CP stars that are never useful

fred4 · July 2017

Spell Erosion
Piercing
Spell Shield
Light Armor Focus
Medium Armor Focus
Heavy Armor Focus

Let's take Spell Erosion as an example. I haven't checked the other stars, but suspect a similar argument can be made against those. I assume that 660 Spell Erosion corresponds to 1% extra damage. Please correct me, if I'm wrong. Now, to get the first 660 penetration from CP, you need to invest 6 1/2 CP into Spell Erosion. Let's see what else can be had for 6 CP:

6 CP will take you from 10% to 11% in Elemental Expert, at which point you have invested 49 CP into that star. Since basically all damage of a magicka character is covered by that, and it is effective against shields and (boss) targets that are overpenetrated, this is clearly a superior star to invest in, up to that point.

3 CP each will also take you from 15% to 16% in Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge, at which point you have invested 40 CP into each. This, again, should cover all possible kinds of damage, and the same argument applies.

Now, how about Elfborn? Let's say you have 50% crit chance, so you need to gain 2% in Elfborn for 1% extra damage. Well, 6 CP will take you from 14% to 16% in Elfborn, at which point you have spent 40 CP in Elfborn.

To summarise, you are better off investing as follows, before you use Spell Erosion:

Elemental Expert: 49
Master-at-Arms: 40
Thaumaturge: 40
Elfborn: 40
Total: 169 CP

As a max CP character you have 41 CP left. This is the tipping point where Spell Erosion becomes marginally useful, but are you really going to invest your final CP into something that works only against non-shielding, not-fully-penetrated targets? You need 7 CP to obtain fractionally over 1% more damage against those targets, or you can stuff another 7 CP into Elemental Expert for 1% damage against all targets. You might also consider Blessed, Shattering Blows, and the weapon expert stars.

In conclusion, yes, I'm overstating my point slightly in the heading, but Spell Erosion is just a really, really inefficient star. The only use I see for it is in stuffing left-over CP in there, that are no use elsewhere due to jump points. Any flaws in this argument? Let me know.

phaneub17_ESO · July 2017

There are those of us out there that get a little OCD about our CP placement, trying to get the closest full percentage possible while also not going over the bonus... usually.

Example:
Apprentice - 120
Elemental Expert - 75 / 14%
Elfborn - 44 / 17.17%
Spell Erosion - 1

The Atronach - 75
Master-At-Arms - 72 / 23%
Staff Expert - 3 / 2.09%

The Ritual - 13+
Thaumaturge - 13 / 6.11%

fred4 · July 2017

I'll try and pick my own argument apart. I guess a heavy proc set user, might not invest into Elfborn / Precise Strikes. A PvEer might not care about Blessed or Shattering Blows. In those cases you might stick some CP into Spell Erosion or Piercing. That shouldn't be the first thing you do, though. I'd still argue that these stars are horribly inefficient. For example, if your damage is predominantly direct or predominantly DOT, you might invest heavier into Master-at-Arms or Thaumaturge.

paulsimonps · July 2017

Spell Erosion and Piercing have their place, in PvE its 500 penetration=1% less mitigation from the target. A lot of people use it. However, the other 4, the once that gives resistance, they are almost useless, putting points into the other red trees that gives straight mitigation rather that resistance is much more profitable for total mitigation.

100p into the armor focuses or spell shield gives 5280 resistance which equals to 7.97% mitigation, while 100p into Hardy or Elemental Defender gives 15%. And putting 43p into hardy or elemental defender gives you 10%, and then you can put more into Thick Skin and Iron Clad, which gives even more mitigation. Only in very few instances, niche builds, can the armor focuses be useful.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2017

Also in pve land, it is 500 into spell erosion/peircing per 1% damage increase, so it is more efficient then in PvP. A full 5280 is then 10.5% increase, not as good as the other stars but still useful.

dpencil1 · July 2017

@fred4
Have you looked at Asayre's CP optimization website? You can input values like how much extra penetration your group is providing and find the best numbers (which will usually involve some Spell Erosion/Piercing).

Tasear · July 2017

Spell Erosion

Useful for those not blessed by rngess and can't find a sharpened staff. Going to be more useful next patch.

