Be careful about your wish, it could become reality. The current death match meta is 3 tanks, one healer. I had a game yesterday, which got decided by time. I was in the winning team and we quickly realized all of our enemies were blockers or heal builds. All we did was evade the never ending healing fights and Spam 3 Soul assaults and a jesus Beam on low targets... booooring!

I would like to add that it wasn't a low tier match either! We had 3 Grand overlords and multiple high ranks in all teams.


Also, play the objective in non death match or loose every match and be a Burden to your team. You decide.

Meld777 wrote: »

@Gravord It's not "avoiding PvP", it's being smart in PvP.

Guess you are also type of person who deploys balista or oil and think he is being smart and good in pvp...
Also go back to my first post and you can see simple solutions how to make this 2 useless and non pvp game modes into pvp while still maintaining objective mode other than pure slaugher.

Gravord wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Yup, punished for pvping.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

How exactly are you punished for PvPing? .

Really need to elaborate it? If one team fight vs another, the team that doesnt fight cap relics or flags easily and win the match without participating in combat. So yes, it is favoring avoiding pvp because objective design is crap,

That only holds true when bad teams are playing.

HiImRex wrote: »

can we just agree that all objectives are inherently well designed, and if you don't see it that's because you are a mindless player that just likes to whine, I mean we all know that objectives that encourage aggression can neither be fun nor tactical

Also someone made a really good point if you want instant pvp action go to cyrodil if you can't find instant action there after riding for 5 minutes to a pvp objective and watching siege engines being shot at walls for 15 then you can always create your own small scale INSTANT action by riding a further 15 minutes and taking a resource and waiting for another 15 minutes to get massively overrun by a 3 bar faction stack

Someone also had a really good suggestion for you mindless call of duty "pvp" ers if you just want INSTANT action you can always get 12 adults from different time zones to agree to a place and location on a huge map and meet with some respawn camps and get some instant action

Battle grounds are fine

No, we cant and your whole argument is silly and low.
Cyrodiil? Mindless laggy blobfest? Instant action? 1-2 hotspots at best on whole map with all blobbers accumulated there spamming sieges and badly designed aoe skills.
Why would we organize special events to pvp if we already have a bgs to do so? And as stated multiple times - if you are scared coward who need run relics or capture empty flags, by all means do so, we wont tell you to organize it yourself as you so happily throw in other ppl faces. We just want simple q button for deathmatch only to play actualy team based pvp.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Ironically, this thread is the first thing I've seen that makes me interested in battlegrounds. A chance to compete with players in real time, that isn't just kill/die/kill/die.. sounds like fun! I'm kind of looking forward to doing bgs for the event now.

(But I'm a zerg-surfing, mostly pve scrub, so what do I know. )

So you agree we should get queue options for different game modes, allowing everyone to choose their favorite and play it without being forced to play what he dislikes a lot

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

I wonder if your lack of understanding is causing you to whine and lose, or if it's the losing that's causing you to whine and forego trying to understand the game mode.

CTF is by far the most complex of the three modes when you have good teams playing each other. It's also the one that leads to the best fights (until they remove sigil from TDM) if you have good teams who know what they're doing.

I am whining?

Either way i win more than i lose and im not the one whining here.

I have enjoyed pvp across multiple mmos for over a decade and for the most part i enjoy it here. However in my experience, eso has implemented the worst bg system of any mmo i have played next to AoC and 14.

Zos has seemingly done everything to make sure bgs are a nonsense casual party side game. From three way ctf and domination to ridiculous damage boosting sigils that spawn randomly. Anyone who tries to preach in depth complexities and strats in such an environment should not be taken seriously on this subject.

As i said, i enjoy bgs in this game for what they are because i do not take them serious and i do not try to create complexities where there is none. The cardinal sin here is simply that in 2 of the 3 game modes, pvp is actively disincentivized.

If the strategies involved are too complex for you then just stay out of the battlegrounds. If you can't figure out how to counter a coward's gear runspeed team in CTF or a fight-avoidance team in domination then you are clearly not skilled enough to be queuing up in the first place and will only antagonize your team... Especially with your "I'm too good to learn the mechanics" mindset.

Gravord wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

I wonder if your lack of understanding is causing you to whine and lose, or if it's the losing that's causing you to whine and forego trying to understand the game mode.

CTF is by far the most complex of the three modes when you have good teams playing each other. It's also the one that leads to the best fights (until they remove sigil from TDM) if you have good teams who know what they're doing.

I am whining?

Either way i win more than i lose and im not the one whining here.

I have enjoyed pvp across multiple mmos for over a decade and for the most part i enjoy it here. However in my experience, eso has implemented the worst bg system of any mmo i have played next to AoC and 14.

