The scaling system is pretty good right now. When you make a new character, some stats get scaled up to CP 160, so you can complete PVE content or have a chance to kill enemy players, but you definitely notice it becomes much easier after you have fully leveled up, unlock lots of skill points and equip endgame gear.

You actually gain some benefit from the gear and there is a good incentive to make or buy new gear about every 5 levels (PVP) or 5-10 levels (PVE). The reason you might feel it is fast is because the process of leveling is much faster now. But you are participating and benefiting a lot from itemization system. This helps new players learn about different set bonuses etc.

Been leveling up new characters in PVP since launch. Back then the XP was so low that it took about 6 months to reach
veteran ranks. The scaling system did not provide enough incentive to update or even repair your gear and you couldn't apply certain resistance buffs like Major Ward etc. I went all the way from Wailing Prison to VR 16 in the same completely broken level 6 gear, did not even bother to repair once.

Argah wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Or, you could just equip new gear every 6 to 10 levels and it's completely fine.

Doesn't help, a level 5 with max gear has the same TTK as a level 30 with max gear aka no progression.

Just a suggestion... you guys might get more traction for changes if you didn't exaggerate so much with your comments. The only way the TTK at 30 would ever be the same as 5 is if you only light and heavy attack without ever using skills or putting any points on + damage passives.

Besides, if you know what you're doing, by level 30 you should have something that gives you either major brutality or major sorcery. That, all by itself, is +20% damage that you sure as hell didn't have at level 5.

L2lobby.

Leveling through overworld content has never represented significant gear "progression", it's about learning your character. How much stronger you felt as you progressed from killing bears on one side of a continent to killing bears on the other side of a continent in the old system's 1-50 path doesn't really matter. In the current state, 3-cp160 is where you as a player should be getting better, and 160+ is where you get kitted out in all your shinies, and I think that works out pretty well.

michael.albertsenb16_ESO wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Argah wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Or, you could just equip new gear every 6 to 10 levels and it's completely fine.

Doesn't help, a level 5 with max gear has the same TTK as a level 30 with max gear aka no progression.

Just a suggestion... you guys might get more traction for changes if you didn't exaggerate so much with your comments. The only way the TTK at 30 would ever be the same as 5 is if you only light and heavy attack without ever using skills or putting any points on + damage passives.

Besides, if you know what you're doing, by level 30 you should have something that gives you either major brutality or major sorcery. That, all by itself, is +20% damage that you sure as hell didn't have at level 5.

L2lobby.

The point he's making is extremely clear - exaggeration or not.

You and I both know that levels mean very little compared to most MMOs - and we also know you can get many, many skill points just by going hunting for Skyshards.

Essentially, at a very early level - you can have 6 decent skills on your hotbar and the feeling of progression will be limited - and often it will feel like you're going backwards - all the way until level 50 CP 160.

Yes, later on - with two weapons and the best skills - you will do better, but the numbers could very well be lower than they were at level 5 or 10. That's the problem - and therefore TTK won't be much lower - because once you go beyond the basic damage skills, the rest is mostly about utility, buffs and optimal rotations.

There's no reason to argue against it on principle just because you don't care what the game is like for new players.

As someone who plays on 2 accounts, one of which has no CP, with lots of experimental alts I know for a fact that you guys are over exaggerating to try to make a point...very badly.

There is no question that leveling skill lines to get at the better skills and morphs which take longer to unlock reduces the TTK. You can hunt skyshards for skill points til you're blue in the face but that will never get you Critical Surge or Rally or Radiant Oppression. You must level for that.

So yes, in every conceivable way, a level 30 having the same TTK as a level 5 is just pure unadulterated BS. That or severe L2P issues.

It takes like 3 hours to get a character to 50. I'd say it's easy enough as it is....

This is why I refuse to "play" a new alt up to 50. The gameplay from 1 - 50 feels like a giant tutorial. I always power level my alts using level 1 training gear.

I wish they would get rid of levels so we could just have fun right away.

STEVIL wrote: »

michael.albertsenb16_ESO wrote: »

Hey there.

One of the things I love about ESO is the One Tamriel change - that granted all players access to the majority of the content by scaling them to CP 160.

However, I think it's very flawed in terms of execution.

Currently, the entire journey from level 1-50 feels off for new characters.

