Mojmir wrote: »

PUG vet trials,makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine

Wow!! Thanks bro!!! That's the most insightful, responsive, well reasoned, and informative comment I've ever read. Can I get an autographed copy of this comment to give to my child? I feel like you've changed my entire world view and now I know what a terrible, and stupid, person I am. Man, I will never make another recommendation for a game as I'm clearly not worthy!!! Thanks for changing my life bro!!! You rock!!!!

drake88131 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Umm I dont quite understand your point.
Who are those elitists who want to limit your ability to obtain the gear (breaking news: it is easier to farm armor and weapon on normal)? Who is forcing you to pug vet trials? How is it related to having rl job and family?
Honestly.. trying to make it work would take more time, nerves and effort than joining a semi-casual trial guild. Veteran trials are not like vMA, where you can only rely on yourself, in trials everything depends on your group. You might be the best dd/tank/healer in the world, but if your group is bad, you'll be stuck for ages without even the slightest chance to kill the boss. I saw groups that couldnt get past the second boss of vMoL for hours, even though they were organized and prepared. And replacing people all the time wont make things any better - group synergy means a lot and if there's none, there's no chance to finsih the trial.
Communication is another huge issue when it comes to group finder pugs. There's so many people who dont understand English (even on basic level) or dont even read the chat... It would be impossible to coordinate fights, and many vet trial bosses actually require coordination, you cant just zerg rush them like you do in normal.
I'm sorry if it sounds too pessimistic. But the thing is, being stuck in a veteran trial isnt fun. Most of us cant play all day, and no one wants to waste their playtime. Yes, having a job and family is great but it is not unique; I've been playing this game for more than 2 years and only met a few hardcore nolifers, the rest were normal people with jobs, friends, families etc.
If ZOS would ever introduce trial grup finder, they should also add "pug difficulty" (basically no mechanics, or at least no oneshot mechanics)... Or "story mode". Whatever. So people who would participate those pugs wont end up embarassed and demotivated.

P.S. I dont want to sound elitist. Its all based on my experience, I've been pugging a lot, participated in many training runs etc. I'm absolutely sure that pugging vet trials like this is not going to end well. And yeah, thats not because I dont wnat you to beat them. In fact, I'd like to see more people enjoying vet content. And if you want to enjoy it, the best way is to join a friendly group. I can assure you that not all trial guilds have high requirements and are super demanding, a lot of "elitists" (at least on PC EU server) are actually really friendly.

So your solution to guys and girls literally sitting alone...by themselves...playing a solo game is,..that we be required to make friends????? (With the oddball exception here and there)....lololol. Nope nope nope. I don't like it. It's ok you're still in denial like the entire mmo industry it seems.


Seriously though. Re limiting gear...someone will complain that just pugging for last boss is annoying but meh.,,MEH!! At any rate no I disagree. I've been "core" in over three vet trial guilds now and multiple others have accepted me only to boot me when they realize my limited time frame when I can play. I've searched and even posted before looking for a trial guild I can play with on a consistent level after 11;00 pm CST. I'm in a great guild now but we've legit only played one vet trial and most left that one Bc it got too late. And some of the officers don't even like my style I'm sure where as others do...you know like in the real world...which I'm trying to escape... I disagree that one boss would be the nightmare you think it is buddy.

I also absolutely agree more customization for limitations before pugging should be enabled (cp minimums...language...mics...etc vis a vis e.g. Original gears of war multiplayer).

But meh I'm pretty much well on my way to full casual now having beaten everything else and not liking the direction the game is going. Questing can be loads of fun,.,and running in SR runs for people to help them level up is a blastXxx of course before I run a SR run I scream "Leeroy Jenkins!!!!!" Then go straight into the hundreds of enemies with my flabbergasted team following behind!

