Balance patch incoming! Don't forget about bow!

Kanar · July 2017

I think that ranged should deal less damage, however it's unfair to apply that rule to just bows. Magicka outperforms stamina, and it's ranged. Between magicka being capable of higher DPS, and being ranged so it doesn't have to deal with boss mechanics, it is the clear winner.

Bow base weapon damage being so low is a problem, but fixing that would actually be a nerf to the support bow configuration (DW/bow). Stamina DPS biggest damage ability is endless hail, which we shoot on the bow bar and then switch to DW bar so it's damage is buffed by higher base DW weapon damage. Fixing this by raising base bow damage and lowering the endless hail damage modifier will actually nerf stamina DPS.

DDuke · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

He's not so different from you then one might add. You just acknowledge what falls into your category of view and what says what you are claiming. Your perception is main bow as weapon is too weak. That may be so. But you completely discard anyone saying buffs must be done very warily because it can be OP very quickly.

Well, considering I practically pioneered competitive bow PvP builds in this game back in 2014 (back when everyone called the game "Elder Staves Online") and I've tested bow every patch ever since they became unviable (somewhere around the Battle Spirit update, which was the last nail in the coffin) - I'd say I have a fairly good idea of how to balance them (not "make them op").
At the very least a better idea than someone who plays a magicka sorcerer.

I even take the time to explain these points with math, logic & common sense.

At which point can you (and the other few sorcs in this thread) atleast try to see things from the other perspective? Or at the very least prove me wrong first on any point so we can discuss this productively.

Some points that need clarification (and I'll try to make these as clear as possible):

1. STEVIL above seems to think that bow shouldn't be equally competitive with 2H & DW, because then (hypothetically) no one would use 2H or DW.
He seems to disregard the fact that half the magicka builds are ranged and already perform better in PvP than melee stamina builds.
The other half are melee magicka builds, which also do fine in PvP - how do these exist then, given the previous logic that DW & 2H users would all start using bow if ranged stamina became viable?
Why do melee magicka builds exist alongside ranged magicka builds, but the same is supposedly impossible for stamina counterparts?

2. You mention that snipe could easily become "op" if it was instant cast - but somehow instant cast frag is fine, even when it has the stronger framework of bursty, undodgeable sorc skills that support the burst it does. That is a double standard if I've ever seen one.

That said, I do not support having Snipe completely instant cast - not without scaling down the damage it deals (atleast in melee range).
If it was instant cast, it should deal less damage than Surprise Attack in melee range (with 5x Hawk Eye stacks), but 10-20% more from max range.

That said, if it had a proc chance to became instant i.e. Frags, it should absolutely deal equal dmg & even more if max range & 5x Hawk Eye stacks.

Another simple alternative would be keeping the cast time, but shortening the travel time of the projectile significantly so that even good players would struggle to dodge/block it, and removing movement speed "snare" while casting it.

Joy_Division · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

You argue the same way. Worse. You go as far to say have "no right" to complain about skills because they play a class you perceive as OP.

People have right to express their opinions on these forums without being berated.

SodanTok · July 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

The point is crystal frag is a proc and not a spammable, and have a visual indicator before you use it.

Also, having a bow is used because it's give major speed buff and because of Poison injection, a pretty good skill.

How much is snipe tooltip damage with a buffed decent non proc build ? I only see 15k+ in my recap, but I would like to know if it's a "special build" or just a noob spamming it whitout knowing what it does.

Tell me how big it is

As big as dizzy swing and unprocced crystal frag
//edit: dizzy swing would have higher tooltip because of 2H weapon damage

Also can we move away from snipe. While it is very problematic skill because it is almost useless outside of zerg and gank and with Miat addon, it is barely small part of everything that is wrong with bow... like tooltip of vigor being 1-2k less than same build on 2H

@STEVIL why is anybody playing melee stamina at all when they can play ranged magicka because range is such a huge advantage

The difference between magica and stamina would be for instance having more stamina for cc, block and dodge all of which are critical in certain cases.

But again, the calls here are not to raise bow to magica weapons levels - we will note that staff like bow has less base weapon damage than 2h.

So, again you avoid the question - if i can get the same performance levels - not sub-par - as 2h/bow and dw/bow with bow/bow and not be shackled to close range and not have to spend on two-skill lines, why would we need dw or 2h?