Why? Because you keep rising and falling in power due to how gear is CONSTANTLY outdated - and how you will NEVER stand a chance compared to CP 160+ players when it comes to numeric output.

You go back and forth and never FEEL that you're progressing your character. You're utterly dissuaded from investing in gear above blue level, because you know that it will be outdated each and every level.

The first 160 champion points feel like catching up rather than gaining power.

I suggest the following changes:

Completely give up the concept of level 1-50.

Start new characters at what currently constitutes level 50 with 0 CP.

Keep the idea of sharing CP across accounts.

Instead of using levels - make a SEPARATE XP-based tracker that grants skill points ONLY - instead of levels.

The result:

Still very alt-friendly because CP is still shared.

New characters will get the proper experience of a power curve - where they slowly get stronger and gain new powers

Alts will retain the feeling of progress due to the separate skill point progression - whilst retaining the power they previously earned with CP.

Gear progression will be largely the same - except players will want to change at every 10 CPs instead of every level. I would personally prefer changing the gear tiers to happen at 20 CPs instead, though.

RE the bold - as for the up and down regarding gear leveling, it was much the same in the non-scaled game, thios is only different in terms of the labels showing on the character and inventory screens but not the overall results.

Non-scaled: a lvl 20 char wearing lvl 20 gear fought lvl 20 foes and finished the fight in X seconds.
Scaled: a lvl 20 character scaled to 160 in level 20 gear fights a 160 monster and finishes the fight in about the same x seconds.

non-scaled: a level 40 character in level 20 gear fights a level 40 foe and finished the fight in x+y seconds
scaled: a level 40 character scaled to 160 wearing level 20 gear fights a 160 foe and finishes the fight in x+y seconds.

in the above case because the gear is under-leveled the fight is harder and takes longer.

if you did not keep your gear scaled up as you leveled, in the current system or the old, your NET went down vs foes of your character level.

The only change now is the labelling.

As for non-cp characters vs cp160+ characters, well, they are quite a bit more advanced than you are, so why should you match them numerically? Scaling is not meant to make everyone even in every way.

As for your suggestions, i would replace it with a simple mechanic: When you start a new character, you can start it at any level up to 50 that you have attained on any other character. At that start, you will have all the atrtribute and skill points that come with the levels you gained. You will not have skill line unlocked or xp in skills but you will have skill points and atts. So, some questing for SP and skyshards will likely be needed as will combat to gain skill line xp and unlocks.

i do not see any reason for a different skill progression xp thingy. i dont see any reason to monkey with other new things. just give you the option to choose repeat the character leveling sequence or not whichever you prefer.

Ehm, no, my suggestion is absolutely nothing like the non-scaling version of the game.

Why? Because in the non-scaling version of the game you were limited to areas based on level.

With my system, you're going to be effectively level 50 from the start - so you can tackle ANY area. It will just start out being harder - because enemies will be scaled to 160 in terms of base stats. They could reduce this to any CP amount to make it easier, if that's too hard.

That's a pretty gargantuan difference.

The reason you need a separate skill progression "thingy" - is to ensure that alt characters have skill upgrade progression to look forward to. If not, then a CP630 alt wouldn't experience any progression at all except for gear upgrades. That's not fun.

Also, your examples are missing another key difference:

With my suggestion, a character using a level 10 sword WILL experience an upgrade when going to a level 11 sword (assuming it's the same color).

With the current One Tamriel system - the character will NOT experience an upgrade by going to a level 11 sword UNLESS he's very close to that level. Otherwise, the scaling mechanic will DOWNSCALE his stats because he's going to be using a lower level sword than what's expected. Meaning, with the current system - if you don't upgrade constantly, then a future upgrade might actually mean your character is STILL less effective than he was when he was lower level. That can't happen with my idea.

That's another reason I'm making this suggestion - to ensure that every single bit of progress is felt as actual progress, and not a potential downgrade from when you were a lower level.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The gear issue is not different than when scaling was not in ESO open world. The issue, the real issue, is low level players are scaled to high. Their base stats are buffed to much in lower levels and of course are reduced as they gain levels until lvl 50.

The scaling should be more normal to provide them more resistance as they level. Again, the gear is not the issue. It is better now since players can see more easily how their gear weakens as they level beyond it.

That's until level 33 actually. The extra lowbee buff decrease by 3% per level until that point and it's gone at level 34. When OT was first on the PTS that extra buff was visible for the first couple of patches and then they removed the visual indicator but kept the buff.