What? No, my solution is to make friends and beat vet trials with them. I tried it and it worked fine for me and everyone I know.
Because thats how it works. Veteran trials are designed for 12 people, and unlike 4-man dungeons, one-two good players cannot carry a clueless group.
So, you said you've already cleared vet trial. It might've seemed fairly easy with an organized group, but if you'd ever try vet trial pugging, you wouldnt be so sure. Well... First time I ever attempted a trial (back in 1.5), it was a Hel Ra pug, without any communication and experience, and people couldnt get past the first boss. In fact, they started leaving after the first wave of trash mobs. Even "lfm for vet trial, link achievement" pugs are rarely good. And I'm talking about Craglorn trials, not vMoL or vHoF.
I've been helping with vMoL training runs for a while, also joined a few vHoF progression groups lately. And it is difficult with a new group. Even if the group is always the same and there is a raid leader, everyone's on teamspeak etc. I cant imagine the struggle of people who would attempt it with a bunch of randoms. For example, in vHoF some of the encounters require using specific skill - alliance war Purge. What if all healers and tanks in your group arent able to use it? You're royally screwed. And you need more than 1 for comfortable run. Or lets talk about vMoL twins (second boss). From my experience with training runs, if theres ONE person who doesnt understand black/white aura mechanic, the group wont get past the boss. And yes, on vet its more complicated than on normal, it oneshots and people get color change quite frequently (so they need to run to another group or their group wipes). It might sound simple, but you'd be surprised how many cp 500+ players cant understand the concept. And in group finder you'll have fresh cp10 vets who never even attempted any mechanic-based dungeons. How bad would it be for them?
Also lets not forget how buggy and stupid group finder tool is. Its bugged as hell, lately I wasnt even able to use it to port a premade group (it kept porting us out immediately), I cant imagine it working with 12-man groups and with different options. Speaking of those options... Well, lest be honest: people in group finder lie about their role all the time, why wouldnt they just check all languages and experience levels to get a faster queue?

TL;DR: In my opinion, struggling isnt fun and there's no way vet trial pugs would be enjoyable and successful.

P.S. I get it, your playtime is limited. But why would you want to waste that precious time on a fight that you cant win? It will be like this, vet trials arent suited for random unorganized pugs.
And speaking of mmo industry standarts... In the most mmos, p2w is going strong. Does that mean ZOS should add it to ESO?
If you meant raid lfg, as far as I know, its not supposed to work with more diffiucult content. For example, I havent played WoW, but I've heard that lfg raids have a special, very low difficulty and you cant queue for heroic (?) raids. And as I said, that could be a possibility for ESO lfg. But veteran trials are still out of the question.

drake88131 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

drake88131 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Umm I dont quite understand your point.
Who are those elitists who want to limit your ability to obtain the gear (breaking news: it is easier to farm armor and weapon on normal)? Who is forcing you to pug vet trials? How is it related to having rl job and family?
Honestly.. trying to make it work would take more time, nerves and effort than joining a semi-casual trial guild. Veteran trials are not like vMA, where you can only rely on yourself, in trials everything depends on your group. You might be the best dd/tank/healer in the world, but if your group is bad, you'll be stuck for ages without even the slightest chance to kill the boss. I saw groups that couldnt get past the second boss of vMoL for hours, even though they were organized and prepared. And replacing people all the time wont make things any better - group synergy means a lot and if there's none, there's no chance to finsih the trial.
Communication is another huge issue when it comes to group finder pugs. There's so many people who dont understand English (even on basic level) or dont even read the chat... It would be impossible to coordinate fights, and many vet trial bosses actually require coordination, you cant just zerg rush them like you do in normal.
I'm sorry if it sounds too pessimistic. But the thing is, being stuck in a veteran trial isnt fun. Most of us cant play all day, and no one wants to waste their playtime. Yes, having a job and family is great but it is not unique; I've been playing this game for more than 2 years and only met a few hardcore nolifers, the rest were normal people with jobs, friends, families etc.
If ZOS would ever introduce trial grup finder, they should also add "pug difficulty" (basically no mechanics, or at least no oneshot mechanics)... Or "story mode". Whatever. So people who would participate those pugs wont end up embarassed and demotivated.

P.S. I dont want to sound elitist. Its all based on my experience, I've been pugging a lot, participated in many training runs etc. I'm absolutely sure that pugging vet trials like this is not going to end well. And yeah, thats not because I dont wnat you to beat them. In fact, I'd like to see more people enjoying vet content. And if you want to enjoy it, the best way is to join a friendly group. I can assure you that not all trial guilds have high requirements and are super demanding, a lot of "elitists" (at least on PC EU server) are actually really friendly.