Piercing
Useful for those not blessed by rngess and can't find a weapon.

Spell Shield

Can be make up for some odd amour choices.

Light Armor Focus
Can be make up for some odd amour choices.

Medium Armor Focus
Can be make up for some odd amour choices.

Heavy Armor Focus
Can be make up for some odd amour choices.

fred4 · July 2017

Tasear wrote: »

Spell Erosion

Useful for those not blessed by rngess and can't find a sharpened staff. Going to be more useful next patch.

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Nope. That's exactly my point. These stars are NOT useful, except in very small doses when you are already highly invested elsewhere and have no use for stars like Blessed and Shattering Blows. If you are trying to make up for the lack of Sharpened with CP, then you have missed the point of this post entirely.

Almost forgot, thanks for the clarification on the PvP / PvE differences. My original post holds for PvP, then. In PvE things are skewed to favor Spell Erosion a little more, but it's still not efficient enough that you would spread points evenly into it,. For example you can invest 37 points into Elemental Expert, before the first points in Spell Erosion become relevant.

theamazingx · July 2017

fred4 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Spell Erosion

Useful for those not blessed by rngess and can't find a sharpened staff. Going to be more useful next patch.

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...
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Nope. That's exactly my point. These stars are NOT useful, except in very small doses when you are already highly invested elsewhere and have no use for stars like Blessed and Shattering Blows. If you are trying to make up for the lack of Sharpened with CP, then you have missed the point of this post entirely.

Spell erosion is currently a staple in pve builds, will be more so next patch. It's used in a small amount because of the diminishing returns of penetration itself, not because the node is particularly weak.

Izaki · July 2017

Spell Erosion and Piercing not useful... I almost laughed. They are actually very important stars for any damage dealer, especially with the front loading.

Spell Shield is pretty decent in places where you only take magic damage, like vMoL or vAA.

The other 3 are useless though.

fred4 · July 2017

theamazingx wrote: »

Spell erosion is currently a staple in pve builds, will be more so next patch. It's used in a small amount because of the diminishing returns of penetration itself, not because the node is particularly weak.

So what are you saying? That my math is incorrect? That I have not tested this on a target skeleton (which is true) and am therefore missing something? Otherwise this is not complicated. Based on a PvE figure of 500 Spell Erosion = 1% extra damage, you have to invest 5 points into Spell Erosion to get that. You can take Elemental Expert to 37 points, and the last 5 points in Elemental Expert gave you 1% damage. This ought to be better in all cases.

What you are saying in regard to overpenetration is true, but so is what I'm saying. If not, then please stick to the math and point out my mistake.

fred4 · July 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Spell Erosion and Piercing not useful... I almost laughed. They are actually very important stars for any damage dealer, especially with the front loading.

Spell Shield is pretty decent in places where you only take magic damage, like vMoL or vAA.

The other 3 are useless though.

Hurrah, another one who failed to sit down, redo their CP experimentally, and verify what it takes to get 1% extra damage out of CP stars at various points. To be clear, I am NOT arguing that penetration is unimportant. I am arguing that CP is an awfully inefficient way to get it, because you can get much better value out of other CP stars. Everyone knows CP are more front loaded now. This is true in general, but did you check how front loaded Spell Erosion and those other stars actually are? No you didn't. Please try and understand my original post before dismissing it.

In a similar vain, I am not arguing that spell resistance is unimportant, I am arguing that you must check how much value you get out of Spell Shiield, when you could invest those same points into Elemental Defender, Ironclad, and Thick Skinned. To add insult to injury, if you use shields / Bastion, then Spell Shield only helps you when your shields are down, whereas I believe the other stars reduce damage before it hits the shields.

paulsimonps · July 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Spell Erosion and Piercing not useful... I almost laughed. They are actually very important stars for any damage dealer, especially with the front loading.

Spell Shield is pretty decent in places where you only take magic damage, like vMoL or vAA.

The other 3 are useless though.

Spell Shield is only good if you respect your CP every fight to fit the fight, but if you don't then its useless, as the other trees gives more. In vMoL I would still rather put points into Bastion or Quick Recovery than Spell shield.