That's nothing compared to providing synergies for Alkosh, off-balance, and sustain.

And off heals? Are you talking about endgame? Because off heals would be ok if NBs ran FH+refreshing path and used Soul Siphon for the ultimate. But no one does that, because it would mean even less DPS and they are already meh. The only choice they have that doesn't affect their DPS is FH vs SS. And no, FH hot is not that great compared to actual heals. Not worth bringing a NB just because of it (not to mention that most NB would go with another morph anyway so they have more survivability. Also, it is likely that in HotR NBs will have to run FP instead of SS/FH anyway).

Why have more than 1 NB if you can bring more of another class? And if have 1 NB at all for that minor savagery - why not stam NB who deals way more DPS? And then what offheals are there? Vigor? Nothing that another stam build can't have.

Or maybe I didn't understand what you meant? I assumed you were talking about mNB because of offheals.

Barbaran · July 2017

theres good dps wardens. got buddys ive sren nuke guys with theirs. dont rely on youtube builds and maybe youll come up with something good.

idk · July 2017

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

• NBs are like Sorcs, except they put out a bit less AoE DPS. However, Magicka NBs provide nice offheals. NBs as a whole provide decent group utility, access to high Major Expedition uptime which can help with positioning, and easier sustain. They aren't really worth taking for Tanks, and make okay Healers.

NBs have lower DPS, true. But no, they don't provide decent group utility. Engulfing Flames is group utility. Chains is group utility. Shards is group utility. Liquid lightning is group utility. NBs have what? Minor Savagery? That's nothing compared to providing synergies for Alkosh, off-balance, and sustain.

And off heals? Are you talking about endgame? Because off heals would be ok if NBs ran FH+refreshing path and used Soul Siphon for the ultimate. But no one does that, because it would mean even less DPS and they are already meh. The only choice they have that doesn't affect their DPS is FH vs SS. And no, FH hot is not that great compared to actual heals. Not worth bringing a NB just because of it (not to mention that most NB would go with another morph anyway so they have more survivability. Also, it is likely that in HotR NBs will have to run FP instead of SS/FH anyway).

Why have more than 1 NB if you can bring more of another class? And if have 1 NB at all for that minor savagery - why not stam NB who deals way more DPS? And then what offheals are there? Vigor? Nothing that another stam build can't have.

Or maybe I didn't understand what you meant? I assumed you were talking about mNB because of offheals.

I think the chance of liquid lighting providing the procs WoE and the minor savagery NBs provide fits wit the same round of minor buffs each class can provide to the group, Sorc provides Minor prophesy.

Stamplars offer minor fracture and minor breach which I think is the only source for that debuff other than poisons.

NBs and Wardens have the only skills that provide major fracture and breach from range. Yes, limited usefulness, PvP and useful in vAA on the mage fight. Maybe with the terminals up top on the second boss in vHoF and if the NB is on the Reclaimer on the 4th vHoF boss.

But this is veering off topic.

Nemesis7884 · July 2017

i still just wished they would reverse the changes to the ice physical damage passive...but well...

The resist bonus on the ice passive should also be doubled to make it worthwile tbh

Nemesis7884 · July 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The class may underperform in a DPS role ... but outperforms in an off-heals or off-tank role.

How does that "suck" if you can play those roles just fine?

the problem is, the way eso ist set up in pve, i just never saw the need for a "off heal" or a "off tank" cause any class can fill those off roles if needed and they are hardly needed... but i think the warden could be much better with some tweaks, some passive bonus changes etc.... focusing the mage warden on dots and the stamina warden on direct damage also gives you some nice variety

StormWylf · July 2017

Not sure it's connected, but every group I was in (yes I know anecdotal evidence is weak) someone would spam the raid to share the 'Kill 20 (Fill in the Blank) quest. But would always say"Not the Warden One". There were many many Wardens playing, I assumed it was due to a lack of Warden Deaths.