Zos has seemingly done everything to make sure bgs are a nonsense casual party side game. From three way ctf and domination to ridiculous damage boosting sigils that spawn randomly. Anyone who tries to preach in depth complexities and strats in such an environment should not be taken seriously on this subject.

As i said, i enjoy bgs in this game for what they are because i do not take them serious and i do not try to create complexities where there is none. The cardinal sin here is simply that in 2 of the 3 game modes, pvp is actively disincentivized.

If the strategies involved are too complex for you then just stay out of the battlegrounds. If you can't figure out how to counter a coward's gear runspeed team in CTF or a fight-avoidance team in domination then you are clearly not skilled enough to be queuing up in the first place and will only antagonize your team... Especially with your "I'm too good to learn the mechanics" mindset.

Im afraid this topic is too complex for you to comprehend...

I don't have any issues with your point that we should be able to queue up for whichever game mode we want to. I'd like that too.

I do have issues with people who are too stubborn to learn how to play, cry and whine about tactics used against them, and the refuse to learn the counters for them. Scrubs.

Gravord wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

I wonder if your lack of understanding is causing you to whine and lose, or if it's the losing that's causing you to whine and forego trying to understand the game mode.

CTF is by far the most complex of the three modes when you have good teams playing each other. It's also the one that leads to the best fights (until they remove sigil from TDM) if you have good teams who know what they're doing.

I am whining?

Either way i win more than i lose and im not the one whining here.

I have enjoyed pvp across multiple mmos for over a decade and for the most part i enjoy it here. However in my experience, eso has implemented the worst bg system of any mmo i have played next to AoC and 14.

Zos has seemingly done everything to make sure bgs are a nonsense casual party side game. From three way ctf and domination to ridiculous damage boosting sigils that spawn randomly. Anyone who tries to preach in depth complexities and strats in such an environment should not be taken seriously on this subject.

As i said, i enjoy bgs in this game for what they are because i do not take them serious and i do not try to create complexities where there is none. The cardinal sin here is simply that in 2 of the 3 game modes, pvp is actively disincentivized.

If the strategies involved are too complex for you then just stay out of the battlegrounds. If you can't figure out how to counter a coward's gear runspeed team in CTF or a fight-avoidance team in domination then you are clearly not skilled enough to be queuing up in the first place and will only antagonize your team... Especially with your "I'm too good to learn the mechanics" mindset.

Im afraid this topic is too complex for you to comprehend...

I don't have any issues with your point that we should be able to queue up for whichever game mode we want to. I'd like that too.

I do have issues with people who are too stubborn to learn how to play, cry and whine about tactics used against them, and the refuse to learn the counters for them. Scrubs.

Tactics? What tactics are those? Stack dodge and speed and ruuuuuun, nevere fight because it takes too much time so caught let yourself be killed quickly so you can run from spawn to another flag. Its not lack of ability to adapt, its rather healthy mentality to not play such crap at all because its not worth to be called "pvp". But payed for it and would expect to get deathmatch anytime i want, not every 30 games or less
Also "cry and whine", thats rather childish limited way of discussing. Nobody cry and whine here, ppl point out valid arguments, fact you dont agree with them doesnt make them whining, only show your lack of ability to comprehend other points of view on that matter.
And please, dont fool yourself, those "tactics" as you call them, monkey could come up with. They are trivial, not complicated and in no way smart. Its simple exploiting fact that some builds are more mobile than the others, which are build for actual combat.
Real pvp battleground is about synergy between team members, building balanced team with healers, tanks and dds (for 4 man eso team ofc its 1 healer and 1 tank with 2 dds), managing team buffs/sets/classes/skills provided, proper dd assisting on targets and breaking them quickly. You might hate it and prefer to build solo sprinter builds, but it have no actual "tactics" involved compared to what it should be and what deathmatch in well balanced game can be.

No. Those are horrible tactics. That's not at all what a good team would run since it wouldn't work against another good team. You are clearly out of your element here, which is odd because I seem to recall playing with you a few times. Perhaps the break in our communication comes from the fact that I queue up almost exclusively in premades and fight other premades, whereas you stick to the solo queue? That could explain why you have no familiarity with domination or CTF strategies.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

I wonder if your lack of understanding is causing you to whine and lose, or if it's the losing that's causing you to whine and forego trying to understand the game mode.

CTF is by far the most complex of the three modes when you have good teams playing each other. It's also the one that leads to the best fights (until they remove sigil from TDM) if you have good teams who know what they're doing.

I am whining?

Either way i win more than i lose and im not the one whining here.