Right now with 2h/bow and dw/bow being both very strong and both outperforming dw/dw or 2h/2h it seems odd to be wanting to buff bow to match the dw/bow and 2h/bow levels and call it balance.

right now bow is in the place of "best second bar" for stamina build and also provides ranged options for where those are necessary for stamina builds. that seems to give it a solid but not domineering place at the table.

Speaking of avoiding question, I am waiting for answer why people play melee stamina or melee magicka when they all can play ranged magicka.
(actually no, I am not waiting for any answer, I would prefer if you just left this thread before you spam it with your flawed logic like LITERALLY ALL bow related threads; like rly... you are like moth and bow related threads are flame, you are everywhere and repeat the same arguments ALL THE TIME)

But to answer yours. Both in PVE and/or PVP staff/anything, 2h/anything, dw/anything, 1h+s/anything builds are working better than bow/anything. You should probably play the game more, your experience is very limited (well, as usual)

DDuke · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

You argue the same way. Worse. You go as far to say have "no right" to complain about skills because they play a class you perceive as OP.

People have right to express their opinions on these forums without being berated.

Key difference: I'm not wrong.

I'm all for people expressing their opinions - but when something they've said is categorically false (proven by every metric out there) & they keep repeating it even after being corrected on multiple accounts... well, I don't know if I could call that "expressing opinions" anymore - maybe we could go with "rebelling against facts"?

You might find this hard to believe, but I actually hate repeating myself. Absolutely hate it. I expect people to understand the first time I write something, because I put a lot of effort in everything I write in order to cover every angle of the story.

In any case, I'm surprised how much brigading a "buff bow" thread manages to attract from the sorc community. Aren't there stronger builds that you need to get rid of, like heavy armor stam builds for instance? Or magicka templar/DK or something - these are much closer competitors for the meta top dog position.

Why pick on the weakest build archetype there is currently, that is most direly in need of buffs (has been for years)?

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi first of all drop your bs tone. Secondly I know bow dps who can pull 35k so it is possible. I don't care about mag builds I play all stam and always have. But if you buff bow to the point where it can contend with 2H or dw you're talking about a bunch of ranged morons running around in pvp and killing everyone at range kind of like most mag sorcs. Currently if you want to play pve content with a bow you can do that. I can easily kill most solo content using a bow. The bow is best as a support weapon like all classes and weapons have certain strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: on top of that if bow gets a buff then you'll have all the mag sorcs in here peeing their pants because stam builds are ok par with them and they can no longer half ass it through content and pvp.

Many stam builds pull over 40k. 35k is not remotely competitive. There are people pulling 47k on NB's. No on is posting Bow parses over 40k since Morrowind, before Morrowind there was one at 41k at that was well behind the top melee but required full range to get there.

Has anyone even seen a bow/bow parse since Morrowind? 40k or even 35k? I'm thinking bows weren't lifted the same amount as melee stamina options after the big changes to additive CPs.

I can pull 33.3k, and I think optimally I can get close to 35k. That's with sharpened VMA and VDSA bows, and 28m range. Best setup I have currently is with spriggan+Hundings but sustain is crap and I'm out of resources when the 3mil target is dead. Running Hawkeye subbed in for either is roughly a 1.5k dps loss and the sustain is only slightly improved.

But no I haven't seen anyone post a single bow parse since the changes. The changes to heavy attacks for bows really hurt, specifically because your heavy isn't actually getting its cast time reduced, so it's less damage and less resources with much longer cast time than DW.

SodanTok · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

You argue the same way. Worse. You go as far to say have "no right" to complain about skills because they play a class you perceive as OP.

People have right to express their opinions on these forums without being berated.

Key difference: I'm not wrong.

I'm all for people expressing their opinions - but when something they've said is categorically false (proven by every metric out there) & they keep repeating it even after being corrected on multiple accounts... well, I don't know if I could call that "expressing opinions" anymore - maybe we could go with "rebelling against facts"?

In any case, I'm surprised how much brigading a "buff bow" thread manages to attract from the sorc community. Aren't there stronger builds that you need to get rid of, like heavy armor stam builds for instance? Or magicka templar/DK or something - these are much closer competitors for the meta top dog position.