There is also an extra group finder dungeon buff that IS visible in your character screen whenever you do 4-man dungeons at low levels.

Whether it's too much extra buff or just right is a matter of opinion and has everything to do with how ZOS wants brand new players to experience the game. Most of us may well think it's too easy but like I said, I still see low level new players dying often in situations where they shouldn't be.

The GF buff is not relevant since it applies to everyone who uses the GF to access a dungeon. Even if the buff remains until only lvl 33 my comments are still relevant and the noticeable decrease in the gears stats is still beneficial and is not a real change from before 1T.

I don't disagree. But OTOH, gear as you level is too transient and needs replacement too often. 1T has also created a new leveling dynamic: do I level here now and follow the faction story in order as it was designed, or do I skip this zone so I can get the quest reward set pieces after I'm CP160 and the gear is permanent?

Frankly I'd rather have a new crafting ability to level up gear so that when my sharpened viper dagger drops in FG at level 10, I can keep upgrading it and use it at CP160 without needing to grind it all over again... but that's a different story for another day.

michael.albertsenb16_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

michael.albertsenb16_ESO wrote: »

Hey there.

One of the things I love about ESO is the One Tamriel change - that granted all players access to the majority of the content by scaling them to CP 160.

However, I think it's very flawed in terms of execution.

Currently, the entire journey from level 1-50 feels off for new characters.

Why? Because you keep rising and falling in power due to how gear is CONSTANTLY outdated - and how you will NEVER stand a chance compared to CP 160+ players when it comes to numeric output.

You go back and forth and never FEEL that you're progressing your character. You're utterly dissuaded from investing in gear above blue level, because you know that it will be outdated each and every level.

The first 160 champion points feel like catching up rather than gaining power.

I suggest the following changes:

Completely give up the concept of level 1-50.

Start new characters at what currently constitutes level 50 with 0 CP.

Keep the idea of sharing CP across accounts.

Instead of using levels - make a SEPARATE XP-based tracker that grants skill points ONLY - instead of levels.

The result:

Still very alt-friendly because CP is still shared.

New characters will get the proper experience of a power curve - where they slowly get stronger and gain new powers

Alts will retain the feeling of progress due to the separate skill point progression - whilst retaining the power they previously earned with CP.

Gear progression will be largely the same - except players will want to change at every 10 CPs instead of every level. I would personally prefer changing the gear tiers to happen at 20 CPs instead, though.

RE the bold - as for the up and down regarding gear leveling, it was much the same in the non-scaled game, thios is only different in terms of the labels showing on the character and inventory screens but not the overall results.

Non-scaled: a lvl 20 char wearing lvl 20 gear fought lvl 20 foes and finished the fight in X seconds.
Scaled: a lvl 20 character scaled to 160 in level 20 gear fights a 160 monster and finishes the fight in about the same x seconds.

non-scaled: a level 40 character in level 20 gear fights a level 40 foe and finished the fight in x+y seconds
scaled: a level 40 character scaled to 160 wearing level 20 gear fights a 160 foe and finishes the fight in x+y seconds.

in the above case because the gear is under-leveled the fight is harder and takes longer.

if you did not keep your gear scaled up as you leveled, in the current system or the old, your NET went down vs foes of your character level.

The only change now is the labelling.

As for non-cp characters vs cp160+ characters, well, they are quite a bit more advanced than you are, so why should you match them numerically? Scaling is not meant to make everyone even in every way.

As for your suggestions, i would replace it with a simple mechanic: When you start a new character, you can start it at any level up to 50 that you have attained on any other character. At that start, you will have all the atrtribute and skill points that come with the levels you gained. You will not have skill line unlocked or xp in skills but you will have skill points and atts. So, some questing for SP and skyshards will likely be needed as will combat to gain skill line xp and unlocks.

i do not see any reason for a different skill progression xp thingy. i dont see any reason to monkey with other new things. just give you the option to choose repeat the character leveling sequence or not whichever you prefer.

Ehm, no, my suggestion is absolutely nothing like the non-scaling version of the game.

Why? Because in the non-scaling version of the game you were limited to areas based on level.

With my system, you're going to be effectively level 50 from the start - so you can tackle ANY area. It will just start out being harder - because enemies will be scaled to 160 in terms of base stats. They could reduce this to any CP amount to make it easier, if that's too hard.