I have enjoyed pvp across multiple mmos for over a decade and for the most part i enjoy it here. However in my experience, eso has implemented the worst bg system of any mmo i have played next to AoC and 14.

Zos has seemingly done everything to make sure bgs are a nonsense casual party side game. From three way ctf and domination to ridiculous damage boosting sigils that spawn randomly. Anyone who tries to preach in depth complexities and strats in such an environment should not be taken seriously on this subject.

As i said, i enjoy bgs in this game for what they are because i do not take them serious and i do not try to create complexities where there is none. The cardinal sin here is simply that in 2 of the 3 game modes, pvp is actively disincentivized.

If the strategies involved are too complex for you then just stay out of the battlegrounds. If you can't figure out how to counter a coward's gear runspeed team in CTF or a fight-avoidance team in domination then you are clearly not skilled enough to be queuing up in the first place and will only antagonize your team... Especially with your "I'm too good to learn the mechanics" mindset.

You are clearly not worth the discussion if all you can do is resort to ad hominems.

There isn't a single ad hominem in that post. If logical fallacies are too complex for you...


Edit: I will admit I was being a *** though. I was taking out a lot of my frustration with people who play CTF as if it were deathmatch on you. I apologize

Thogard wrote: »

No. Those are horrible tactics. That's not at all what a good team would run since it wouldn't work against another good team. You are clearly out of your element here, which is odd because I seem to recall playing with you a few times. Perhaps the break in our communication comes from the fact that I queue up almost exclusively in premades and fight other premades, whereas you stick to the solo queue? That could explain why you have no familiarity with domination or CTF strategies.

do enlighten us on your amazing tactics buddy. truly, perhaps it will change the way we see this modes, if you have a great idea on how to counter the abusive run and split tactics. i'm not even sarcastic here, i legitimately want to know what tactics you would use against the aforementioned "horrible" tactics for CTF and dom.

and, i do have to mention... kind of odd you recall playing with him but not with his healer [hello!] and tank [i'll say hello on his behalf], or any of the recurring assist DDs. solo queue battelgrounds is a bad idea overall and of course impossible to observe and counter tactics. but just so we are speaking with the same information- yes, we play as at least 3 people.
3 people getting pissed when a lovely individual in coward's gear sprints away from all our snares and ccs and damage, because they're built for that, with enough stam to break the every 6-seconds cc and also sprint forever.
sure we can take their relic and hold it, and we can kill them, but they'll simply respawn and grab ours again, since they just have to sprint to it. and after a while the tank will stop receiving heals and we're back to square one. eventually they'll catch the opportunities to deliver.

i digress.
do share with us your tactics. should you refuse, i can safely assume you don't actually have a good idea.

Thogard wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

No. Those are horrible tactics. That's not at all what a good team would run since it wouldn't work against another good team. You are clearly out of your element here, which is odd because I seem to recall playing with you a few times. Perhaps the break in our communication comes from the fact that I queue up almost exclusively in premades and fight other premades, whereas you stick to the solo queue? That could explain why you have no familiarity with domination or CTF strategies.

do enlighten us on your amazing tactics buddy. truly, perhaps it will change the way we see this modes, if you have a great idea on how to counter the abusive run and split tactics. i'm not even sarcastic here, i legitimately want to know what tactics you would use against the aforementioned "horrible" tactics for CTF and dom.

and, i do have to mention... kind of odd you recall playing with him but not with his healer [hello!] and tank [i'll say hello on his behalf], or any of the recurring assist DDs. solo queue battelgrounds is a bad idea overall and of course impossible to observe and counter tactics. but just so we are speaking with the same information- yes, we play as at least 3 people.
3 people getting pissed when a lovely individual in coward's gear sprints away from all our snares and ccs and damage, because they're built for that, with enough stam to break the every 6-seconds cc and also sprint forever.
sure we can take their relic and hold it, and we can kill them, but they'll simply respawn and grab ours again, since they just have to sprint to it. and after a while the tank will stop receiving heals and we're back to square one. eventually they'll catch the opportunities to deliver.

i digress.
do share with us your tactics. should you refuse, i can safely assume you don't actually have a good idea.