Why pick on the weakest build archetype there is currently, that is most direly in need of buffs (has been for years)?

They may be getting confused by the word bow used a lot. So lets simplify it:

There are 4 playstyles in this game and those are combination of magicka/stamina and melee/ranged (lets ignore hybrid like ZoS does since forever). Three of them (when i generalize) are on equal terms and those are magicka ranged, magicka melee and stamina melee. Stamina ranged, the 4th style, is worse than them. You may disagree that they are equal and that is fine for stamina ranged is still more far from 3rd worst than the 3rd worst from 1st.
So the only 2 possible reasons one would go against making the 4th playstyle equal is that he thinks it is equal already and in that case arguing with such person is already lost battle, because such person is and never was (in last 2 years) playing 4th playstyle and attempting to match the other three. The second reason he simply does not want 4th playstyle to be equal to the other three. In my opinion such person should state it in bold at the start of their post so everybody knows whats their stance and they should not dismiss facts to support their goal.

SodanTok · July 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi first of all drop your bs tone. Secondly I know bow dps who can pull 35k so it is possible. I don't care about mag builds I play all stam and always have. But if you buff bow to the point where it can contend with 2H or dw you're talking about a bunch of ranged morons running around in pvp and killing everyone at range kind of like most mag sorcs. Currently if you want to play pve content with a bow you can do that. I can easily kill most solo content using a bow. The bow is best as a support weapon like all classes and weapons have certain strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: on top of that if bow gets a buff then you'll have all the mag sorcs in here peeing their pants because stam builds are ok par with them and they can no longer half ass it through content and pvp.

Many stam builds pull over 40k. 35k is not remotely competitive. There are people pulling 47k on NB's. No on is posting Bow parses over 40k since Morrowind, before Morrowind there was one at 41k at that was well behind the top melee but required full range to get there.

Has anyone even seen a bow/bow parse since Morrowind? 40k or even 35k? I'm thinking bows weren't lifted the same amount as melee stamina options after the big changes to additive CPs.

I can pull 33.3k, and I think optimally I can get close to 35k. That's with sharpened VMA and VDSA bows, and 28m range. Best setup I have currently is with spriggan+Hundings but sustain is crap and I'm out of resources when the 3mil target is dead. Running Hawkeye subbed in for either is roughly a 1.5k dps loss and the sustain is only slightly improved.

But no I haven't seen anyone post a single bow parse since the changes. The changes to heavy attacks for bows really hurt, specifically because your heavy isn't actually getting its cast time reduced, so it's less damage and less resources with much longer cast time than DW.

Bow get destroyed with Morrowind more than it got buffed in last year imho.

The changes to CP calculation greatly reduced effect of hawk eye, long shots and poison injection execute phase.
The overall damage increase (by new CP star or frontloading or simply increasing CP cap) again increased gap between bow and other weapons (10% of 900 is less than 10% of 1000).
The first heavy attack on bow is still super slow, making it worst DPS loss of all heavy attacks in the game. Not to mention it kills hawk eye stack in imperfect rotations or mobile/hazardous combat situations
The best sustain class in this game that even after huge nerfs is still carrying most people in PVE is unusable on bow.
The proc set are significant part of PVE DPS while costing no resources. There are nearly none usable on bow
Most PVE DPS solved sustain changes by switching to the sustain trial set. Bow build is unable to use all three (damage, sustain and proc set) since it has only 11 set pieces
Every (or most at least) stam rotations now include caltrops, that is another skill that is not profiting from bow passives and is affected by low raw amage
Melee trap beasts even with damage nerf got hugely buffed by sustain changes because it costs just single cost of stamina to get two.
And now new changes to traits make one piece of infused and second whatever better, while bow is still limited to either SAME effect of infused or the better 'whatever' (that is not better, or DW would be using both of 'whatever')

This is stuff that everybody using and playing with bow notices in several hours of playing, but if I asked anyone like Mr. Stevil here, they would not be able to name 1/4 of it, mostly because Mr. Stevil was just week ago not even updated on change to usafe of vma daggers, but he feels knowledgeable enough to tell people that are using and researching way to make bow work that it works 'just fine'.

