Destruction Ultimate and Negate = Gjallarhorn from Destiny

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

I used to play Destiny, and back in the day many players would post in LFG forums/websites looking for players to raid with - under one rule, any player wanting to join had to own the rocket launcher Gjallarhorn (the most OP weapon in the game at the time). Players would post phrases like, "Need 2 more players, MUST HAVE GJALLARHORN!"

I'm seeing similar posts start to pop up in ESO PVP chat. Here are some examples:
"Need more destro + negate"
"[Insert Color] has more destros... stop playing stam toons"
"Don't run db... need negates" (I assume db meant Dawnbreaker)
"why bear? use dest"
"more negates please"
"where our destro groups? [insert color] has whole map"
"lfg, have destro"

It's no secret that currently one of the most successful and efficient ways to play in Cyrodiil is to group up, stack destro and negate, and overpower enemies with AOE chaos. ZOS, it might be time to perform close examinations on Destruction ultimate and possibly Negate (or how AOEs, in general, perform in PVP). Nerfs might not be necessary; maybe the answer is buffs? Maybe it's not about nerfs or buffs at all, but mechanics? Whatever you decide ZOS (if you decide to do anything at all), I hope it'll make the game play in PVP a bit more diverse. Thanks.

Aisle9 · July 2017

Not really, the most efficient way to play in cyrodiil is to form small groups with complementary builds, and do small scale.

Trains are utterly useless if they don't have zerglings to farms.

Don't feed the trains, play in small groups.

This is totally NOT a way to push my personal agenda, I promise.

Feanor · July 2017

Negate has only one issue. It's hard to see sometimes, and much harder to discern quickly if it's a friendly negate or an enemy one. I've suggested color coding it like the siege shield skill already does in that the color is a different distinct yellow/gold. If that was done for negate with the alliance colors it would be much better.

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Negate has only one issue. It's hard to see sometimes, and much harder to discern quickly if it's a friendly negate or an enemy one. I've suggested color coding it like the siege shield skill already does in that the color is a different distinct yellow/gold. If that was done for negate with the alliance colors it would be much better.

That's smart. Good call with color coding. Maybe just with green (ally) and red (enemy), though. That siege shield ability might look too similar to a yellow-colored negate (Dominion color).

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

Aisle9 wrote: »

Not really, the most efficient way to play in cyrodiil is to form small groups with complementary builds, and do small scale.

Trains are utterly useless if they don't have zerglings to farms.

Don't feed the trains, play in small groups.

This is totally NOT a way to push my personal agenda, I promise.

Haha it's more fun in small groups, I agree. Unfortunately those trains and large groups are extremely quick at capping resources and keeps, which usually makes them quite efficient.

Feanor · July 2017

Or maybe the new color coded telegraph system could include negate. That way everybody could customize and the color blind people would have a good solution too.

Strider_Roshin · July 2017

Gjallarhorn ain't got nothin' on that destro ult.

Aisle9 · July 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Not really, the most efficient way to play in cyrodiil is to form small groups with complementary builds, and do small scale.

Trains are utterly useless if they don't have zerglings to farms.

Don't feed the trains, play in small groups.

This is totally NOT a way to push my personal agenda, I promise.

Haha it's more fun in small groups, I agree. Unfortunately those trains and large groups are extremely quick at capping resources and keeps, which usually makes them quite efficient.

Can you believe I've never seen a message like that ? And I would join them if I could, sometimes...

Guess you play on NA or on PS4/XBOX

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

Aisle9 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Not really, the most efficient way to play in cyrodiil is to form small groups with complementary builds, and do small scale.

Trains are utterly useless if they don't have zerglings to farms.

Don't feed the trains, play in small groups.

This is totally NOT a way to push my personal agenda, I promise.

Haha it's more fun in small groups, I agree. Unfortunately those trains and large groups are extremely quick at capping resources and keeps, which usually makes them quite efficient.

Can you believe I've never seen a message like that ? And I would join them if I could, sometimes...

Guess you play on NA or on PS4/XBOX

Xbox NA

And it might be compounded by Midyear Mayhem event. Many more players than usual.

Inarre · July 2017

Negate is super hard to see when there are 6 storms stacked on top of it

SnubbS · July 2017

We should hardcap everyones health at 25k, disable the use of heavy armor in PvP and then nerf destro ulti into uselessness.

Neoauspex · July 2017

One destro ult isn't the problem, it's stacking them that makes it not only overpowered, but also the antithesis of the problem it is intended to solve.

humpalicous · July 2017

I don't see a problem with the Destro Ultimate.

1 doesn't cause any trouble, but when people start stacking it hits very hard. That, however, isn't enough to warrant a change, nerf or buff, at all!

This game has seen so many unnecessary nerfs over the years and nerfing the ultimate would be yet another one in the long line of dumb decisions.