That's a pretty gargantuan difference.

The reason you need a separate skill progression "thingy" - is to ensure that alt characters have skill upgrade progression to look forward to. If not, then a CP630 alt wouldn't experience any progression at all except for gear upgrades. That's not fun.

Also, your examples are missing another key difference:

With my suggestion, a character using a level 10 sword WILL experience an upgrade when going to a level 11 sword (assuming it's the same color).

With the current One Tamriel system - the character will NOT experience an upgrade by going to a level 11 sword UNLESS he's very close to that level. Otherwise, the scaling mechanic will DOWNSCALE his stats because he's going to be using a lower level sword than what's expected. Meaning, with the current system - if you don't upgrade constantly, then a future upgrade might actually mean your character is STILL less effective than he was when he was lower level. That can't happen with my idea.

That's another reason I'm making this suggestion - to ensure that every single bit of progress is felt as actual progress, and not a potential downgrade from when you were a lower level.

first bold - i dont know where you thought i compared your suggestion to the non-scaled game, i did not. i actually said very little about your proposal in fact.

My comparison was between the current scaled game and the non-scaled game in terms of the gear causing "sense of progression" ups and downs and that that did not change from old to now except in the cosmetic form of labelling. being under-geared then and now made fights harder and the gains seem less.

Now of course, some might be upset that their tooltips seem labelled lower regardless of how the fights go or may feel better if their tooltips are higher even if the fights dont reflect gains but again, to me, labels are cosmetics. What matters to me are results and both pre-scaled and post-scaled now, under-gear meant less capable in fights.

Second bold on travel - the ability to go anywhere at scaled level is already in the game now, we dont need anew system to give us what we already have.

third bold - any character swinging a lvl 10 sword now who equips a lvl 11 sword now will see a change in their results if no other factors such as color or character levels intervene. The lvl 10 sword was under-geared and likely costing them some degree of base damage. So if this is the goal of your system, we already have this, so again, no need for new system to give us the result you just highlighted.

Your example in italics is incorrect. At most any character level i know of, trading in a level 10 sword for a level 11 sword will gain you some results. maybe there are some cases where the result is too small for you, i dont know, but here is a question for you - why is this character who is much higher than 10 upgradingh from a lvl 10 weapon to a level 11 weapon?

but here is a test i just ran using a lvl 10 and lvl 12 sword - since you cannot craft a lvl 11 anything.
lvl 10 sword for a top tier closer to 100 cp than not character shows tooltip of 299. A level 12 323. So the scaling system did not make upping your sword from 10-12 less useful for a high level character at all.

Now of course it is not as useful as a lvl 160 sword would be.

But AFAIK your 10-11 sword example as stated is just flat out incorrect in the current scaling system.

There are lots of things you could have meant to say but i wont go chasng down that rabbit hole.


As to the final bold, if again you are referencing the "feel" of under-gearing as you level up your character, that is the same now as it was before scaling, so that is not a flaw caused by 1Tam but a factor that has always been there. You can find many guides from early on that emphasize that you need to keep upping your gear, not necessarily every level. as the loses are not overpowering in many cases. Same as now.

The difference now is you always find gear from drops at your level, making it easier to keep your gear up to snuff.

As for the skill progression thingy, right now folks gain skill after 50 (and often need to) by skyshards and quests and dungeons and the like. So skill progression is there if they want to go do it. Sure there is a maximum cap somewherre but by the time you reach that point its likely you dont have anywhere useful to spend skills.

i mean, what is the point of say my cp 800+ gaining more skill points that just add to the unassigned skill points she has now? other than a change in labels - which gets us back to cosmetics? So adding a new unlimited skill point gain from Xp alone - that seems to be a play at removing or devaluing the gains from questing, sharding, dungeoning and even pvp advancing - skill points - by providing yet another gain to straight out grinding.

is that you goal in that part - to just make more skills more accessible to grinders by permanently locking skill point gain to xp?

Again, i am in favor of the choice at chargen to start at any level you have reached with any other character and gain skill points and attribute points as appropriate to that level gain. That should enable one to skip a lot of the lower level scaling issues after the first time. It would seem to address many of your goals but not add-in more skills for grinders or require any new systems or fundamental overhaul of existing parts. it would leave lots of progression even for that "new" 630 alt - gaining more skills, unlocking skills and lines etc.