It triggers me greatly when after 2 years of playing bow builds in PVE and PVP I have to 'fight' people that never touched bow main outside of overland zone yet feel free to invalidate my collected experience

Feanor · July 2017

I don't care if bows are top dog for PvE. If bows become the primary weapon for beating Rhakkat or the Assembly General, fine. By all means. I just care about bow BS in PvP. It's not like we didn't have that already in past times.

DDuke · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

I don't care if bows are top dog for PvE. If bows become the primary weapon for beating Rhakkat or the Assembly General, fine. By all means. I just care about bow BS in PvP. It's not like we didn't have that already in past times.

Name the last patch when bow was even remotely good in PvP as main weapon.

I wonder if you were even playing the game back then.

A lot of people enjoy playing an archer character - so how about we make it competitive, but not op - just like magicka has competitive ranged and melee builds?

I don't see why things have to be so black & white - garbage or op. There's a middle ground you know.

STEVIL · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

Actually, what you seem to be unable to acknowledge or admit is there was no need to say anything about the poster.

there is no requirement on these forums for you to describe other posters at all or to characterize them.

as a matter of fact, insulting the poster is generally a no-no.

but then you knew that when you CHOSE to do so anyway.

So, sorry but your jumped to conclusion about folks who disagree with you don't require you to try an politely insult them at all - one could and many do just choose to discuss the points and not the people.

but obviously, some don't no matter how they try to claim they made it as polite an insult as possible.

but thats OK, there is a button for that.

DDuke · July 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

Actually, what you seem to be unable to acknowledge or admit is there was no need to say anything about the poster.

there is no requirement on these forums for you to describe other posters at all or to characterize them.

as a matter of fact, insulting the poster is generally a no-no.

but then you knew that when you CHOSE to do so anyway.

So, sorry but your jumped to conclusion about folks who disagree with you don't require you to try an politely insult them at all - one could and many do just choose to discuss the points and not the people.

but obviously, some don't no matter how they try to claim they made it as polite an insult as possible.

but thats OK, there is a button for that.

If only you'd actually discuss the points, rather than just repeat yours even after they're debunked by:

Facts (pesky little things)
Math
Statistics
Logic
Common Sense

In a discussion, you need to defend your points if you feel you're right about something - not just repeat them over & over ignoring everything the other party says - that's obnoxious & antagonizing.

Feanor · July 2017

@DDuke

Playing the game just fine since launch, thank you. It would be nice indeed if you wouldn't assume everyone who disagrees with your age long wisdom is a newcomer.

Bow is and was always a staple of every stam build, with stamDK as exceptions. Your issue is you want bow to be a competitive main hand weapon. That it never was, I agree. And it's true apparently many people enjoy playing archer style characters, which probably has something to do with the image of being precisely lethal and practically untouchable.

All I want is not going back to the days where you couldn't walk a step in Cyrodiil without having 5 stealthed snipers hitting from 30m away on you. If you played any PvP in the last 3 years you know these days very much existed.

DDuke · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Playing the game just fine since launch, thank you. It would be nice indeed if you wouldn't assume everyone who disagrees with your age long wisdom is a newcomer.

Bow is and was always a staple of every stam build, with stamDK as exceptions. Your issue is you want bow to be a competitive main hand weapon. That it never was, I agree. And it's true apparently many people enjoy playing archer style characters, which probably has something to do with the image of being precisely lethal and practically untouchable.

All I want is not going back to the days where you couldn't walk a step in Cyrodiil without having 5 stealthed snipers hitting from 30m away on you. If you played any PvP in the last 3 years you know these days very much existed.

My apologies then.

If you were playing a magicka sorcerer, I can sympathize - in 2014 bow was usable even as main weapon (I have video proof of this), as you could oneshot almost anyone - especially light armor sorcerers. Although there were a billion other OP things back then (infinite batswarm etc), it was op, there's no question about it.

Then they added the sound indicator later on, then they nerfed dmg & reduced cast time, then they removed "Haste" skill from NBs (making it impossible to land heavy attack at the same time as Snipe), then they removed Camo Hunter dmg etc etc.. and final nail in the coffin: Battle Spirit - can't burst anyone with bow anymore, and you need DW or 2H to apply any kind of pressure since snipe is practically unusable atm after the opener.