I just hate nerfs, that's all.

Inarre · July 2017

I dont think there is anything wrong with either destro or negate, but I do think there is a problem with them stacking purely in the visual sense. I hope that their coming update to friendly aoe effects will help, but as I said above, negate is insanely difficult to see especially when there are storms, seige, healing ults and 12 other effects going through the negate. From some angles it is nearly invisible. I hope they will up the visibility of this ult.

Example: Go to 1:37 and watch for the next 5 seconds (there is music so turn down your sound if that bothers you)

https://youtu.be/ZeaqeQVb72M?t=96

AdicusDio · July 2017

It's utterly pointless to gripe at this point. Zos reads every single message here (they moderate, right?) and clearly don't GaS.

Wait until the next major patch drops (August), and see where the issues are then. One major issue is the siege weapons aren't effective enough. You see these groups enter resource towers and stack, and some of the siege weapons are doing 15-20k per tick, and they shrug it off because they operate like a trial group with solid healers, not too mention tanky builds that can sustain that damage on thrir own w/o the healer even there. No idea what the devs are thinking other than they are pandering to a niche group they want to keep for player retention.

AdicusDio · July 2017

Also, fwiw, IF they steal the resource and THEN hide in the tower, get as many siege wepons as possible on it and destroy the tower. Don't repair them when you have them either if they are using the same places.

TheCaptainJosh · July 2017

Gjallarhorn had no counters. It was simply the end all, be all in Destiny. If someone pops destro ulti, you can CC the user, pop restro ult, or run away. I only wish stam had a comparable ultimate. Besides, eye of the storm used to be much worse when you could not see whether or not you were actually in the ultimate.

Durham · July 2017

Being able to hit a immovable pot and gap close with the destroy ult is a serious issue imo... these is no other ult that compares... stacking and doing this with snares and CC is just crazy effective ...

I run in smaller groups we avoid the destro trains... but I agree with the OP .. the is a problem when people in zone start complaining about anyone playing anything but Destro. runner , healer, and negate and CC'r...

In Keep battles all you see is Destruction staff ults... why because they are that strong..

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

TheCaptainJosh wrote: »

Gjallarhorn had no counters. It was simply the end all, be all in Destiny. If someone pops destro ulti, you can CC the user, pop restro ult, or run away. I only wish stam had a comparable ultimate. Besides, eye of the storm used to be much worse when you could not see whether or not you were actually in the ultimate.

Haha it's not a literal comparison between Gjallarhorn and Destro ult.

The similarity between the two is that their presence is creating a "one-way-to-play" mentality among some players - to the point that we see comments aimed at encouraging players to adopt a singular playstyle/weapon.

Malmai · July 2017

Ure defo playin blues tryhards lol...

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

Malmai wrote: »

Ure defo playin blues tryhards lol...

Cannot confirm nor deny. I removed the specific colors mentioned in every comment

Surak73 · July 2017

humpalicous wrote: »

I don't see a problem with the Destro Ultimate.

1 doesn't cause any trouble, but when people start stacking it hits very hard. That, however, isn't enough to warrant a change, nerf or buff, at all!

There is no need to nerf the ultimate: just nerf the stacking of them. Let's say, 1st destro eye hits for 100% of its tooltip; 2nd eye in same spot hits only for 33% of tooltip; 3rd hits for 11%, and so on. So you would have to coordinate 3 destro ultimates for only a 44% more than a single ulti; it should discourage such playstyle.

ParaNostram · July 2017

I have literally never seen things said like what OP is saying PvP chat is filled with.

Vaoh · July 2017

Surak73 wrote: »

humpalicous wrote: »

I don't see a problem with the Destro Ultimate.

1 doesn't cause any trouble, but when people start stacking it hits very hard. That, however, isn't enough to warrant a change, nerf or buff, at all!

There is no need to nerf the ultimate: just nerf the stacking of them. Let's say, 1st destro eye hits for 100% of its tooltip; 2nd eye in same spot hits only for 33% of tooltip; 3rd hits for 11%, and so on. So you would have to coordinate 3 destro ultimates for only a 44% more than a single ulti; it should discourage such playstyle.

We already have something just like this. It's called AoE Caps, and is the most horrible and hated feature in the game by the vast majority of the playerbase for ruining PvP.

Your solution is to help ego-driven 1vXers survive standing in a zerg's stacked Destro Ult. If you implement a second cap for Destro Ult in particular, you cause two issues:
• Zergs become unkillable because not even Destro Ults will make their health move. Stacking as many players as possible will truly lead to invincibility, since Destro Ult will be completely trash whereas healing has only gotten stronger. One Destro Ult does exactly zero damage against any decent group.
• You leave room for serious sabotage. Have a player from one faction follow around the top groups on another faction, and have extremely low damage, then pop your Destro Ult before them to gain the 100% damage on your weak Destro Ult while their powerful Destro Ults have the damage they deal cut almost completely.