So your solution to guys and girls literally sitting alone...by themselves...playing a solo game is,..that we be required to make friends????? (With the oddball exception here and there)....lololol. Nope nope nope. I don't like it. It's ok you're still in denial like the entire mmo industry it seems.


Seriously though. Re limiting gear...someone will complain that just pugging for last boss is annoying but meh.,,MEH!! At any rate no I disagree. I've been "core" in over three vet trial guilds now and multiple others have accepted me only to boot me when they realize my limited time frame when I can play. I've searched and even posted before looking for a trial guild I can play with on a consistent level after 11;00 pm CST. I'm in a great guild now but we've legit only played one vet trial and most left that one Bc it got too late. And some of the officers don't even like my style I'm sure where as others do...you know like in the real world...which I'm trying to escape... I disagree that one boss would be the nightmare you think it is buddy.

I also absolutely agree more customization for limitations before pugging should be enabled (cp minimums...language...mics...etc vis a vis e.g. Original gears of war multiplayer).

But meh I'm pretty much well on my way to full casual now having beaten everything else and not liking the direction the game is going. Questing can be loads of fun,.,and running in SR runs for people to help them level up is a blastXxx of course before I run a SR run I scream "Leeroy Jenkins!!!!!" Then go straight into the hundreds of enemies with my flabbergasted team following behind!

What? No, my solution is to make friends and beat vet trials with them. I tried it and it worked fine for me and everyone I know.
Because thats how it works. Veteran trials are designed for 12 people, and unlike 4-man dungeons, one-two good players cannot carry a clueless group.
So, you said you've already cleared vet trial. It might've seemed fairly easy with an organized group, but if you'd ever try vet trial pugging, you wouldnt be so sure. Well... First time I ever attempted a trial (back in 1.5), it was a Hel Ra pug, without any communication and experience, and people couldnt get past the first boss. In fact, they started leaving after the first wave of trash mobs. Even "lfm for vet trial, link achievement" pugs are rarely good. And I'm talking about Craglorn trials, not vMoL or vHoF.
I've been helping with vMoL training runs for a while, also joined a few vHoF progression groups lately. And it is difficult with a new group. Even if the group is always the same and there is a raid leader, everyone's on teamspeak etc. I cant imagine the struggle of people who would attempt it with a bunch of randoms. For example, in vHoF some of the encounters require using specific skill - alliance war Purge. What if all healers and tanks in your group arent able to use it? You're royally screwed. And you need more than 1 for comfortable run. Or lets talk about vMoL twins (second boss). From my experience with training runs, if theres ONE person who doesnt understand black/white aura mechanic, the group wont get past the boss. And yes, on vet its more complicated than on normal, it oneshots and people get color change quite frequently (so they need to run to another group or their group wipes). It might sound simple, but you'd be surprised how many cp 500+ players cant understand the concept. And in group finder you'll have fresh cp10 vets who never even attempted any mechanic-based dungeons. How bad would it be for them?
Also lets not forget how buggy and stupid group finder tool is. Its bugged as hell, lately I wasnt even able to use it to port a premade group (it kept porting us out immediately), I cant imagine it working with 12-man groups and with different options. Speaking of those options... Well, lest be honest: people in group finder lie about their role all the time, why wouldnt they just check all languages and experience levels to get a faster queue?

TL;DR: In my opinion, struggling isnt fun and there's no way vet trial pugs would be enjoyable and successful.

P.S. I get it, your playtime is limited. But why would you want to waste that precious time on a fight that you cant win? It will be like this, vet trials arent suited for random unorganized pugs.
And speaking of mmo industry standarts... In the most mmos, p2w is going strong. Does that mean ZOS should add it to ESO?
If you meant raid lfg, as far as I know, its not supposed to work with more diffiucult content. For example, I havent played WoW, but I've heard that lfg raids have a special, very low difficulty and you cant queue for heroic (?) raids. And as I said, that could be a possibility for ESO lfg. But veteran trials are still out of the question.

I agree a full trial with a pug group would likely end in a nightmarish hell. But I'm not saying that. I'm saying PUG by bosses little by little. Did you even bother to read my post? You're rambling on and on about how hard entire trials are? I'm talking about taking it one boss at a time. if someone can't be bothered to look up mechanics for one fight or listen when porting in then sure it will be a problem but you would be amazed what a disclaimer before porting in or setting up parameters would do. You're just wrong here I think. Agree to disagree.