What I'd like to see is a competitive bow - but not one that instagibs anyone but 30k+ health heavy armor users.

As for the snipes coming in from 30m+ away, all it takes is one dodge and they all miss - but I believe people wouldn't be using it as much if other bow skills besides PI were worth using and could secure kills.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Playing the game just fine since launch, thank you. It would be nice indeed if you wouldn't assume everyone who disagrees with your age long wisdom is a newcomer.

Bow is and was always a staple of every stam build, with stamDK as exceptions. Your issue is you want bow to be a competitive main hand weapon. That it never was, I agree. And it's true apparently many people enjoy playing archer style characters, which probably has something to do with the image of being precisely lethal and practically untouchable.

All I want is not going back to the days where you couldn't walk a step in Cyrodiil without having 5 stealthed snipers hitting from 30m away on you. If you played any PvP in the last 3 years you know these days very much existed.

This is a perfect example of a straw man argument.

No one here has asked for increased range or power on Snipe. No one asked or is suggesting increasing ganking potential. Everyone that has asked for changes to snipe has suggested it take a damage nerf or adjustment to its function in order to prevent it becoming too powerful for ganking.

SodanTok · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Playing the game just fine since launch, thank you. It would be nice indeed if you wouldn't assume everyone who disagrees with your age long wisdom is a newcomer.

Bow is and was always a staple of every stam build, with stamDK as exceptions. Your issue is you want bow to be a competitive main hand weapon. That it never was, I agree. And it's true apparently many people enjoy playing archer style characters, which probably has something to do with the image of being precisely lethal and practically untouchable.

All I want is not going back to the days where you couldn't walk a step in Cyrodiil without having 5 stealthed snipers hitting from 30m away on you. If you played any PvP in the last 3 years you know these days very much existed.

I can assure you nobody wants to buff bow ganking. On the contrary, at least for me, I would even sold the last scraps of viability of snipe as ganking tool to get tool useful in combat. Not that I care too much now, since I replaced it with cliff racer, but on all other builds it still the only tool. So I mostly care about overall change to raw damage of bow. Because all skills scale from wep dmg and stamina is mostly based around % to damage (fighters guild, medium armor passive). In comparison, staves have same problem with raw spell damage, but magicka is more based on max resource than spell damage so it is not even similiar loss (and then the staff has also passive that works on every single/aoe skill)

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

Just want to not be entirely locked out of our primary damage skill on the weakest of builds because our opponent is spamming crushing shock in between applying dots.

Currently I HAVE to close to melee on my "ranged" weapon class in order to fight ranged magicka players. Because their spammable completely negates my own and my CC is melee ranged. Really just think about that for a moment.

Xvorg · July 2017

It's simpler: We all want to play Legolas/Hawkeye/Green Arrow and no skill in the bow line allow you to do that.

Let's take Magnum shot: great idea but poor implementation. Being a short range skill, it is very hard to control were are gonna end. A shot to a moving zerg can send you in middle of the zerg in certain situations.

DDuke · July 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

It's simpler: We all want to play Legolas/Hawkeye/Green Arrow and no skill in the bow line allow you to do that.

Let's take Magnum shot: great idea but poor implementation. Being a short range skill, it is very hard to control were are gonna end. A shot to a moving zerg can send you in middle of the zerg in certain situations.

Legolas??

Xvorg,

That reminds me though, I remember there used to be tons of "Legolas" character names back when the game launched - not so surprisingly they've all vanished over the years

Feanor · July 2017

@DDuke even Legolas needed to take his time to aim, so he had no spammable snipe either

SodanTok · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

It's simpler: We all want to play Legolas/Hawkeye/Green Arrow and no skill in the bow line allow you to do that.

Let's take Magnum shot: great idea but poor implementation. Being a short range skill, it is very hard to control were are gonna end. A shot to a moving zerg can send you in middle of the zerg in certain situations.

Legolas??

Xvorg,

That reminds me though, I remember there used to be tons of "Legolas" character names back when the game launched - not so surprisingly they've all vanished over the years

Well this game is "skyrim online" and archers are one of the most popular archetypes (mostly stealth archers) there. Coming here and seeing that they are not just playable, but pvers hate you and PVPers laugh at you very quickly forced them to adapt or leave

Vaoh · July 2017

The best buffs that could come to the Bow are buffs that support staying on the Bow bar. Increasing base weapon damage, and buffing the damage buffs granted by light attacks and staying at a range come to mind.