If you want to be a 1vXer in a Group vs Group environment, prepare to get slaughtered. The game has changed dramatically overtime and has chosen to balance around PvE and Group PvP, rather than only 1vX PvP. That's just how it is. Asking for a 250ult cost ability to become useless because you jumped into a zerg and got rolled over is ridiculous. 1vXing was cool a year ago because there were far more bad players and it wasn't based on cheesy procs and such. No one cares anymore because PvP is totally different now from how it was a year ago.

Alrhough I hate Eye of the Storm, the solution isn't to make it useless. Changes to group survivability need to happen before that Ult can be made weak or removed now. We could also just leave it as is and accept it. I find it doesn't even hurt me much in No CP as well, though I also do not play as a Vamp.

lasertooth · July 2017

A group with multiple destro ulti's can be countered by a group with negates and solid healers.

You can negate a negate. You can ulti-heal your team through a storm.

The storms stack, but so do the heals.

I like the destro ultimates. It has made my job as a pvp healer relevant and appreciated. Positioning is crucial. I stay away from the other healers. If one healer is negated, chances are the other healers are not.

The destro ultimate has made pvp fun again.

GrumpyDuckling · July 2017

ParaNostram wrote: »

I have literally never seen things said like what OP is saying PvP chat is filled with.

I did not say "filled with." Read the first post.

Megabear · July 2017

Stacked Destro can be negated by organized group of players. Zerg however will wipe very quickly. Zerg even makes things easier by being baited into narrow area, only to retreat as quickly as they can.

Wing · July 2017

any time any skill or aoe is based of the CASTER its going to be broken and abused.

think of them

-impulse
-steel tornado
-bats
-proxy det
-eye of the storm

most of that list has been nerfed, one still remains.

these are not zerg fighting tools, they are tools of the zerg, they stack and spam self target aoe, period.

nobody complained about inevitable det, or elemental rage.

STOP making point blank AoE's and you will severely nerf the zerg, they are not for pve obviously as the AI is easy enough to group up and burn down.

seriously they could even be stronger if they were not pbaoe. get rid of them or change them, remove the zerg tools.

or as a test, make veil of blades, nova, shifting standard, and negate pbaoe abilities, then WATCH THE SALT and cries for nerfs.

BlazingDynamo · July 2017

Lfg must be max light, must have soloed all raids must have sleeper NO SQUIKS. Doing challenege mode KNOW WHAT TO DO

Oh Destiny..

Surak73 · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

humpalicous wrote: »

I don't see a problem with the Destro Ultimate.

1 doesn't cause any trouble, but when people start stacking it hits very hard. That, however, isn't enough to warrant a change, nerf or buff, at all!

There is no need to nerf the ultimate: just nerf the stacking of them. Let's say, 1st destro eye hits for 100% of its tooltip; 2nd eye in same spot hits only for 33% of tooltip; 3rd hits for 11%, and so on. So you would have to coordinate 3 destro ultimates for only a 44% more than a single ulti; it should discourage such playstyle.

We already have something just like this. It's called AoE Caps, and is the most horrible and hated feature in the game by the vast majority of the playerbase for ruining PvP.

Your solution is to help ego-driven 1vXers survive standing in a zerg's stacked Destro Ult. If you implement a second cap for Destro Ult in particular, you cause two issues:
• Zergs become unkillable because not even Destro Ults will make their health move. Stacking as many players as possible will truly lead to invincibility, since Destro Ult will be completely trash whereas healing has only gotten stronger. One Destro Ult does exactly zero damage against any decent group.
• You leave room for serious sabotage. Have a player from one faction follow around the top groups on another faction, and have extremely low damage, then pop your Destro Ult before them to gain the 100% damage on your weak Destro Ult while their powerful Destro Ults have the damage they deal cut almost completely.

If you want to be a 1vXer in a Group vs Group environment, prepare to get slaughtered. The game has changed dramatically overtime and has chosen to balance around PvE and Group PvP, rather than only 1vX PvP. That's just how it is. Asking for a 250ult cost ability to become useless because you jumped into a zerg and got rolled over is ridiculous. 1vXing was cool a year ago because there were far more bad players and it wasn't based on cheesy procs and such. No one cares anymore because PvP is totally different now from how it was a year ago.

Alrhough I hate Eye of the Storm, the solution isn't to make it useless. Changes to group survivability need to happen before that Ult can be made weak or removed now. We could also just leave it as is and accept it. I find it doesn't even hurt me much in No CP as well, though I also do not play as a Vamp.

As you wish, but the truth is that eye ultimate has been introduced as an antizerg tool, to even the odds for single players, and was excellent for that, like prox det or vicious death; now, it has become the standard zerg tool, the atomic bomb of the poor. This should be addressed, in a way or the other.