Have you read MY post? I said that you would be stuck on ONE boss for HOURS. I saw that happening, its not my assumptions or something.
Disclaimer doesnt do anything, you'd be amazed how many people outright ignore things like this. A lot of people in group finder dont even read the group chat, and you're assuming they would look up the strategy? Oh well...

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

You might think I'm saying this out of spite or that I just want to prevent you from getting trial gear (where did you get that idea, anyway?), but there's a very easy way to prove who is right.
Just try to pug vMoL or vHoF in zone chat. You dont have to finish it, if you will be able to kill one boss with a completely random group with no cp/gear/build requirements, that would mean you're right and I'm wrong.
The first boss of vMoL isnt even hard mechanic-wise.

Yeah right because that's why people PUG because the zone chat is so useful? Also it's not THAT hard to cleanse and watch out for five huge columns bro!!!! But yeah let me waste my Sunday trying to prove a point so whatever you win I'm bored.

Not every player has to complete all content in the game. Simple as that. Trials usually need some coordination (or at least some prior knowledge of mechanics and placement). It's not so demanding on normal (you can pug normal trials if everyone knows what to do and you don't need any kind of voice communication for this). For vet trials though, such scenario is not really possible unless you're in a group that has been playing together for so long, they just don't need to communicate (but then, why would you need to PUG?).

PS. Example why knowledge, communication and coordination is so important: our guild used to wipe (like in not completing at all, not just wipe a few times and carry on) in normal trials with 300-400cp average... and we had TS/discord as mandatory for participants. There were like 2-3 people with trials/vtrials experience on average. Now, three or four months later, vet trials aint really hard at all, just giving an example.

Now imagine a PUG, with 50%+ of players not having a clue about mechanics, no way to communicate realiably whatsoever (text chat is fine between fights, not during fights). Sure there is a voice chat (that 95% players do not use at all) on consoles, but it's just one platform. Would you really like to wipe for hours with PUG? Would that really be so much fun?

Sure, one experienced person can explain everything and (if people are willing to listen) you might even be able to complete a particular fight. The problem is, the next time you're likely to end up in another inexperienced group... and wipe some more. So unless there is a simplified "story mode" (that wouldn't be such a bad idea), LFG for trials is not really feasible.

And quite off topic: actually demographics of any mmo show, that MOST people are having jobs and families, average age of a player is (depending on game) high twenties to low thirties. Think about it for a while. You're not special in any way. These people do find time to play when it's most comfortable for the majority. It's quite weird to expect groups to change their schedule to match single person. It's just easier to replace the person. I miss most of trials myself (starting 18-19 CET most of the time in my guilds), but I easily manage to complete a trial once a week on Saturday or Sunday. It's 40 minutes, to an hour tops (including preparations).

drake88131 wrote: »

I agree a full trial with a pug group would likely end in a nightmarish hell. But I'm not saying that. I'm saying PUG by bosses little by little. Did you even bother to read my post? You're rambling on and on about how hard entire trials are? I'm talking about taking it one boss at a time. if someone can't be bothered to look up mechanics for one fight or listen when porting in then sure it will be a problem but you would be amazed what a disclaimer before porting in or setting up parameters would do. You're just wrong here I think. Agree to disagree.

The one vet trial I was in I got recruited to help with dps by the guild leader of a guild I was in. She was with a group from another guild she is in that does vet trials routinely, she was trying to learn the mechanics to run them in our guild. They had gotten stuck at the 2nd or 3rd boss in the trial, had a few people run out of time and leave, so I and a few others joined. There was full TS to coordinate.

We tried for 2 hours to beat that boss, wiping every time, before giving up. At least 2/3 of that group was used to working together to do vet trials, and I think everyone else got recruited by someone who knew them at least, and we couldn't beat that boss in 2 hours, with someone experienced with the mechanics giving specific instructions. I'm not optimistic that a PUG group could have done it, ever. I've tanked more than one normal, non-DLC dungeon where the PUG stalled out on a boss and had to give up, PUGs can be a real mix. . .