Also Cutting Dive, which is the Warden's Dive stamina morph, should gain a 15% ranged damage buff to support mainland bow gameplay and give Stamina a slightly better ranged damage option. It makes way more sense this way based on the class archetype and is shockingly decent in endgame PvE as it is. That Magicka morph (which currently has the 15% ranged damage buff) should do something else to increase a Magicka Warden overall DPS.

SodanTok · July 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

The best buffs that could come to the Bow are buffs that support staying on the Bow bar. Increasing base weapon damage, and buffing the damage buffs granted by light attacks and staying at a range come to mind.

Also Cutting Dive, which is the Warden's Dive stamina morph, should gain a 15% ranged damage buff to support mainland bow gameplay and give Stamina a slightly better ranged damage option. It makes way more sense this way based on the class archetype and is shockingly decent in endgame PvE as it is. That Magicka morph (which currently has the 15% ranged damage buff) should do something else to increase a Magicka Warden overall DPS.

The cutting dive imo represents adequate damage for undodgeable ability in PVP. Magicka cliff racer should lose the 15% ranged bonus and then both stam and mag should just get PVE oriented morphs (read morphs that will overall keep the damage of these abilities like aoe splash damage, etc) while the missing physical damage passives returns in some form (maybe in poison form)

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

If gap closer's were turned off in pvp, no sprint stamina regeneration reverted, the bow arch-type would be possible. Medium's power would be back.

Hell i'd argue pvp would feel amazing with these changes.

Solariken · July 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

If gap closer's were turned off in pvp, no sprint stamina regeneration reverted, the bow arch-type would be possible. Medium's power would be back.

Hell i'd argue pvp would feel amazing with these changes.

This would be great with me. Plus no gap closing into infinite load screens! Double win.

Joy_Division · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

You argue the same way. Worse. You go as far to say have "no right" to complain about skills because they play a class you perceive as OP.

People have right to express their opinions on these forums without being berated.

Key difference: I'm not wrong.

I'm all for people expressing their opinions - but when something they've said is categorically false (proven by every metric out there) & they keep repeating it even after being corrected on multiple accounts... well, I don't know if I could call that "expressing opinions" anymore - maybe we could go with "rebelling against facts"?

You might find this hard to believe, but I actually hate repeating myself. Absolutely hate it. I expect people to understand the first time I write something, because I put a lot of effort in everything I write in order to cover every angle of the story.

In any case, I'm surprised how much brigading a "buff bow" thread manages to attract from the sorc community. Aren't there stronger builds that you need to get rid of, like heavy armor stam builds for instance? Or magicka templar/DK or something - these are much closer competitors for the meta top dog position.

Why pick on the weakest build archetype there is currently, that is most direly in need of buffs (has been for years)?

You can be correct and attack their argument. There is no need for calling people clueless or say they have no right to post on the forums.

If you are cogent and correct, then objective people will heed what you have to say without the need for repeating yourself.

akray21 · July 2017

I am completely on board with #1! I'm tired of my class abilities hitting for less when I have a bow equipped. This makes things super frustrating for Stambalde in particular because the spectral bow.

FakeFox · July 2017

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon. The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective. If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again. In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon. If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon. The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective. If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again. In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon. If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

The bias is strong with this one.

Stamina dps will become too strong if bows are buffed? Are you high? Snipe does not factor into current dps builds and no one is asking for a buff to poison injection or endless hail.

Bow can't be viable because they "need" to be melee. So basically you have already chosen your bias as the correct solution before bringing anything useful to the conversation.

One shot with a bow? Who? Have you logged into the game recently?

There is not a 30% speed buff just for slitting bow. It requires dodge rolling to get a short duration buff.

Ability to sneak is not in anyway tied to bows that is only in your own personal fantasy.

Bows give you speed for short duration after dodge they do not increase the amount you can dodge at all.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon. The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective. If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again. In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon. If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

This post is a microcosm of the blatant ignorance and disregard of the ESO community on how bows actually function.