Sure. Here's a few ideas:
1. Neither Coward's gear nor immov pots provide any resistance to snares or roots. Your DK and sorc should both slot their AOE roots for CTF. This will slow them down but obviously they can shuffle or roll dodge out, so you need to stack DPS to do it.
2. The main strategy is to camp their base / spawn. By doing this you can prevent them from capping the relic (fun fact on relic respawns - oftentimes someone can grab the relic before it's officially re spawned to enable a capture) and if you're camping their base and killing all their players then it's really really easy for you to run their relic back to your base for a cap
3. Everyone on your team needs access to major expedition. Easiest way is through runspeed potions. I personally use runspeed + lingering health because both have full uptime (46s)
4. As a rule of thumb, against good groups you should never try to prevent the enemy from getting your flag because that's when their rubber will have full stamina. Better to try to intercept as they get close to their own base because if they've been sprinting they'll be much lower on Stam. If they aren't out of Stam it means they're stacking Stam regen and medium armor and should be really easy to soul assault down (can't dodge roll soul assault, can't cloak with relic)
5. If you're worried about the third team, grab their relic on your way to the second teams base and force a fight at the second teams base. If the third team has your relic then often times the relic holder won't join the fight, making it a 4v3v3 which you should win
6. Against good teams, You should focus on killing them first then capping while they wait on respawn timer. This often means that in the common scenario where you each have each other's relic, and you kill their relic runner, don't return your relic until their team is dead. If you return it too early, often times the third team will grab it to prevent you from capping.
7. When you return your own relic, your relic runner should run back to your base as quickly as possible. The rest of your team should try to engage the third team to lock them down and potentially steal their relic.
8. Against good teams, most of the times when you cap you'll cap both relics. The difficulty isn't with getting a relic - anyone with healing can grab one - the difficulty is in getting your own relic back to its base by wiping the other teams. Capitalize on the opportunity and try to get two caps in.

There are a ton more. Feel free to add me in game @thogard PC NA and we can run a few

Interesting ommisions you are making here...
Ad. 1. They are always speed buffed, so you gotta speed buff yourself to even reach them, they have massive amount of stam and regen, so they can sprint all the way between the relics if they wish to and dodge roots if they need to. Soon as you root or use charge skill to catch up your own speed buff is gone and have to be reaplied, on high cost, while they keep their speed all the time. Yes you can stack dps, its soooo much effective on person with coward set+pirate, 60% dmg mitigation whenever they get under focus stacked with high dodge chance. Considering on some maps distance between relic points is 10s of speed buffed sprint, your tactic aint gonna work.
Ad. 2. They can sneak, stealth and if you camp their base they have to dodge you exactly once to deliver...
As for camping their base, done it, youve seen screens, then another team easily deliver without actual participate in this fight, and damn im good but cant be at 2 bases same time.
Ad. 3. So you are saying to counter speed builds everyone need to be fast too... but you ommit that they still can dodge and sprint while you cant do that if you want to keep any resources to actually hurt them...
Ad. 4. Yes, closer to their base, valid point that require you to wait there while other teams run for the win. Sure, can take their relic, can deliver few times too, if you look on my screens its not 0 points from objective on any of them. But non pvp setups get ahead on 1-2 delivers and thats enough.
As for soul assault, its cheesy and nab tactic, similar on my list to eye of crap and sprinters, effective? Sure, by poor design only and im not that big fan of a cheese. Yes yes, gimping myself for doing so, rather keep dignity than abuse fact that ESO devs have no clue about balance and risk vs reward idea.
Ad. 5. Thats valid point but you skip the fact you will take 8 ppl on your 4 ppl, and no matter how good team is, with resource nerf and plenty imbalanced skills (soul assault, eye of crap and ofc proc nab builds that are seen in every single bg).
Ad. 6. Well you see the kills on screens, its not like theres problem killing ppl, but they come back barely after few seconds, with full resources while my team is in constant fight and sooner or later will run low on that. And if we continuosly farm them, our tank carrying relic get progressive heal reduction.
Ad. 7. Yes, sounds good, but its not like enemy team just wave and watch relic runner go...
Ad. 8. That one is fully valid.

Also, youve skipped avoiding pvp and split-capping in domination mode, where actual fighting is purely punishing the team and coward running to empty objective is biggest chance for the win.

And since you are on NA server we never played together or against;)

The problem is that the only way to win a CTF or Dom match is to score points in one specific way.

Let me give you an example of a very good map in Rift, that was both CTF, Dom, and Deathmatch. This map had one control point in the center, one near-ish to either team's base, and a flag at each team's base that could be taken, and kills also rewarded points. To win, you simply hit the winning point total, but you had multiple ways to do this. You could cap points and hold them, you could defend your flag, you could grab the other team's enemy flag, or you could just kill the other team and score points for each kill.

This gives everyone the freedom to contribute with just about any kind of playstyle they prefer. I'm not suggesting we add points to a CTF map (although multiple objective types on one map can be interesting), but another way to score points--kills, even if it is only 2 points per kill, would make it more interesting and would punish teams who stack no offense whatsoever.

HeathenDeacon wrote: »

'Cause... Tactics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5szcjcL1bg

All the NB had to do was run in front of you and grab your relic to prevent you from scoring